Problems with Freeborn?

MattSullivan · Post by **MattSullivan** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:31 pm

I know effects are expensive, but with modern computers just about anyone can make comparible effects on their home computer these days.

What's more important to me, is story and character. All thebest movies have MEMORABLE CHARACTERS. Character you can recite the lines straight out of the movie.

Morkulv · Post by **Morkulv** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:49 pm

MattSullivan wrote:Personally, I hope he doesn't include a duckie.

Finally someone who agrees.

MattSullivan · Post by **MattSullivan** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:58 am

It's a matter of "will a duckie make the movie better." or..."Will the pack symbold be distracting?"

Now, if this is stuff that's say...in the background, it's not so bad.

Morkulv · Post by **Morkulv** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:57 am

I always had the opinion that a thing like a duckie is way too lame for any kind of running gag, let alone stand for a cameo in a movie.

alphanubilus · Post by **alphanubilus** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:44 am

Morkulv wrote:I always had the opinion that a thing like a duckie is way too lame for any kind of running gag, let alone stand for a cameo in a movie.

I dunno AWL had a Mickey Mouse cameo mid tf sequence... as well as included Kermit the Frog and Miss. Piggy in its credits... A duckie seems pretty tame in comparison to those.

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:00 pm

Fact is: AB will do what he sees as necessary to tell his story, which should beat anything we've seen this year easily.

Heck, the teaser on the original "Freeborn" site is better done than Blood and Chocolate and all the rest of this year's Werewolf offerings.
I get the feeling that the director and the producer didn't know squat about Were's beyond maybe AWL or even Lon Chaney Jr's "Wolf-man", in the current offerings. The assumption seems to have been that as a Werewolf, you brood frequently and dress excessively as compensation, and do a lot of staring at things. There is a certain lack of care in the productions of the last few years; almost as if making a Werewolf movie were a required product pre-requisite for something else-like making car commercials.
The Characters were un-memorable because they (a) had no story behind them, and (b) had no help from the director in fashioning their character. They didn't know who to be: so they just did the Method thing and stared at each other or the wall and said "lines".
There was a decided lack of interest in the whole sad mess on everyone's part.
"Cursed" was so bad it was silly ( a werewolf dog?) but at least the actors were trying to accomplish something. The way that the lead actress called out the female Werewolf by mentioning her "big thighs" was actually memorable...but that was it. The rest is a sort of semi-detective movie with Werewolves in it. I was more interested in figuring out "who done it" than in the Werewolf herself...although the costume was at least Wolfish, as opposed to "Underworld's Canine-Things that might have some wolf in them".
In a way, this might be good for "Freeborn" in that it will be different; and that alone will make it memorable.
In a way, the sucky Werewolf shlock we've seen so far is going to make "Freeborn's" Were's stand out as better and more rememberable; just from the costume angle alone. They will look like Werewolves, not "things"; and the different "nature of the beast" will stand out as original.
So maybe things aren't that bad, after all.

Kaebora · Post by **Kaebora** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:09 am

I can agree that the duckie would best be just sitting on a shelf in the background of a shot rather than a character actually making note of it, which I seriously doubt will happen. I wouldn't be all that broken up if no cameos are made at all.

Blue-eyes in the dark · Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:54 pm

aw i know i'd yelp out a howl in the theater if i saw that.

that would make it so worth it.

ABrownrigg · Post by **ABrownrigg** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:17 pm

Alright.. my response.

(rubs hands together)

I of course appreciate this discussion thread. I've been asked a lot about how I would respond to Matt.

here's my response.

Much appreciated.

It's always good to hear from other writers, and other filmmakers. As to what will and won't change. I can tell you that we've had a chance to walk away from the script for a bit, and will be going back into it soon.

Silver has been working on the sequel by herself, and is already delving into new territory.

the very purpose of putting the script OUT there, was for this particular thread.

There are some things that we 'won't do however. (I'm not addressing specifics in the thread yet, just my musings)

If violence is called for, there will be blood.. But as a director I refuse to stick random acts of violence in the script just for the sake of violence. Any and all violence should focus on the various elements of the bestial side of being werewolf, the temptations for power, and the 'human' ID as they relate to the plot. That's something silver and I tend to agree on.

we're not going for a 'safe' script, we're going for a script that has character development, and hits all aspects of an audience emotionally. If an audience is emotionally attached to the characters, then the focus can veer away from 'violence for violence sake, or effects for effects sake"

As to it's 'transformation fest'.. I believe that the script requires a good deal of it.. not because I'm a big fan of transformation. But ultimately being a werewolf is 'about' transforming into an animal. Not like a light switch. It taps on the very being of emotional descent into an area that you can be 'tempted' to do many things you wouldnt' normally do as a human, some good, some bad.

Silver and I both agree that while the transformations in the script are very descriptive, the actual 'visual' elements will vary depending on how the scene flows. The element of a transformation for a werewolf who is experienced, is vastly different than a first timer, and we want that established. But to what extent? We're revisiting that.

Each character in the script represents how the 'human' element of a werewolf often takes control. A butthead person, will usually make a butthead werewolf. Conversely someone that uses fear as a weapon will tend to use it thusly.

The 'romance' part of the film might be reworked, unfortunately after blood and Chocolate the 'werewolf and non werewolf love' might be a little too much.. might tone it down a bit, but I"ll have to get with silver on that.

But as Matt well knows, a screenplay is far from a novel, and simply a skeleton of a piece of cinema. Red Victoria was an attempt to bring to the horror movie what we've intended to bring to the werewolf genre. And thus far, it's worked in spades. Quite frankly im a bit surprised it's worked as well as it has, but we've had a large' group of viewers that aren't fans of horror films, but 'they like this one'.. while horror fans also seem to really enjoy it.

The idea is to erase stigma of 'werewolf film' means just evil monsters eating people. I think as a director i can make this film do that.

All the comments and support are quite welcome, I know there's things I haven't addressed yet, but I'm getting to it.

I thank Matt for his 'rant' (which ultimately, if you're in the film business, you have em folks, believe me), as well as alphanubis. All things are taken into consideration. The Red Victoria script had many revisions before production, as well as some along the way. As alphanubis, and matt both know once you get on set, stories tend to take their own life, and you have to nurture it not battle it.

One of the reasons Red Victoria has turned out as it has, is because of my attempt to illustrate the very point of how a script and film can wind up being vastly different, so long as you hold onto the vision and scope of the project. And it IS possible to create a genre story that crosses markets, and views things in different lights, while still being entertaining, and thought provoking, and above all fun.

http://www.thepack.network/thepackboard ... php?t=6758

The movie is designed for 'people'. No matter what their background, or genre faves. The werewolf fans, that'd be you, have a good deal of background in the premise of werewolves, and show to illustrate what 'people' (who aren't afraid to talk about it) like and don't like about werewolves. , and that's what we were focusing on getting.

And don't worry, we'll make sure the final product won't wind up being 'too many cooks in the kitchen'.. It WILL have a singular vision.

Sincerely,

AB

Ansuru · Post by **Ansuru** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:50 pm

Well, I'm not a screenwriter (I do dabble in creative fiction though), but it seems to me that taking the transformation stuff out of the script if it's slowing things down and muddying the motiviation for your characters makes sense. Save the text as notes/inspiration for when you're getting the CGI done, sure, but the script is there to tell the story, not describe every explosion (be it of fire or fur) on screen. Otherwise, the scripts for Arnold Schwarzenegger flicks would read like an episode of The Flintstones (Bam bam, boom boom!)

I haven't read the script, so I don't feel I can really say anything too definitive. It depends on how the tf sequences are done...I could see it being possible to use a few for character development if you worked at it, in which case they're needed in the script in order for it to make sense. If I was writing a text story, I'd have to describe them—hence my disclaimer that I'm not a screenwriter: I'm not really up on how much you need to tell in the text and how much you save to show on the screen.

Silverclaw · Post by **Silverclaw** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:53 pm

*claps*

IndianaJones · Post by **IndianaJones** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:33 pm

Cheers.

I am looking forward to it now.

Silver · Post by **Silver** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:39 pm

First off, you guys don't see a lot of me on this site. I read, but I rarely feel that my opinions are necessary. Usually someone says exactly what I was going to say, and better. So there's no need. Occasionally I'll get a wild hair and feel the need to toss out some text, but, again I rarely see me adding anything that you guys haven't already added just fine, thank you.

This time, however, I think I need to hit the keys. I'm the head writer of this flick, after all, and I'm as responsible as Anthony for what's on the page. (I don't think a lot of people know this). There is a lot that's been said, so bear with me — this is going to be a long one.

I'm going to try hard not to repeat what Anthony said — he's said it. I WILL say that any feedback, good, bad or indifferent, is appreciated and necessary. We want it, we need it, - we know it.

For those professionals on this site, I am also a professional screen writer, not just a friend of Anthony's. I've even won an award or two. Anthony has many, many more than I. We've each been doing this for over 30 years. Why do I write this? So that those of you who feel that professionals may have a better idea of good versus bad scripts — or good versus bad movies, can be assured that we have some credentials. We never saw that as important, however. Lots of professionals have made WW movies. Lots......lots.....lots. I hope this covers the whole professional issue.

Matt, I remember your comments from before as well as now. Everyone has a right to their opinions. We began the PACK website specifically to get opinions and we are still just as interested as before. You have shared your work with us as we have with you and I think the feedback has been honest. I still do. And I think you would agree, Matt, that other folks who aren't writers or film makers have valuable opinions. Anthony and I never felt that films or screenplays made us experts on werewolves — or on what werewolf fans wanted to see. The ultimate thing was the opinions of those who loved the genre and had been involved in it. The “experts” are those folks.

We could have gotten something out there without ever starting this site. Didn't need it to make a werewolf film. We still don't need it to make one. Investors — money folks — didn't really care what a bunch of folks on a web site said. Not back when we started this.

What we DID, for those old dogs who remember the beginning, was read everything that was written, ask questions and come up with what we could see as the most commonly agreed on things. I even had a little thread where I listed those common opinions and asked for feedback on them.

You know the old saying, you can please some people all of the time and all of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. Not everyone has the same vision. In fact some people have opinions in direct conflict with other folks. Some folks have opinions that are in direct conflict with their own opinions a couple of years ago, or even on the same thread. Well, that happens. We grow and our views change. I took those common opinions and went over them countless times. Even made the other writers and conceptual artists do the same. Then we put it away and wrote. Your opinions were the rules by which we conceived the world of these WWs. We did not put them in a hat, pull them out, and stick in plots to cover them. There was, and is a unity of vision.

When we were done, we went back to be sure we hadn't bent those original concepts, and we really hadn't. Now, being away from it for a while, is a good time to go back and see it with fresh eyes, and with your current opinions in mind.

We aren't perfect. That's why we keep going back to you experts. Some subjects to respond to:

PACK SYMBOL — okay maybe there's some misunderstanding here. The symbol that was part of the movie became a Pack symbol, not the other way around. It is a part of the movie — not a big part, but a part never the less. Symbols are always a way of cultures identifying each other. And what's wrong with a symbol? If it makes people feel a part of it, good. They ARE. Ask any of the old dogs who've read the script and been around from the beginning. What's wrong with feeling that they are?

As for duckies — they'll be in only if appropriate, in a corner or on a windowsill where only we would notice them. That's what they're for, right? Unless real WWs wear rubber ducky hats (other than at conventions) or have glow in the dark posters on their front windows, it probably wouldn't be appropriate in our film.

LONG TIME NO SEE — Where's the film? I have a question — anybody got six to nine million dollars lying around and want to give it to us to make the movie with? You might get some or all of it back. Or if you don't have it, how about coming up with it for us? How long will it take you to get it together?

See, we're independent film makers. We don't have it either We don't work for a big film company that can tell us the transformation has to stop at claws and veins because there's a deadline. Anthony had to prove to the folks that HAVE money, that they aren't sinking it down a hole of really new WW ideas.

Side note: if special effects are easily made on home computers, all those film companies with lots of money — why don't they have better transformation scenes? Or any? Logical answer, it's not that easy or cheap to do it right. Do you want to see crap? WE don't want to see crap. On with the saga.

Red Vic was the way to say “See, new ideas can be good and make money.” He had to come up with money for THAT film — see the first paragraph of this section. Then he had to get GOOD actors who would work long hours for nothing, that might lead to nothing. Then the film had to be made with hardware store equipment, and home computer special effects (see paragraph 3). Then it had to be edited, shown to a test audience, edited some more, shown again...well you get the idea. Now we have something to show and say “See, WE can take revolutionary ideas and make them marketable.” Next step, getting Red Vic out to enough of the money people to be able to make Freeborn.

FUNERAL SCENE. I wrote the funeral scene. Cheri was dead. We weren't going to flush her with the goldfish. We needed something to show a culture that honored their dead in a way that left no traces for forensics. After all, there is still no empirical evidence that WWs exist so they have worked at hiding it for centuries. I wanted it to show a people who had deep history all our own. But I'm MORE than happy to take ideas on what a funeral would be like. REALLY happy. Funerals say an immense amount about their cultures. If you guys aren't tired of handing us opinions, please set up a topic and let me know!!

Bottom line. Anthony and I love this genre. We want to do something good with it — make a contribution that will be remembered. We know you guys want to see something that respects the genre and maybe takes it to a new level. We're trying guys.

nekocj · Post by **nekocj** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:13 pm

First of all thank you both for posting. Its good to hear from you two again

. Second of all, Anthony, please don't stray too far from a werewolf love story because personally that was the biggest appeal for me. Yeah Blood and Chocolate kind of botched it, but that was based off a good book and adapted by a big studio which usually spells "make it hip and now" and your writing something a little more original. You don't have that specific criteria to go by; on that note make it better than B&C! Take that revolutionary idea Silver was talking about and make it marketable to the film crowd. Make it work and show people that yeah you can make a werewolf love story and have it work!

Silver, I really wish I could get you guys nine mil

maybe we could take up a pack collection

maybe we can come close

well maybe not too close but every little bit helps right? What do you pack mates say?

No matter what goes down I am still with you guys 100% and I would love to see this movie no matter what happens and how much special effects are in it. The passion that you two in particular are putting into trying to make it will make it worth it 100 times over. Keep it up and if you ever get stressed just come on here and toss some duckies around and you'll feel right as the mail

Take care.

Neko

Silver · Post by **Silver** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:07 pm

Thanks for the feedback, Neko. For a while there I was afraid I'd chased everybody off.

We're not necessarily taking the love story out- but we're definitely re-visiting the script. We'll take everything you guys wrote and keep them in mind as we go back over things.

Thanks for the support and patience.

Silver

alphanubilus · Post by **alphanubilus** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:08 pm

And Sliver, as well as AB, I hope that my ramblings didn't give you the impression that I didn't believe either of you were professionals. Because that wasn't my intentions. I never doubted your abilities to make a movie, nor screenwrite. As I stated before, Freeborn, even in its early form, contains a lot of grand ideas, but as I mentioned earlier on in this thread, I had issues with the script, as it stands. I already addressed my thoughts earlier, so I don't feel the need to bore anyone with them again.

I tend to be very hard on story and screenplays in general, but not any more than I am on myself. I finished 80 pages of my current script, and I kept having this aching feeling that something wasn't write. Guess what... I've taken it back to formula. While I will be able to salvage quite a bit of what I've already written, I will have to rewrite a quite a bit. I'm just that way. It has to be perfect and it has to move perfectly.

Even with Hour of Darkness, I quietly rewrote and got rid of a few scenes, and in some cases altered the story completely in some ways. H.O.D., and I kid you not, has had nearly 15 revisions. It's a process, but as always, it is well worth it.

I think we, as writers, especially screenwriters, have to be hard on ourselves. We've certainly seen the horrors created when there is nobody but "yesmen" in the studios. Van Helsing is a fine testament to that. Everybody caught in the coolness of the concept, but nobody seemed to notice that the story made absolutely no sense what so ever.

So I hope to continue to be a contributing factor...

Also... if you need any help with the writing bit, please let me know. I wish I could help with the finances, but alas, at least at this point, I can't. Never know though... sell a script or two, or three, that might change... work work work work work work work...

By the way... I've given Freeborn feedback, so when will I hear feedback about H.O.D.?

WerewolfKeeper3 · Post by **WerewolfKeeper3** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:26 pm

Figarou wrote:
Dreamer wrote:
Agreed. The call goes out to all of you guys now: Those of you whom have problmems with the script, send e-mails to Anthony ASAP and tell him about them so that he can consider them and re-write the script with those in mind if he thinks the complaints are legit. This goes double for you Matt. After all, we don't want Freeborn to turn into a big steaming pile of disappointment when it comes out, now do we?

Problems with the script?

I'm not well educated enough to point out flaws......whats needed...what needs to be removed...changed....ETC.

Let AB and the experts handle it.

True, but even someone who has no idea of what needs to be in a story and what doesn't, knows what sounds good. I haven't read the script, (mostly because we haven't found it yet. Any help people?) but if something doesn't sound good, or make sense to me, then i'm probably not the only one who thinks so. Besides, how do we know it won't be better because of the flaws? Sometimes, mistakes can turn out to be something even better than what was intended. I say let AB and the experts make the final descions, but we can still discuss things, can't we? Then again, i'm just the insane guy with a werewolf in my head.

({Shrugs} So? Half the population has that voice they talk to at night when no one else is around. I just happen to make myself known more often. And anyway, the ones who are voiceing their opinions are the some of same ones that will go to see the movie, right? Why can't they help him decide what's in the movie? Besides, wasn't it the fans that made him change his mind about how this movie was going to work? If he can get some ideas that can make the story better by reading about what we bicker about on these boards, i say go for it.

)

WereWolfBoy · Post by **WereWolfBoy** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:53 pm

i agree with keeper just keep calm

Scott Gardener · Post by **Scott Gardener** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:52 pm

Thanks, Silver, for the crash reminder of what The Pack has been for in the first place. And, thanks for keeping the faith.

Kzinistzerg · Post by **Kzinistzerg** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:10 pm

Thanks for the answers, AB and Silver.

My only leetle teeny weeny thing is that the Pack symbol has evolved a bit to more than just a freeborn thing. At no point can I take your creation away from you, and that's not the point of this post... but...

IF the symbol has a teeny almost-cameo-like part in the movie, no objections (like carl wearing a symbol in RV). But if it's larger than that, the symbol will become associated with the movie itself for the general public, and so far, the symbol has been taken as representative of The Pack, not the movie.

So instad of getting asked, "what's the symbol on your necklace?" and being able to answer, "The symbol of The Pack, a werewolf enthusiast community," we then have to answer, "well it's this symbol from a movie"...

Get what I'm saying? Ultimately your choice, of course (but I can't remember precisely how big of an element the symbol was in the movie, though I got to read the screenplay).

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:37 pm

Silver wrote:Thanks for the feedback, Neko. For a while there I was afraid I'd chased everybody off.

We're not necessarily taking the love story out- but we're definitely re-visiting the script. We'll take everything you guys wrote and keep them in mind as we go back over things.

Thanks for the support and patience.

Silver

Arrghhh! Please don't take the love story out! It motivates the reason that the Wulf has for getting involved with a Smoothskin, and thus motivates the interactions that make Freeborn different.

By making it possible for a Werewolf to develop a relationship with someone not Wulfen themselves, it opens up the native humainty of Werewolves, as opposed to the current "potential food source" or "potential slave population" that seems the thing in Werewolf films now.
That is when they're not fighting Vampires (for access to the hairdresser).

Yeah, Beauty and the Beast is an old theme, but why not let Beauty desire to become the beast, instead of the old humanocentric "Beast becoming the Beauty"? That was one of the grabbers in the old tickler about Freeborn for me.
A Werewolf finds love with a Smoothskin and the Smoothskin chooses the become Werewolf-that's new!

There are a lot of potential storylines if you leave the Werewolf = Monster schtick behind and treat them as a separate but similar People who have to hide just to survive. Lots of stories to tell there...

nekocj · Post by **nekocj** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:12 am

"Smoothskin"? Lol is that what the werewolves refer to humans as in the script? I haven't read it sadly, or is that just your thing Redeye?

Either way I might adopt that : D

Honestly Kzinistzerg I kind of like the idea of the symbol representing Freeborn since that was the original association for it. Why can't it refer to us and to Freeborn? Aren't we an element of the film? I mean I know they won't mention "The Pack" in the film as in reference to an online web community for werewolf fans, but still we helped contribute to the film in our own way so why not?

-Neko

Silver · Post by **Silver** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:03 am

It goes something like this -

In the script, at the funeral, one person draws something on a piece of paper and tosses it in the fire. Someone else asks, "What is that?"
The first person says, "It's a message I'm sending to the other side. It means, "This is a good person, do right by them." This piece lasts about a minute

Later on in the movie, a group is in the midst of making plans to leave. A third person comes to the first person. He has the symbol drawn on a piece of paper. The first person looks at it and says, "Okay, you can come with us." Then they continue with their plans. This piece lasts about 30 seconds.

It sounds kinda strange out of context, but that's the extent of the symbol's piece it's in the movie but it's never a major thing. Does that help you guys with this issue?

And we really don't expect you guys to come up with the money. I was just showing why us indies (independent film makers), can't make a big budget movie in the time that the major studios do.

JoshuaMadoc · Post by **JoshuaMadoc** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 9:50 am

Uncle Redeye, i think it's appropriate for me to remind you that Heroes season 2 bombed badly because it had a love story, which i thought was lame -- I was expecting that Hiro would hold arms WITH Kensei and not against him, not pash Kensei's girl and thus earning his wrath.

But on the other hand, if Silver or Mr. Brownrigg makes a love story that doesn't interfere with the pace of the movie a la foreign drama movies -- no americanized plot formula, no "script", just natural subtle flow... Think Kikujiro, among other Beat Takeshi movies of its type -- then i think it might stand a chance.

But i doubt even one or two people among you guys even know the movies i'm talking about...

WerewolfKeeper3 · Post by **WerewolfKeeper3** » Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:16 am

Wow, wait a sec.
The Human becomes a werewolf?
Sweet. Yeah, i agree with RedEye. DON'T TAKE OUT THE LOVE STORY!
Hey, wait a sec. I thought RedEye hated romance novels?
(He does. Doesn't mean he can't enjoy a good love story in a movie though. Besides, you're sappy as hell whenit comes to a romance thing in your story. Remember, Kelsey's meeting?
http://werewolfking6.deviantart.com/art ... g-68132528)
Yeah i know. Sorry RedEye.