missing matter

[Anubis]

i got a tuffy you guys. you know that werewolves get bigger taller and grow fur. but were does all that extera matter come from and were does it go? this is really confusing me. i have two theories

1# is that werewolves do some kind of sythisis turning one kind of matter into another (lead into gold kind of thing) turning air into proteins
making the cells of the body to do a rapid cell mitosis and rapid growth.
and when the werewolf turns into ether a full wolf or human it does it in reverse

2# this one makes the werewolf seem fat but actualy they are storing nessentual proteins and other stuff that a werewolf needs to "sift"
so don't pick on the fatties or you'll might be f***ing with a werewolf.

what do you think?

[Rwolf]

I figure is they store or compress large amounts of energy within there body, except not in a form of fat as you stated. But more in the blood and tissue.

[Scott Gardener]

You might have seen some of my other posts, ranting about physics--specifically the first law of thermodynamics. I picture werewolves not gaining or losing mass between forms at all, though they can still look a little taller without having to look skinny or ugly.

If a werewolf does literally gain mass at the moment of transformation, even a tiny bit, then we're dealing with something more sophisticated than mere virus-like particles, as nothing we know in basic biology can carry out subatomic fusion or fission reactions, or otherwise fiddle with E=mc^2 to make things bigger. We'd instead be delving into the realms of transdimensional beings, ectoplasm, and other things currently squarely in the realm of postulation and metaphysics, where normal, expected things like the painful first shift or the problem of getting teeth to change shape could easily be non-issues.

[WolvenOne]

As I've said many times in the past, physics simply are going to have to be fudged. Doesn't mean you can make a five foot tall person turn into a werewolf, just means that you're gonna have to not worry as much and add the bare minamim amount of mass to create the body needed. This isn't a new practice either, American Werewolf in London did the same thing, but between the minimal amount of gained mass and the choppiness of the transformation scene the audience wasn't given much of an opperatunity to notice.

Now, I am all for making this realistic in the areas that can be realistic. However, even if we use a realistic sounding deus-ex-machina, AKA, a virus, this is still going to squarly be within the realm of fantasy no matter how you cut it. So I wouldn't worry about it too much. Rather then obsess with the physics, I would simply concentrate on the plot, as that's ultimately what makes or breaks any tale in any form.

If you absolutely cannot, well, this is biologically impossible but I'm gonna go with the compressed matter direction. This is almost as unlikely as breaking the first law of physics though, least as far as I understand it.

[Terastas]

The same place your stomach goes when you suck your gut in. It's not reducing in size -- it's just getting condensed together.

At least, that's the only logical explanation I could think of to explain a werewolf's sudden growth spur -- that they wouldn't be gaining mass, but rather having an increase in the body's production of the chemicals which in turn enhance the werewolf's muscles.

As for bones, well... We're already talking about a transformation that involves distortion of the skull and elongation of the tailbone, so I think it'd be safe to assume that a shapeshift involves plenty of distortion. It could be that a part of that, instead of additional bone growing, they become hallow like that of a bird as they elongate (which might also explain how werewolves in other movies can manage that "dancing on the ceiling" crap).

So the simplest answer would be that a werewolf doesn't gain mass -- his mass just becomes less condensed. He may look two feet taller and be a lot stronger, but his weight wouldn't reflect this.

[WolvenOne]

Um.... his bones would hollow out? Wouldn't that..... cause problems with the skull and feet?

[Terastas]

Um.... his bones would hollow out? Wouldn't that..... cause problems with the skull and feet?

Not really. A bird's bones aren't completely hallow -- more like they just have random hallow pockets, sort of like a sponge for lack of a better comparison, which makes them lighter but not all that less durable. If a werewolf's bones hallowed out completely, that would be a problem, but at the very least they should be able to handle the force and pressure applied by their own body weight.

[WolvenOne]

Okay... skull and tail would.... probably be fine.... especially if WW bones start out denser then normal. I'm still a little.... nerveus about the feet though, especially the elongated ankle. That part of the body would take a lot of force I would think so it'd seem to me that the likelyhook of a break occuring there would be.... drastically higher.

[hydrocarbon]

I think breaking/splitting of the bone tissue would probably occur, especially in the most-supporting parts of the skeleton. Birds have hollow bones (needed for flight capabilities), but they're pretty light (yep, even eagles and storks etc.) compared to large mammals (and if they existed, this would include werewolves). Unless, of course, they were somehow incredibly strong. From the general idea of a werewolf here, we have a creature with a fair amount of muscle mass and size.

Either way the additional mass appearing cannot be properly justified, at least not in this way. It'd be easier to explain if the metamorphosis was a more drawn-out process rather than a relatively quick one, but that'd be boring Besides, it's much more fun to keep the supernatural aspect there, hehe.

[Vicious]

Would a one time permenant change negate those various inconsitincies?

Maybe it would have to be more gradual, but is it scientficaly feasible?

[hydrocarbon]

Vicious: it happens with frogs (tadpoles gradually grow legs, lose tail, lose gills etc. over a period of time). And I think that's how they did it in the Ginger Snaps films. I guess it could, but I'm no authority on any of this

[WolvenOne]

Well I still maintain that this is fantasy and we need not worry about such inconsistencies. I know the scientifically minded tend to obsess over such details however....

...even if we come up with a valid workaround, do you really think a werewolf would have enough medical knowledge about thier own body to bring such information up in a casual conversation? This isn't going to star a bunch of super-genious types that discuss such things casually, so even if we come up with a work-around, it probably wouldn't fit anywhere in a film.

A book though... sure, it'd fit just fine, with hundreds of pages and such detail it'd be easy to work in the main character thinking about "how this body gets around the laws of physics. In a movie though, it probably wouldn't fit.

[hydrocarbon]

Agreed; when I was dinking around with theories a while ago with a story I eventually just gave up because I was confusing myself, and kept it as a supernatural/unexplainable thing

[Shadow Wulf]

You might have seen some of my other posts, ranting about physics--specifically the first law of thermodynamics. I picture werewolves not gaining or losing mass between forms at all, though they can still look a little taller without having to look skinny or ugly.

If a werewolf does literally gain mass at the moment of transformation, even a tiny bit, then we're dealing with something more sophisticated than mere virus-like particles, as nothing we know in basic biology can carry out subatomic fusion or fission reactions, or otherwise fiddle with E=mc^2 to make things bigger. We'd instead be delving into the realms of transdimensional beings, ectoplasm, and other things currently squarely in the realm of postulation and metaphysics, where normal, expected things like the painful first shift or the problem of getting teeth to change shape could easily be non-issues.

um put it in simple english please J/K you dont have to

[Shadow Wulf]

just wondering how many of you people are scientist and physicians and etc*

[Arania]

I've thought about this too - and unfortunately this is one of the biggest stumbling blocks I've thought about as far as the plausibility.

I don't buy the "less dense" idea - I can't picture a 120lb female gestalt form werewolf no matter how you cut it - the fur alone would be pretty heavy. (Mass, as long as we're talking about this planet, can directly translate to weight.)

Maybe a HUGE appetite prior to the shift? But even then, gorging on dozens of pounds of food is a stretch... and then after the change... it would have to be... well... expunged - and after translated to body organs, bone, fur? As much as I hate to admit it, the "shedding" idea works better mass-wise to rid them of some of the mass when shifting back.

Regardless, I say this is one area where it's best to "fudge"

[WolvenOne]

just wondering how many of you people are scientist and physicians and etc*

Well, I'm no scientist or doctor I'm afraid, I'm just a smart aleck that dabbles in a lot of different subjects. (I can't help it I'm naturally curious) I do know that there are at least a few "highly educated" types around here though.

[Shadow Wulf]

well we can try to figure out what makes a werewolf ticks for the rest of civilication, but as long as werewolfs dont exist the world may never know........or mabey there out there and we just dont know it.

::F.B.I. breaks in my house::

F.B.I.: you know too much take him down!
Shadow Wulf: Noo wait aahhhhhh!!

BAM! BAM! BAM!...........

[Terastas]

...even if we come up with a valid workaround, do you really think a werewolf would have enough medical knowledge about thier own body to bring such information up in a casual conversation? This isn't going to star a bunch of super-genious types that discuss such things casually, so even if we come up with a work-around, it probably wouldn't fit anywhere in a film.

Good point. Even in the unlikely event that a werewolf did make it all the way through medical school with his "at-home issues," there's no way he could conduct a thourough study in the nature of lycanthropy by himself, and even if he could, nobody would fund it, and even if someone was dumb enough to, his findings would only benefit a few dozen people that would never admit to demonstrating interest in his research in the first place, and even then that's assuming somebody from the FBI and up doesn't pay him a visit that will convince him that lycanthropy does not exist.

That's not to say we can't debate this; it just won't have any relevance in Freeborn.

[Shadow Wulf]

:: F.B.I. breaks in to Terastas house.....:

BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM!

sorry about that terastas im just bored tonight.
please dont be mad...

[WolvenOne]

Hmm.... a 9mm bullet in the head can be pretty convincing. Though somehow I doubt the FBI would be too concerned with somebody investigating theories that would most likely be dismissed as crackpot by the general public. ;)

[Shadow Wulf]

Hmm.... a 9mm bullet in the head can be pretty convincing. Though somehow I doubt the FBI would be too concerned with somebody investigating theories that would most likely be dismissed as crackpot by the general public. ;)

i know right, the same things with aliens and bigfoot. and area 51 experiments

[Kzinistzerg]

Yeah th general publich is very... hehe, to steal one of my math teacher's sayings, "y'all hardheaded!" and porbabl;y just dismiss the guy as some wacko who's probly into al sortfs of other "crap" and realy needs to be capture and stuffed in an aslym.

[Scott Gardener]

Wolves are actually smaller than humans on average. The enormous, eight-foot "Crinos form" behemoths of a lot of contemporary stories contradicts basic logic. (But, to their credit, people still described the Beast of Bray Road as being pretty huge. Still, people are very prone to exaggerating when scared.)

There's no reason a werewolf can't stay at 120 lbs. in all three forms. (Note that a 120 lb. person is either a teenager or young adult, or likely either short or underweight, or both.)

A Gestalt-form werewolf would appear slightly taller than the human form of the same person just by virtue of posture--the digitigrade stance that most of us voted for elsewhere in the forum almost ensures that.

The fur also would make the Gestalt form look larger. The cat sitting next to me now, licking my leg (a Himilayan named Mara, by the way, who is now trying to snuggle the screen) looks about half her size when she's buzzed down. She's actually a very small cat, but she looks larger than her daughter Zara most of the time. Of course, she's got long, Himilayan hair, and some of us advocate shorter werewolf fur. Wolf-fur-length fur, however, if done right over just the back half of the body, would make one look larger.

You don't need to confabulate huge size to make werewolves intimidating. Seeing people having realistic reactions to them, as opposed to movie-like cliche reactions, will be more than effective enough. Turning them into oversized behemoths actually would defeat my sense of plausibility.

Between stance and fur, a six foot person could conceivably go up to maybe six feet, 8 inches, without looking any skinnier--maybe looking heavier, if the mass goes into the right places. (The human belly can hold a lot of fat, and even those of us who are otherwise skinny often would like to see less of our abdomens. Not to mention the breast-reduction issue.)

also remember that we're over 80% water, between intracellular and extracellular fluid, so a fairly quick shifting of mass without cell divisions is plausible.

A five foot person could come close to six feet. I'm six feet tall myself, and frankly, I'd be intimidated by a werewolf even if it were a few inches shorter than me. Remember that a lot of people are scared of spiders, which are on the order of 1/40,000-th their size. Of course, spiders, unlike werewolves, can walk on walls.

[Scott Gardener]

Oh, I also meant to offer the Cozalien-English translation of my post, for Shadow Wulf's benefit:

You might have seen some of my other posts, ranting about physics--specifically the first law of thermodynamics. I picture werewolves not gaining or losing mass between forms at all, though they can still look a little taller without having to look skinny or ugly.

The first law of thermodyamics is that energy is neither created nor destroyed, only transformed. It's often applied to matter as well. However matter technically can be created or destroyed, but only in high-energy subatomic reactions that transform matter to or from other forms of energy, without changing the total amount of energy in the universe.

If a werewolf does literally gain mass at the moment of transformation, even a tiny bit, then we're dealing with something more sophisticated than mere virus-like particles, as nothing we know in basic biology can carry out subatomic fusion or fission reactions, or otherwise fiddle with E=mc^2 to make things bigger. We'd instead be delving into the realms of transdimensional beings, ectoplasm, and other things currently squarely in the realm of postulation and metaphysics, where normal, expected things like the painful first shift or the problem of getting teeth to change shape could easily be non-issues.

I'm basically saying that all our debates about scientific plausibility of viruses and biology are meaningless if we do something with it even more unbelievable, that defies the most basic laws of the universe. I then went on to suggest ways that werewolves that grow larger with shifting could work--ways that didn't involve biological viruses so much as something a bit more exotic, such as extra dimensions or the astral realm, where the additional matter could be stored outside normal space.