Downloading illegal movies, movies etc. Your opinion?

[MattSullivan]

Im not saying people will sit around. I fell good knowing I can afford to spend money and support another artist.

[Baphnedia]

Nutshell for me on this one (I've only read Matt's response, immediately above, unless I posted in this thread months ago):

Pricetags separate the artist supporters from the opportunists, much like locks keep most people honest. DRM isn't going to stop anything (if anything make it worse), just like doorjams don't stop robberies.

[MattSullivan]

So, if one of you made a movie, and it got made, or if you wrote a song, or a book, after all your hard work you wouldn't care if people didn't pay to see it? You wouldn't care if less money was going into your pocket?

[Morkulv]

First of all, I would like to say that everyone who creates movies, music, or any form of media just for the paycheck should be banned for ever releasing something. Period. Artists should be supported, but there are more ways to that then by filling every artist's pocket with money.

Point is that media in general is a ripoff. There is just no other way around it. I support quality media, but I refuse to buy a game every week that costs me more then 60 funking Euro's! I'd rather download it at first or try a pirated copy, then see if its worth my hard-earned cash. And furthermore, not every turd deserves as 10 euro/dollar pricetag just because someone worked hard on it.

[MattSullivan]

That's why they invented game RENTALS dude. Go out and rent the game or movie, or wait until someone else buys it and watch them play or watch it, or try it yourself. There is no law on Earth that says once a game comes out you have to plunk down 60 smackers, nor is there a law that says because a game is expensive or hyped, it will be good. it's your own fault if you buy into hype. Most gamers I know ware far too impatient. They have to get the newest games the nanosecond they come out. Often, their expectations are so great, that even if the game is good, it just won't measure up to what they were expecting.

Now, as far as artists who make money, don't knock it till you try it. I'm sure no one here would turn down a $2500 a week paycheck, which is the highest amount I was ever paid. ( besides the $6000 a week I got for writing several television episodes )

Besides, any artist who really earns a ton of money never did art strictly to get paid. What you may not understand, is that in order for some artists to get recognized, they have to suffer like crazy in order to see their dreams realized. They DESERVE that money. Case in point, JK Rowling. She was a dirt poor single mother until she hit it big with Harry Potter.

More often than not, I find that people who have the attitude that it's okay to steal are really just angry that they don't get that kind of money, wishing of course, that they could do the things those famous, well paid artists do. I'd also be interested in finding out where some of your political stances lie. Left. or right?

Why? You ask...

Because more often than not, left-wingers tend to be the party of entitlement. As in, "Give me money even though i don't have to work for it. Slave reparations, minority scholarships, etc. Let's take the money away from the rich people and redistribute it to all the poor people of the world." )

Now, right wingers, on the other hand, tend to be the "lift yourself out of poverty. Work for what you have. No one owes you anything, so don't expect a handout." kinds of people. Where finances are concerned, that's where my thinking lies. The only problem is, both parties have views OUTSIDE financial areas that tend to irk people who favor the other side.

[Baphnedia]

So, if one of you made a movie, and it got made, or if you wrote a song, or a book, after all your hard work you wouldn't care if people didn't pay to see it? You wouldn't care if less money was going into your pocket?

Two things here -

I don't care much about the money - because I am already fully employed (and have job security into the years where I get grey hair). My work, in my situation, doesn't need to make me money (but it's a nice consequence). For my situation, I can easily say that I don't care (as much) about the money. However, there are several types of theft occurring:

Theft for personal use (I see this as fine/whatever - but don't go out of my way to make much available at no cost)
Theft for black market sales / broadcast or other mediums with no royalties (I have a HUGE problem with this - such as when Goldenwolfen's artwork aired on the Scifi channel with no credit)
Theft for recopyright and republishing under someone else's name (I have an even bigger problem with this)

Now, the answer that someone gives is highly dependent on their situation. If they are making their bread off the money or other compensation for their artistic work, then I can see why they'd have a problem with any money lost. Likewise, if the work involves investors, THOSE guys expect that every penny spent earns three to five pennies, and any penny lost = big bad and scary consequences.

The right answer for anyone on this topic is their own, personal answer. While I have said that I don't mind people stealing or sharing music for personal use (specifically mine), I do not condone it. The reason being, if I condone it, what else am I going to be condoning? The pilfering of other people's art - something that they might not want.

For instance, if I knew for a fact that Matt Sullivan doesn't mind people stealing his work for personal enjoyment, then my reaction to someone stealing his work would be 'didja get his permission?'. However, I don't think that's the case, so, if I saw or heard of someone stealing (in any fashion) Matt's work, I'd help line up their firing squad myself.

This is because, for artists who trust their audience enough, we let them into our soul, let them see how we are on the inside - when we write or perform from the heart. The abuse of that might most closely equate to rape or domestic violence. Where each artist defines where the lines of abuse begin (whether it comes from the needs of money, investors, agents, managers, etc), is up to the artist, and the artist alone.

[Scott Gardener]

Most people will follow the path of least resistance. That is not only human nature, that is nature in general. Thus, a music distribution system should take that into account.

Unfortunately, the RIAA had chosen for awhile not to make legal music easier but instead to try to make illegal music harder. Thankfully, they're coming around by working with instead of against iTunes, mp3 player technology, and the like. But, I do have to acknowledge, to use the vernacular, they totally pwned Napster.

[MattSullivan]

Well, they DID try and make music buying easier. You can go out and buy a single MP3 instead of having to buy a whole damn album y know...

[ravaged_warrior]

Well, they DID try and make music buying easier. You can go out and buy a single MP3 instead of having to buy a whole damn album y know...

Even better, there is apparently a site that not only does this, but gives all of the profits to the artist, unlike Apple and the like who get part of it (I think). Unfortunately, I don't remember what the site is, I just saw it on Attack of the Show one time.

[MattSullivan]

Indeed. Now, here's another reason to support the artists you like. So they can make MORE of the art/music/film you like. 99% of the time an artist just doesnt have the time/money to pursue art full time. If they manage to "break through" and are financially stab;le enough to do it they can produce much more art/music/film.

[Morkulv]

Rental? I don't mean to be a dick about this, but there are people on this world like me who wanna take the time with stuff. I can't play a game in just a few days. I need to take the time with it in order to fully enjoy it. I hate to be rushed.

And I don't know about the US, but renting media (and renting stuff in general) is expensive over here. In most cases your even better off buying the movie/game/whatever.

[Scott Gardener]

Making it easier: Yes, ultimately the RIAA decided to work with instead of against the new technology, and like the movie industry with VHS, the former enemy is now a major cash cow. Indeed, It's foreseeable that inside of then years, most music will be sold online.

As a side note, I'm glad that those of us who grew up with albums can on occasion buy on iTunes albums with artwork. For me, having the cover and interior art, as well as lyrics and credits, is the real nail in the coffin for CDs. An 80 Gig hard drive takes up a lot less shelf space than 150 CDs in cases that occasionally snap off hinge tabs.

Renting and taking time with stuff: Part of the trade-off of spending less is dealing with restrictions. Having a copy of the movie or game at your disposal whenever you feel like it is functionally the equivalent of owning a copy.

[Kaebora]

If I am to work for a movie studio or game company as a CG artist, am I going to want people to get free copies of the content that I worked countless hours on? HELL NO! Do I work hard on thousands of models, textures, and animations just to have everyone download it on Kazaa the day after release? If you guessed yes, YOU'RE WRONG!

Some of you may remember that I posted up that link to a website with HUGE amounts of pirated content. Well, the only stuff I was really interested in was the stuff that was no longer availible on DVD or Video, dispite my urges to buy. Sometimes piracy is the only way to see some things. But... if you are downloading the newest songs, movies and games for free, when they are still readily availible in stores, your denying the hundreds of people that made that production possible their fair pay. Eventually most content stops making money, but not for at least five years (and much longer for the really popular stuff).

You say that they are ripping you off. Well, am I wrong to use the money you spend to pay for my bills, food, gas, and clothing? I do the art for the sake of art, but I earn money doing it so I can survive. Is paying the the 150+ workers of game titles and movies a rip off to you? I think not.

People such as Matt, and myself are passionate about this subject because it is money being taken out of our already thin wallets that is at stake when people commit piracy. "Every time you download a movie for free, God kills an animator."

[MattSullivan]

LOL good one kaebora.

Look, we're not saying you should spend every penny you have...but that's the risk you take when you buy a movie ticket or a game. It MIGHT not be as good as you hope it to be.

I assume you meant RPG's, when talking about rentals. RPG's aren't as big here as they are in other countries. Then again, if it's World of Warcraft, i see how that eats up a lot of time.

But seriously. If you want a company you like to be able to CONTINUE making cool games for your enjoyment, then you oughta pay for them. if everyone pirates software, it'll put those companies out of business. I buy EVERY piece of software I use. I believe wholeheartedly in supporting them. Also, you can download FREE TRIAL versions to decide whether or not you like it.

[Morkulv]

[Draca]

[Morkulv]

[psiguy]

Actually, I believe that the artists, programmers, and designers get paid by the company they work for (unless its a freelance per-sale job). It is the companies that pay the workers while its the customers that pay the companies for their employee's work. Therefore, by downloading a copy of a companies product, thats one less purchase that goes to the companies. The companies will feel the impact of mass pirating first before their employees would.

Ultimately, from what I've skimmed from all your posts it comes down to $$$. Thats the gist of what I've heard from you since page #2 anyway.

Is this forum topic hot in here, or is it me?

[Kaebora]

[Draca]

[Kaebora]

So in otherwords, you're finally cornered by good sir. You can't justify that what you are doing is right.

[MattSullivan]

See, this awful attitude of perpetual mooching has spread like a disease all over the world. People like to try and find ways to poke holes in the idea of right and wrong, to somehow justify the things they do. But in the end, it's still stealing. It just doesn't feel that way to some people because to them, these are just bytes of computer data. It's not tangible....or physical.

See, i don't get some of your attitudes. Why in the hell is it so damn awful for an artist to want to make money? You seem to be implying that makes them LESS of an artist. Just because i'd like to make a s***load of cash, that makes me a non-artist? Well I say, screw that. just because I like drawing, doesn't mean I'm content to live in a goddamn trailer and eat Ramen like every other artist I know. I frickin HATE ramen. A friendly not e to other artists...real food tastes much better.

Somewhere along the way, the definition of "artist" went from "someone who makes art" to "someone who must perpetually struggle, and that's what makes them legit"

[Shadow Wulf]

All I can say this, if I have the money or I can get my hands on the copy, I will not pirate it. If its out of my league of payment like a $400 software that i want, there is no chance in hell Im gonna buy it, Im not doing anything wrong by doing pirating it because Im not going to buy it anyway.

Games and movies, I will buy it if I have the cash, its much more rewarding having the actual copy. But since Im poor and cant have all the games I want, I have to resort to copying or pirating it. movies I never really pirate, they are usually cheap enough to buy it.

I try to support musicians, artists and actors.

[ravaged_warrior]

One thing that I've seen a couple of times here is Shadow Wulf's example. If a piece of software is out of someone's price range, the companies won't be making money either way. It's not exactly right, but it's a fairly neutral position for the company, much like my "out of print" example from before.

Luckily for me, though, companies have started to release their old games again, so once I get a Wii, I can get legit copies of these old games for dirt cheap in a way that actually pays off the company. I've already done so for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: The Arcade Game (anyone who hasn't played it is sorely missing out) and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (innovator of the modern Castlevania games... well, actually, Super Metroid was, but that wasn't in the Castlevania series) for my XBox 360.

[Kaebora]

In regard to software, Shadow Wulf, there are educational versions of just about every major program. Adobe even has released completely free educational versions. The only difference is that it has a disclaimer that basicly states, "Not for commercial use." That's what I had with Photoshop 7.0 for a long time before purchasing CS2. You can also get stuff like the educational version of Lightwave 3D for $200, which is better than the crappy locked up Descovery version (trial version that doesn't let you save files).

Unless you are using a program for commercial purposes, you may as well seek out a legit educational version for a tiny fraction of the cost. If you start doing comissions with Photoshop without a commercial license, that's a felony.