the movie "Wolf" discussed this slightly when the old professor said something that sounded like...."The wolf is not evil, unless the man is evil" to pharaphrase it sort of...
If there is a killer werewolf on the lose, then he or she should kill not because of his wolf nature, but because he cannot control his human nature. If the man in human form has malice in him, then that should be amplified in wolf form. However if a man who has love in him is bitten, then innocence should dominate his wolf form. In whichever case. I feel that the first transform should have the werewolf with a child like mind, half human baby, half wolf cub, except with the ability to walk and run, like an adult.... What would transfer from the human to the wolf is the DOMINANT emotions of each individual.
The nature of the human, not the wolf.....
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NightmareHero
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TakeWalker
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I would offer one rebuttal to this idea (which I agree with), though I think it would be far beyond the scope of a movie to include, and that is a sudden bout of insanity brought on by sudden change. As in, the man wakes up for the umpteenth time after having had dreams of being a wolf, only this time he discovers he's actually a werewolf, goes bonkers, and decides that if he *looks* like a monster, he might as well be one. Again, it stems from internal things, but he could have just been a 'normal' person before he found out.
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Werewolf
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I would have to disagree with this, I wouldn't think someone would say "Hey I'm a werewolf... let's go kill something" especially if they are not some pyscho but a rational type of person. Then again it depends on how the person would react to this sudden change, but I doubt a somewhat normal person would all of a sudden be drawn to be a murderer... they might act crazy or freak out but I don't think they would lose complete control not unless they we're already a few screws loose that is.TakeWalker wrote:I would offer one rebuttal to this idea (which I agree with), though I think it would be far beyond the scope of a movie to include, and that is a sudden bout of insanity brought on by sudden change. As in, the man wakes up for the umpteenth time after having had dreams of being a wolf, only this time he discovers he's actually a werewolf, goes bonkers, and decides that if he *looks* like a monster, he might as well be one. Again, it stems from internal things, but he could have just been a 'normal' person before he found out.
I think of it this way. Werewolves don't have inhibitions, or at the very least have significantly lessened ones. Thus, the wolf is a wolf, but it's not just a wolf, it's all the things you've crammed down and repressed, and it will be until you can reconcile that part of your nature. As such, the wolf is very much your personal demon, a heaping helping of unresolved emotions.
This can be good or bad, but it's something you'll have to be aware of until you can learn to deal with it. It's without a doubt you, but it's a part of you that you perhaps don't like to acknowledge.
This can be good or bad, but it's something you'll have to be aware of until you can learn to deal with it. It's without a doubt you, but it's a part of you that you perhaps don't like to acknowledge.
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Vuldari
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Lasthowl wrote:I think of it this way. Werewolves don't have inhibitions, or at the very least have significantly lessened ones. Thus, the wolf is a wolf, but it's not just a wolf, it's all the things you've crammed down and repressed, and it will be until you can reconcile that part of your nature. As such, the wolf is very much your personal demon, a heaping helping of unresolved emotions.
This can be good or bad, but it's something you'll have to be aware of until you can learn to deal with it. It's without a doubt you, but it's a part of you that you perhaps don't like to acknowledge.
This is pretty much how I see the reasoning behind the traditional "raging" werewolf. If the human acts like a beast, it is not because the wolf makes them that way, but because they allready had a beast locked inside (as many of us do), which the transformation merely set loose. If you can't deal with your own inner demons, you may find blood on your hands after your next shift. :shock:
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TakeWalker
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I nevertheless maintain that the change will always be traumatic. It wouldn't matter if you're expecting it or not, turning into something completely unlike what you have been for the last 10, 15, 20 years of your life is going to unhinge you. Some people will curl up in the fetal position, some will freak out and be able to be helped out of it by those more experienced. And then there'll be that guy who is one in a hundred, a thousand, or even a million, who just absolutely loses it and goes psychotic raving nutso. And boom, there's your evil werewolf.
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WolvenOne
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I do like the inner demons concept, as well as the idea that new werewolves would have a period of psychological instability.
Both of these would explain why werewolves sometimes attack and infect humans, even though the packs probably have rules against this, if the werewolf is too psychologically unstable to reason, bad things will happen.
As for the inner demons issue, everybody has some sort of inner demon, though they're not always the rampaging kind, for example, bullies often attack others to cover up the fact that they are cowards. So not everybodies inner demons would necceserilly be problematic.
Both of these would explain why werewolves sometimes attack and infect humans, even though the packs probably have rules against this, if the werewolf is too psychologically unstable to reason, bad things will happen.
As for the inner demons issue, everybody has some sort of inner demon, though they're not always the rampaging kind, for example, bullies often attack others to cover up the fact that they are cowards. So not everybodies inner demons would necceserilly be problematic.
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Baphnedia
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Playing the demons against one another might be something that a character with a good background in psychology (or even maybe the occult?) might do, to play with the minds of the characters, spinning webs and the like.
Also, I just had a thought. The amount of stress on the body and the mind have been more than outlined, but I just realized something - that I'm going to borrow from a dragony point of view. (I say this, to give credit where it's due - as it isn't originally my idea)
A long, long time ago, an Otherkin addressed the issue of Changing, and how deadly it can be if not properly prepared. The nature of how you changed was different, for his storyline, but a constant was that Changing put huge stress on your body. If you didn't keep hydrated enough, and enough electrolytes in your body, death was a possibility. (credit where it's due: Baxil at www.tomorrowlands.org - the specific document may still be on his site, but his layout has changed a lot since I last looked for this particular issue).
I see two possibilities with this (there are many more, I'm sure), that Changing (for the first, or first few times - until your body's adjusted) makes the subject famished and thirsty (in need of said electrolytes - water isn't enough), and also, product placement. Any sports drink would be at the top of my list, but it might help with other facets of getting the movie out there... just something to consider.
Wolf1: *starts changing*
Wolf2: *forcefully holds him by the shoulder* "I realize that this is your first Change, (however it is that you got to this point), and you need to eat. That twelve-year-old girl down the street carrying a physics book won't taste good, not only on account of looking human, but that Will Smith says that she's an alien. We're going to go to the woods and hunt, and when we're done with that, you're going to drink Powerade until you puke!"
Also, I just had a thought. The amount of stress on the body and the mind have been more than outlined, but I just realized something - that I'm going to borrow from a dragony point of view. (I say this, to give credit where it's due - as it isn't originally my idea)
A long, long time ago, an Otherkin addressed the issue of Changing, and how deadly it can be if not properly prepared. The nature of how you changed was different, for his storyline, but a constant was that Changing put huge stress on your body. If you didn't keep hydrated enough, and enough electrolytes in your body, death was a possibility. (credit where it's due: Baxil at www.tomorrowlands.org - the specific document may still be on his site, but his layout has changed a lot since I last looked for this particular issue).
I see two possibilities with this (there are many more, I'm sure), that Changing (for the first, or first few times - until your body's adjusted) makes the subject famished and thirsty (in need of said electrolytes - water isn't enough), and also, product placement. Any sports drink would be at the top of my list, but it might help with other facets of getting the movie out there... just something to consider.
Wolf1: *starts changing*
Wolf2: *forcefully holds him by the shoulder* "I realize that this is your first Change, (however it is that you got to this point), and you need to eat. That twelve-year-old girl down the street carrying a physics book won't taste good, not only on account of looking human, but that Will Smith says that she's an alien. We're going to go to the woods and hunt, and when we're done with that, you're going to drink Powerade until you puke!"
IMHO, It’s not the werewolf or the man, but the individual. I don’t believe that mankind in general is evil, but individuals can be. I’ve spent a lot of time in dog parks. A lot of time. Canines in general are cool, but there are bullies and sneaks, etc., in that species too.
In humans, specifically there is a saying. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And there are powerful things about being a ww. The trauma of the first changes would probably cause some abnormal behavior in the individual — a period of psychological instability, as WolvenOne says. They might do things they would never do again. On the other hand, there would definitely be those who would enjoy using the power to do all those reprehensible things they couldn’t do before. So you have your traumatized wws, your decent wws and your “that’s how we got a bad reputation’ wws.
And just something I learned a while back — human meat tastes nasty. Predator animals won’t eat it, even if it’s lying there dead or wounded, unless there’s just no other choice. It’s suspected that our nasty taste had as much to do, with our evolutionary survival, as our intelligence did. Anyway, even wws would be inclined to go after a nice tasty pig or rabbit, over a nasty eeeewwwww human.
And I like Baphnedia’s idea that the change leaves one depleted and thirsty. And good idea about the product placement.
In humans, specifically there is a saying. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And there are powerful things about being a ww. The trauma of the first changes would probably cause some abnormal behavior in the individual — a period of psychological instability, as WolvenOne says. They might do things they would never do again. On the other hand, there would definitely be those who would enjoy using the power to do all those reprehensible things they couldn’t do before. So you have your traumatized wws, your decent wws and your “that’s how we got a bad reputation’ wws.
And just something I learned a while back — human meat tastes nasty. Predator animals won’t eat it, even if it’s lying there dead or wounded, unless there’s just no other choice. It’s suspected that our nasty taste had as much to do, with our evolutionary survival, as our intelligence did. Anyway, even wws would be inclined to go after a nice tasty pig or rabbit, over a nasty eeeewwwww human.
And I like Baphnedia’s idea that the change leaves one depleted and thirsty. And good idea about the product placement.
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Scott Gardener
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A crash course in Vlk'rin's Crossover Theory
If one of us (by "us" I mean die-hard fans, as opposed to someone interested but not a die-hard, or someone just casually glancing at this site for that matter) suddenly got afflicted with lycanthropy, the sudden shock that it's real would throw one's sense of reality out the window. And that's someone who has geared up for it mentally by daydreams.
We take for granted that the fantastic is fantastic and that real is real. When something moves from one to the other, the astonishment is an enormous emotional ordeal. We live in a world that exhibits properties that I have described as "continuity."
Continuity is the property of a universe, realm, or timeline, in which every effect has a cause and events follow logically. Dreams lack continuity, as do some twilight zone episodes. Continuity is what makes our lives predictable.
Appearant Continuity is a more specific property of one's existance, however. Something that seems to defy existance may in fact fit in true continuity. Consider for example, my werewolf novel. (I'll spare you the details if you're not wanting to read 90,000 words right now just to follow a post on a BBS thread--it's not essential.) The lead character gets bitten by a werewolf and is infected with a contageous form of lycanthropy. His sense of appearant continuity was disrupted. However, real continuity was preserved, since werewolves really did exist in spite of his knowledge. But, a disruption of appearant continuity is just as much a disruption of a world-view, and one generally cannot tell an appearant discontinuity from a real discontinuity. The Matrix also shows a breach of appearant discontinuity, though a more drastic one; the world in its entirity was revealed to be a simulation generated by something in another world.
Appearant Probable Continuity is the stuff we take for granted. We experience breeches of appearant probable continuity fairly often--we get unexpected deaths, divorces, breakups, or disasters like the horrific tsunami that has recently devistated the Indo-Pacific. They're unexpected, but they don't break any laws of physics. What they break is our sense of daily routine. Good events can also defy appearant probable continuity--here in the U.S., we have the Publisher's Clearing House Prize Patrol, driving around in a minivan and turning the occasional magazine subscriber into a multimillionaire. It's been demonstrated that sudden good windfalls can also play havoc with one's emotions, however, as we all hear about the people with lottery winnings either losing it or wishing they hadn't won. (I'd like to test that for myself, actually. Got any huge loads of cash for me?)
Breaks in appearant probable continuity generate shock and disbelief, followed by a complex series of emotions. One can only speculate what a breech of appearant continuity regardless of probability would entail, but I imagine it would be similar, only greater.
People are frequently driven mad by less complete breakdowns of continuity and assumed existence. As an ER physician, I frequently see people overdosing on drugs, and typically it is because of changes in family, breakups with boyfriends and girlfriends, or other things that are personally unfortunate but not so implausible as to defy the fundamental model of reality itself. I also see fear as people's most common first reaction to the paranormal. When people describe encounters with ghosts or UFOs, they describe how quick they were to get the heck out of there. In my own encounters with unexplained phenomena (a few presumed astral projections and one "ghost"--an unexplained rattling in an allegedly haunted hospital room), my own first reaction was certainly intimidation; it took work to try to stay around the situation, and I'm actively interested in this kind of stuff.
So, I consider it quite plausible that shapeshifting would drive one to do just about anything without having to have any direct effect such as pressing hunger and an exclusively human diet. Simple psychological astonishment would be enough.
We take for granted that the fantastic is fantastic and that real is real. When something moves from one to the other, the astonishment is an enormous emotional ordeal. We live in a world that exhibits properties that I have described as "continuity."
Continuity is the property of a universe, realm, or timeline, in which every effect has a cause and events follow logically. Dreams lack continuity, as do some twilight zone episodes. Continuity is what makes our lives predictable.
Appearant Continuity is a more specific property of one's existance, however. Something that seems to defy existance may in fact fit in true continuity. Consider for example, my werewolf novel. (I'll spare you the details if you're not wanting to read 90,000 words right now just to follow a post on a BBS thread--it's not essential.) The lead character gets bitten by a werewolf and is infected with a contageous form of lycanthropy. His sense of appearant continuity was disrupted. However, real continuity was preserved, since werewolves really did exist in spite of his knowledge. But, a disruption of appearant continuity is just as much a disruption of a world-view, and one generally cannot tell an appearant discontinuity from a real discontinuity. The Matrix also shows a breach of appearant discontinuity, though a more drastic one; the world in its entirity was revealed to be a simulation generated by something in another world.
Appearant Probable Continuity is the stuff we take for granted. We experience breeches of appearant probable continuity fairly often--we get unexpected deaths, divorces, breakups, or disasters like the horrific tsunami that has recently devistated the Indo-Pacific. They're unexpected, but they don't break any laws of physics. What they break is our sense of daily routine. Good events can also defy appearant probable continuity--here in the U.S., we have the Publisher's Clearing House Prize Patrol, driving around in a minivan and turning the occasional magazine subscriber into a multimillionaire. It's been demonstrated that sudden good windfalls can also play havoc with one's emotions, however, as we all hear about the people with lottery winnings either losing it or wishing they hadn't won. (I'd like to test that for myself, actually. Got any huge loads of cash for me?)
Breaks in appearant probable continuity generate shock and disbelief, followed by a complex series of emotions. One can only speculate what a breech of appearant continuity regardless of probability would entail, but I imagine it would be similar, only greater.
People are frequently driven mad by less complete breakdowns of continuity and assumed existence. As an ER physician, I frequently see people overdosing on drugs, and typically it is because of changes in family, breakups with boyfriends and girlfriends, or other things that are personally unfortunate but not so implausible as to defy the fundamental model of reality itself. I also see fear as people's most common first reaction to the paranormal. When people describe encounters with ghosts or UFOs, they describe how quick they were to get the heck out of there. In my own encounters with unexplained phenomena (a few presumed astral projections and one "ghost"--an unexplained rattling in an allegedly haunted hospital room), my own first reaction was certainly intimidation; it took work to try to stay around the situation, and I'm actively interested in this kind of stuff.
So, I consider it quite plausible that shapeshifting would drive one to do just about anything without having to have any direct effect such as pressing hunger and an exclusively human diet. Simple psychological astonishment would be enough.
Taking a Gestalt approach, since it's the "in" thing...
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Vuldari
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..... :shock: .........Whoah.
Oddly enough, I was just thinking about almost the same thing...
Scott explained it far better than I would have, however. Good Job.
I'm as sure now as I ever was that, IF a werewolf went on a rampage, it would have nothing to do with an instinctive desire for meat, or anything of the sort.
....yeah...it doesn't take much to push someone over the edge. ...and turning into a Werewolf is no minor event.
Oddly enough, I was just thinking about almost the same thing...
Scott explained it far better than I would have, however. Good Job.
I'm as sure now as I ever was that, IF a werewolf went on a rampage, it would have nothing to do with an instinctive desire for meat, or anything of the sort.
....yeah...it doesn't take much to push someone over the edge. ...and turning into a Werewolf is no minor event.
Please Forgive the Occasional Outburst of my Inner Sage ... for he is Oblivious to Sarcasm, and not Easily Silenced.
=^.^'= ~
=^.^'= ~
I've had a fascination with the paranormal as well, although I am a large skeptic of the majority of it. I'd jump at the opportunity to do some investigations hehe...Scott Gardener wrote:I also see fear as people's most common first reaction to the paranormal. When people describe encounters with ghosts or UFOs, they describe how quick they were to get the heck out of there. In my own encounters with unexplained phenomena (a few presumed astral projections and one "ghost"--an unexplained rattling in an allegedly haunted hospital room), my own first reaction was certainly intimidation; it took work to try to stay around the situation, and I'm actively interested in this kind of stuff.
That's some pretty deep stuff yet it makes sense to me..
An event of that magnitude (TFing into a werewolf) would indeed alter that individuals perception of reality pretty drastically. Indeed, it would be difficult, if not impossible, to be able to "know" what [you] would/wouldn't do in that situation until it actually happened to you.-
Scott Gardener
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Knowledge is power. Can absolute knowledge corrupt?
There's also the added fear of not knowing what happens next. Once you start to shapeshift, all the familiar rules go out the window. At the same time, you've got a mixed bag of predictions, all of varying quality, about where you're going. Are you affected by full moons or silver bullets? You don't know. After your first excruciating transformation, are you even going to change back, and if so, are you going to have to go through that much pain again?
Not knowing is usually the very source of fear. (Though knowing can also produce a lot of fear, too, I grant.) And, if I were sprouting fur, yellow eyes, and pointed teeth, there's a lot more I think I'd need to know!
Not knowing is usually the very source of fear. (Though knowing can also produce a lot of fear, too, I grant.) And, if I were sprouting fur, yellow eyes, and pointed teeth, there's a lot more I think I'd need to know!
Taking a Gestalt approach, since it's the "in" thing...
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ANTIcarrot.
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What are your assumptions about the physical and mental change? If a person's body changes but their mind does not, then that could lead to a panic attack. However if there is no mental change at all the werewolf isn't going to be able to walk properly, much less go on a rampage.
Without some mental change the WW will probably not be able to move their body properly, and almost definately will not be able to handle the sudden increase in sensory input.
The mental reaction will depend on the degree of mental transformation. If the person's self image changes along with their body, they might not notice an difference! If they down-gear to a wolf's mind they will probably become tremendously curious about themselves and their enviroment; in the same way a wolf might if they suddenly woke up in a strange location or found out that their tail had been painted blue.
ANTIcarrot.
Without some mental change the WW will probably not be able to move their body properly, and almost definately will not be able to handle the sudden increase in sensory input.
The mental reaction will depend on the degree of mental transformation. If the person's self image changes along with their body, they might not notice an difference! If they down-gear to a wolf's mind they will probably become tremendously curious about themselves and their enviroment; in the same way a wolf might if they suddenly woke up in a strange location or found out that their tail had been painted blue.
ANTIcarrot.
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Figarou
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So you are saying the mind becomes more wolf like? That it takes a mind of a wolf to move the tail. Well, if the human traits disappear, you'll have a werewolf that has no idea of whats going on.ANTIcarrot. wrote:What are your assumptions about the physical and mental change? If a person's body changes but their mind does not, then that could lead to a panic attack. However if there is no mental change at all the werewolf isn't going to be able to walk properly, much less go on a rampage.
Without some mental change the WW will probably not be able to move their body properly, and almost definately will not be able to handle the sudden increase in sensory input.
The mental reaction will depend on the degree of mental transformation. If the person's self image changes along with their body, they might not notice an difference! If they down-gear to a wolf's mind they will probably become tremendously curious about themselves and their enviroment; in the same way a wolf might if they suddenly woke up in a strange location or found out that their tail had been painted blue.
ANTIcarrot.
Like I mentioned here....
http://calypso-blue.com/werewolf/viewto ... =2754#2754
wolves don't think before they act. Example: looking both ways before crossing the street.
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ANTIcarrot.
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In most cases, the werewolf is ableto get up and walk around fairly quickly after they change. This is not reasonable in many cases, because the structure of the legs has changed significantly and/or they have two extra ones. They'd efectively have to learn from scratch (like stroke victims do) over a perod of months, or have the knowledge implanted in their mind via the change.
I'm not saying it takes the mind of a wolf to move a tail. A cat doesn't have the mind of a wolf and it manages okay. ;) What I am saying is that it would take a modifacation to the hpothalamous and motor cortext if you wanted to be able to use your new body well and/or use it quickly.
Since some kind of mental shift is required to accomadate te new body, why not other kinds as well?
ANTIcarrot.
I'm not saying it takes the mind of a wolf to move a tail. A cat doesn't have the mind of a wolf and it manages okay. ;) What I am saying is that it would take a modifacation to the hpothalamous and motor cortext if you wanted to be able to use your new body well and/or use it quickly.
Since some kind of mental shift is required to accomadate te new body, why not other kinds as well?
ANTIcarrot.
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Figarou
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ANTIcarrot. wrote:What I am saying is that it would take a modifacation to the hpothalamous and motor cortext if you wanted to be able to use your new body well and/or use it quickly.
ANTIcarrot.
When you become a werewolf for the very 1st time, or should I say "shift," it will take some time getting use to the new added features.
But will that werewolf be helpless? Maybe. Maybe not.
A new born wildebeest needs to get up quickly and run with the herd in order to survive. I see the same for the newly transformed werewolf.
Man, I love it when I put my mind to work.
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Vuldari
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When a Human recieves a transplanted organ or a skin graft, they quickly gain the ability to feel it and/or use it without any changes to the brain. (it automatically changes the neural network to include it.)
If the body can adjust to "foreign" components this way ,(admittely, with weeks or months of adjustment time in some cases), I would think that anything that actually GREW from their own body would automaticly have the right connections in place.
Since they would only be "extensions" or "modifications" of existing muscles and parts, I don't think it would take that much time to adjust to using them.
Walking and moving would be aquard the first time, while moving the tail would be likely spasmatic while they learn to recognise those new muscles and what they do.
So, yeah...a "first time" shifter would likely be tripping over it's own feet for the first few minutes.
IMHO
If the body can adjust to "foreign" components this way ,(admittely, with weeks or months of adjustment time in some cases), I would think that anything that actually GREW from their own body would automaticly have the right connections in place.
Since they would only be "extensions" or "modifications" of existing muscles and parts, I don't think it would take that much time to adjust to using them.
Walking and moving would be aquard the first time, while moving the tail would be likely spasmatic while they learn to recognise those new muscles and what they do.
So, yeah...a "first time" shifter would likely be tripping over it's own feet for the first few minutes.
IMHO
Please Forgive the Occasional Outburst of my Inner Sage ... for he is Oblivious to Sarcasm, and not Easily Silenced.
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=^.^'= ~
I think that is a good idea. Not completely though. If a man has love in him, he can't be completely innocent. If he witnesses the murder of his family/friends/love one(s), he's obviously going to go on a monsterous rampage in an attempt to murder the one who killed/hurt them. Unless it was them, in that case...... they'd be confused......
