After the Caucus: reaction and discussion in a polite manner

The place for anything at all...

Are you still going to vote like you indicated on the previous thread?

No. I switched (say why, pls.)
3
33%
I'm sticking with my first choice (say why, pls.)
6
67%
2 - Doesn’t really care either way
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No votes
3 - They’re pretty cool I guess, but they aren’t an obsession
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No votes
 
Total votes: 9

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Post by RedEye »

As a Vetran myself, I used the V.A. exactly ONCE.

Thereafter, I preferred to use the private sector. Since at the time I was investing so I could retire early (and I did!) every cent not put into retirement or other wealth generating funds was begrudged deeply. Yet I had no problem paying up front for my private medical care, having sampled the V.A. version of healthcare. :P
Admittedly, the V.A. is a joke right now. They are NOT Service Hospitals for Service-people in service to the country....those are actually rather good. THe V.A. is what the Government promised each soldier and Sailor and Airman and Marine: after your service, we'll take care of you. The phrase "Take care of" has many meanings, however. :roll:
The V.A. is NOT Socialized Medicine. It is a "used car dealer's warrantee"- do the least in the cheapest manner to meet the wording of the promise.
Socialized Medicine is n ot my particular cup of tea- but it isn't the V.A; either. :|
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Post by Zombie »

RedEye wrote:As a Vetran myself, I used the V.A. exactly ONCE.

Thereafter, I preferred to use the private sector. Since at the time I was investing so I could retire early (and I did!) every cent not put into retirement or other wealth generating funds was begrudged deeply. Yet I had no problem paying up front for my private medical care, having sampled the V.A. version of healthcare. :P
Admittedly, the V.A. is a joke right now. They are NOT Service Hospitals for Service-people in service to the country....those are actually rather good. THe V.A. is what the Government promised each soldier and Sailor and Airman and Marine: after your service, we'll take care of you. The phrase "Take care of" has many meanings, however. :roll:
The V.A. is NOT Socialized Medicine. It is a "used car dealer's warrantee"- do the least in the cheapest manner to meet the wording of the promise.
Socialized Medicine is n ot my particular cup of tea- but it isn't the V.A; either. :|

But, my point being, after seeing what the VA is today, that what socialized health care COULD become. A Government-sponsored waiting list. If, god forbid, I ever have a life-threataning injury, Im headed for the nearest hospital, NOT the VA.

Congrats on your early reitrement! :drillsgt: :beerwolf: Im fixin` to do the same thing.
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Post by Terastas »

vrikasatma wrote:A nation is first, composed of its people. In my view, the government's first duty is to its people. If I were in charge, first priorities would be: Health, Armed Forces, Education. Give the people healthy bodies, protect those bodies, equip the minds and spirits with knowledge and the People can take it from there.
This was my take on it: The only socialism the government needs is in regards to that which is necessary to live (food, shelter, education, and medical). I'm proud to call myself a photographer and a comedian because, either way, I'm providing a product to people that want it -- if somebody doesn't want it or can't afford it, their lives will not be compromised as a result by it. What most of, if not all the pharmaceuticals in America are doing is blackmail: Making doctors and patients alike pay inflated amounts for products that cost them a smidgen of that to produce but that we'll be crippled and/or dead without. And most of, if not all insurance companies are frauds: We pay them thousands of dollars and more often than not their job is to inform us that our insurance plan does not cover our current ailments.

So yeah, if thinking the government should care for its people instead of the businessmen putting the screws to them, then fine, call me a commie if you want. I'd rather be a commie than someone that has to rob a bank to pay for his mom's dialysis. :P
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Post by vrikasatma »

I wouldn't mind government-subsidized housing — say, matching grants towards your mortgage payments — but I wouldn't like to see the government pay for our houses completely.

Remember the FEMA trailers for those displaced by the fall of New Orleans? They were small, outgassed hideous levels of formaldehyde and dioxin, and all looked the same. Imagine whole cities composed of those and cement-block tenements! :o :(

Thanks, I'd rather the building industry flourish via market competition. That means we have more efficient, healthier, nicer-looking cities and neighbourhoods. The point I was trying to make was "Give us healthy bodies and knowledge and we can do the rest ourselves."
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Post by RedEye »

vrikasatma wrote: Remember the FEMA trailers for those displaced by the fall of New Orleans? They were small, outgassed hideous levels of formaldehyde and dioxin, and all looked the same. Imagine whole cities composed of those and cement-block tenements! :o :(
I've seen them. Russia was notorious for repeat structures for "the workers" that looked like rows of blocks with windows in them. Everything was standardized: each flat was the exact repeat of its neighbor and the mirror of the one across the hall.
You really could not tell where you were, in which building, or what floor.

Sadly, that's what you get with Government Housing. Cookie-cutter constrution and standardization.
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Post by vrikasatma »

And also the biggest reason I don't support government footing the housing bill. The cancer rate wouldn't be one in three women/one in two men, it'd be 100%!
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Post by Terastas »

The thing is that a FEMA trailer is something you're only supposed to live in temporarily.

I think it's the government's job to ensure that its people live. Exactly how comfortably those people live should be left to the private sector. It shouldn't be mandatory and/or the norm, just available to those that need it. You might not want to live in an 84 square ft. living space, but it beats being homeless. Think of how many people are out on the street right now that would love to have a place to stay warm, get cleaned up and list on a job application as their place of residence; it's for the people that can and will live that way that it should be available for.

Just because you wouldn't settle for government standard doesn't mean it shouldn't be available, because there are plenty of people out there (myself included) that would, at least until they are back on their feet again.
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Post by Dreamer »

XIV
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Post by Renorei »

Personally, I'm not sure I want socialized healthcare.

I don't want MY tax money to foot the bill when some dumbass makes a stupid mistake. If you drive down a highway at 90 miles an hour, crash into a tree, and nearly kill yourself, YOU pay for your bills. If you smoke cigarettes for 40 years despite all the warnings about how bad it is for you, YOU pay your bills. If you are grossly obese, for no reason other than you won't get off your fat a**, stop eating, and exercise, then YOU pay the bills when you have a heart attack or need to have gastric bypass to save your life.

Genuine accidents that could not have been avoided and were not caused by anyone's stupidity? Sure, I'll pay for that. Diseases that people randomly caught by being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Sure, I'll pay to help them out. The various different problems associated with aging and that will affect almost all of us one day? Yeah I'll be happy to pay for that too.

In short--I want socialized healthcare that is selective--I don't want my taxes (or anyone else's who feels similarly to me) being used to pay the medical bills of fools.
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Post by Terastas »

The only problem with "selective" health care is the one I already alluded to with our current privatized health care: The insurance companies spend more ways trying to argue that you're not covered. Just because someone has lung cancer doesn't mean they smoked, so you can't really refuse to treat someone just based on their afflictions. An easier way of fixing that might be to make healthier lifestyles tax deductible, IE: the fewer risks you put yourself at, the more you get back on your tax return. You can't just automatically cut someone out; that just invites other officials to start cutting others out elsewhere.
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Post by Renorei »

Good points, definitely.

The whole thing still bothers me though. As a general rule, I like to be left alone and not forced to pay for anything for anyone else. If our new leadership DOES institute a national healthcare plan that is covered in our taxes, I hope to God there's a way to opt out (that is, you don't pay the portion of taxes that pays for healthcare, but you don't get the free government healthcare either). I suppose making it optional may defeat the purpose of it anyway, but I just think the government should not force us to do anything and should stay out of our lives as much as possible.
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Post by vrikasatma »

It also smacks of a very cynical, "I got mine, screw you" attitude.

Anyway, we're kind of getting away from the Caucus/Primary discussion and bordering on rudeness, so how's about swinging it back the other way?...

We had the campaign's first big fight yesterday at the Nevada Caucus. Hillary's camp tried to sue to close down caucus sites on the Las Vegas strip because they knew a lot of Obama's supporters were there. A judge saw right through that and threw it out of court. The results: Hillary won the popular vote, but Barack took a slightly higher margin of delegates, 13 to Hillary's 12. CNN of course declared her the (erroneous) winner of the caucus, but in point of fact, it's not about the popularity. It's about the delegates. And Obama came away with more.

Super Tuesday is coming up in a little over two weeks. The Republican race is starting to tilt towards McCain, with a second victory in today's South Carolina Republican Primary.

The Dem race is still a tossup, but I'm getting wind of nasty campaign tactics coming from Hillary's camp. The caucus site lawsuit was just one. The Obama camp is trying to decide whether to lay off the "above it all/accentuate the positive" game we've been playing and take out the claws, or don the Kevlar and push ahead with even more strength, staying above it all.

In a surprise move, though, the Richardson camp is starting a grassroots movement to draft him as VP. We feel, and the Obama camp agree cautiously, that an Obama/Richardson ticket for the Dems would be unstoppable and a fine administration to live under.
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Post by RedEye »

Hmmm: Why is it that certain Ultra-Liberals see the Courts as the way to win elections?
I still remember Al Gore and the "hanging Chad" that had the country politically paralyzed while Bill Clinton's chosen successor tried everything he could to swing the Electoral College his way; the voters be damned.

At least that got us some voting reforms and improvements in a systsem that had been unchanged since the sixties.

Now Hillary is at it. Gotta wonder, just who we would elect if she were on the ballot?

Probably Mc Cain. :P
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Post by vrikasatma »

I'm worried about McCain. I admire how he can work "across the aisle" on legislation, but if he gets in the Oval Office we'll be at war with Iran and Iraq forever. That would be catastrophic.

Bottom line, we <i><b>need</i></b> to get out of Iraq and stay the <i>hell</i> out of Iran.
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Post by MattSullivan »

Don't vote Republican then. Find the lesser of two evils. ( unfortunatly that's what it's now come to ) I just dont want to spend one more day in Iraq. Under a republican administration, we'll be there for another 20 years.
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Post by Midnight »

Completely off topic I know... but I see the mention of Cheney in that cartoon. Is "Bloom County" still going? I thought it had finished some time in the early `nineties.
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Post by MattSullivan »

Nope. This is "Opus" Look for a beautiful hardcover book of the last few years "Opus" work in your local bookstore. I am happy to say i have ALL the old bloom County books.
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Post by Lukas »

MattSullivan wrote:Nope. This is "Opus" Look for a beautiful hardcover book of the last few years "Opus" work in your local bookstore. I am happy to say i have ALL the old bloom County books.
you could just read the Sunday cartoons
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Post by MattSullivan »

You COULD but the archive doesnt go back that far :P
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Post by RedEye »

Edge warning! We're starting to drift right over the edge...
Altho' Opus was funny.

Trouble is that nobody knows just what Mc Cain is actually FOR.
Gotta admit that's an excellent bit of spin, there.

Still- with both parties controlled by their extreme elements, what did we expect? What makes things worse is that some states allow dingbat parties (miniscule parties that don't have either a chance or a clue).
What these parties do is siphon off the desperate-for-something-else voters and solidify the party Iconoclast position.
I'm talking about the Green, Socialist, Libertarian, Independant, and all the other dingbat parties that show up every presidential election. These parties take the people who really want change, and give them someone to vote for that doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning nationally.
Thus, they attract the votes that might force the majors to re-think their policies, and diffuse them into uselessness. That means for the Majors, it's business as usual, and all the unhappies that might make for change are nicely neutralized. It also keeps a real third party from forming, and actually making a difference in things.
All you have to do to keep the status quo is give the people who are upset with you, their own party and candidates. By the time the shiny has rubbed off, the election is over. By the time the next election is ready to happen, people will forget.
That's probably the only thing that the Democrats and the Republicans will ever agree on...to our detriment.
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Post by Terastas »

vrikasatma wrote:The Obama camp is trying to decide whether to lay off the "above it all/accentuate the positive" game we've been playing and take out the claws, or don the Kevlar and push ahead with even more strength, staying above it all.
As was evident in Nevada, all Hillary did by trying to sabotage the Obama campaign like that was shoot herself in the foot. If Obama wants to present himself as the voice of change, he can start by not giving into childish mudslinging as has been the norm in the past.

Actually, hearing about what happened in Nevada may have been the decider for me. If Hillary wants to play dirty, I doubt she'll bring about the kind of change I'm looking for.
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Post by vrikasatma »

RedEye wrote:Still- with both parties controlled by their extreme elements, what did we expect? What makes things worse is that some states allow dingbat parties (miniscule parties that don't have either a chance or a clue).
What these parties do is siphon off the desperate-for-something-else voters and solidify the party Iconoclast position.
I'm talking about the Green, Socialist, Libertarian, Independant, and all the other dingbat parties that show up every presidential election. These parties take the people who really want change, and give them someone to vote for that doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning nationally.
This is why I ditched the Libertarians. They kept doing this "Make a statement! Make a statement!" bullshoi. Then one day, I wrote the party bigwigs and said, "You want to make a statement? How about a flying-the-colours Libertarian Senator on The Hill? Or Governor? That'd be one HELL of a statement. Get some yarblockos and go for the Prize, already!"...
And of course, I never heard another word back. And I never saw an in-so-many-words Libertarian Governor, Representative or Senator. We were shut out of the White House by the Electoral College, but there was absolutely nothing keeping us out of the Capitol Building or the state capitols.
No, they gave us Congresscritters and Governors who ran as "Independent," or some of the more conservative ones like Ron Paul jumped ship and ran as Republicans. Probably because they were tired of "making a statement" and wanted The Prize, too.
Now I hear the Libertarian Party is in trouble, and sinking fast because people are abandoning it. That's kind of a shame because they had some great ideas, like bringing the troops home and keeping them there. ALL the troops, close down the foreign bases and take care of the homefront.
I voted Green back in 2000 because I couldn't stomach either Bush, or Gore's running mate Lieberman, and I'm not sorry. Ralph Nader was the Consumer Advocate for California when I was growing up and he did some wonderful things for the people. I was voting my conscience and I sincerely believed he'd be a good President.
I spent a year messing around with other little fringe parties, like Cascadian Independence (really fringe — we want Oregon, Washington and Northern California from Redding up to secede from the Union, British Columbia secede from Canada, and form the nation of Cascadia). Yeah, not a chance in hell, but I liked what they were saying and wanted to let them know that. Google on 'em, they have some good ideas. Plus, (pipe dream time) if Cascadia ever did happen, we'd be the sixth richest economy in the world. Yeah, show desperately poor people a chance at a better life, you bet they'll jump. Maybe someday it'll happen.
Anyway...I've registered Democrat because I'm tired of being shut out of the Presidential campaign, and there ain't enough currency notes on this whole bloody planet that could make me hook up with the GOP.
I'm registered and voting Democrat in this race but I have to admit, my "otherwise" politics are still wavering between Libertarian and Green. I believe strongly — powerfully — in the Constitution and would like a moderately-Night Watchman government, so that's where the Libertarian comes in. (And that's another reason I like Obama — he's a Constitutional lawyer)
I also believe strongly in not just protecting, but nurturing the environment and promotion of human rights, and I don't think those are antithetical with trade and the economy. That's where the Green comes in.
I guess I'm best described as a Libertarian Moderate with Liberal leanings.
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Post by Lukas »

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Post by vrikasatma »

We had a watch party on Super Tuesday/Mardi Gras. Very successful, we drew about 35 people and pulled in $200 for both the national and the city campaigns.

I'm calling it an early night because I have to get up at Oh-Dark-Hundred tomorrow. Obama's appearing at a rally up in Seattle at noon and we're carpooling up. It's a five-hour drive and we want to get there early and make sure we get in. It would suck to drive 250 miles and get left standing in the rain, watching a big screen. :(

But, I'm savagely excited!! :cafinated: I've heard Barack talk on television, I want to hear that in the same room!
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Post by Spiritbw »

A Canadian and an Albertan I have provincial elections to worry about. Still keeping an eye on this though.

This seems to be the first election in a long time that so many Americans seem excited about. there is the chance for a possible historic first with a couple candidates and no matter what it seem that America's politics is changing form what has been had in the last eight years. How much of a change remains to be seen though.
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