Surgery for tails or wings

Howlitzer · Post by **Howlitzer** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:10 am

Dreamer wrote:Well, I have mixed feelings about genetic alteration for transhumanist purposes. ON one hand, it would be awesome and probably the only possible way of creating true lycanthropy. ON the other, we might end up with a situation like in Gattaca, so governmental measures would be needted to keep an undrclass from being created.

Well in Gattaca there wasn't a genetically created "underclass"... it was a genetically superior "upper class" which was created, not specifically for that purpose, but rather because our technology had allowed us to pretty much rid our children of disease and defects before they were born.

That's the problem... regardless of laws to prevent genetically engineering a labor class....if we start "optimizing" our children, that process will undoubtedly cost money. And where there's things that cost money, there's people who can't afford it....and where there's a garantee that a person will be healthy, versus the unknown of the regular human being, insurance companies do their magic and screw us over....

there ya go.

WereWolfBoy · Post by **WereWolfBoy** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:59 am

i would love to have a wolf pelt and claws then maybe i can become what i desire most

Dreamer · Post by **Dreamer** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:51 am

Also, on the whole "Permanent fursuits" idea that this entails, they did a take on that in this freeware RPG I've been playing called "Barkley: Shut up and Jam Gaiden". BAsically, it's a village of furries in the sewers who have surgically altered themselves to look like the anthromorphic creatures of their choice, but had to flee to the sewers because people were tormenting them on the surface, tryign to kill them. It's implied that people still go dow nthere and harass them, sometimes tryign to kill them.

Teh_DarkJokerWolf · Post by **Teh_DarkJokerWolf** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:26 am

Absolutely not... As a therian I feel that patience is a sound. I will not let science give me wat I feel will come to me in good time. I believe all therians will experience the change so why would I allow some human to mess with something I see coming to me naturally? Besides with this there could be so many side affects. Fake wings? Hell no, you couldn't even fly!! No thanks, science does have alot of good no doubt about that, but I would never trust science that far to alter me to that much of an extreme. I would not ever suggest anyone to try this. I'd rather wait for the real thing, then have parts added to me I could never fully or ever use...

Dreamer · Post by **Dreamer** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:27 am

Teh_DarkJokerWolf wrote:Absolutely not... As a therian I feel that patience is a sound. I will not let science give me wat I feel will come to me in good time. I believe all therians will experience the change so why would I allow some human to mess with something I see coming to me naturally?

Not to be mean or anything, but that's just freaking hillariously impossible that I'd laugh at you if we were less well acquainted.

Anyway, I still would be in favor of using genetics-altering viroids in the future (You know, the kind that we routinely use in our werewolf stories and that scientists are kinda working on it now in the form of viral genetic therapy) when they become available rather than comparably crude plastic surgery (Which would probably wouldn't be that effective in changing your appearance very well, and could ahve nasty side effects), although I do agree that the problems in GATTACA could come out if we aren't too careful in embracing this new technology. Which is why the transumanists who are tooting the horns for genetic manipulation should come up with some ideas for preventing a genetically-engineered permanent upper class from happening (Which would be kind of comparable to artificial intelligence creators trying to come up with ideas to prevent a real-life Skynet). I don't know why Scott GArdner hasn't thrrown in his two cents o nthis yet, seeign as he is our resident transhumanist so thsi should be his cup of tea.

Teh_DarkJokerWolf · Post by **Teh_DarkJokerWolf** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:44 pm

Dreamer wrote:
Teh_DarkJokerWolf wrote:Absolutely not... As a therian I feel that patience is a sound. I will not let science give me wat I feel will come to me in good time. I believe all therians will experience the change so why would I allow some human to mess with something I see coming to me naturally?
Not to be mean or anything, but that's just freaking hillariously impossible that I'd laugh at you if we were less well acquainted.

Dreamer you can believe wat you want and I will believe wat I want. If you feel it's impossible then that's you. There are plenty of others therians not just myself who believe in this. Who are you to say wats possible yourself unless you can see the future or if your God or some other higher being for that matter? Your trying to base everything on science and the laws of physics like EVERYONE does...

No problem with that tho, but there is more to the world around you then you know. You have to explore that and your own mind and do research in places you might not have thought to look before. I have done that and more, tho I'd rather not get to terribly off topic here, feel free to laugh Dreamer, your laughter or words will not change my beliefs because I have felt like this and believed in it for many years.

Dreamer wrote: Anyway, I still would be in favor of using genetics-altering viroids in the future (You know, the kind that we routinely use in our werewolf stories and that scientists are kinda working on it now in the form of viral genetic therapy) when they become available rather than comparably crude plastic surgery (Which would probably wouldn't be that effective in changing your appearance very well, and could ahve nasty side effects), although I do agree that the problems in GATTACA could come out if we aren't too careful in embracing this new technology. Which is why the transumanists who are tooting the horns for genetic manipulation should come up with some ideas for preventing a genetically-engineered permanent upper class from happening (Which would be kind of comparable to artificial intelligence creators trying to come up with ideas to prevent a real-life Skynet). I don't know why Scott GArdner hasn't thrrown in his two cents o nthis yet, seeign as he is our resident transhumanist so thsi should be his cup of tea.

I still refuse to let any human alter me anyway. See you can do wat you wish Dreamer but I will not tell you not to believe in it nor do it. It's your body and your own belief, I will not insult it nor talk against it. I am talking only for myself now. Everyone is free to do wat they want with their own body. I just know this would be a big mistake on my part to do it. I am not even tempted by it, but I just wanted to throw in a bit of wat I thought about it.

Anónimo Juan · Post by **Anónimo Juan** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:01 am

I am not therian nor something like that, but guys, doesn't this sound too damn unnatural?

From what I've seen, we have a more natural and "human" view to all the anthro creatures here on the Pack, and as my buddy Joker said, who knows what could happen to your body?

Howlitzer · Post by **Howlitzer** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:13 am

yeah...just a wee bit unnatural...

I think a lot of us have very good reasons to be against this kind of thing...no matter whether your reasons are based on ethics, faith, or just plain old common sense, there's a million reasons not to do this. At first thought I was like "that's very weird, but kinda cool"....but the more I think about it the more the idea just seems, well, bad. I wouldn't do this to myself in the first place, absolutely not...but if I was even a little bit tempted there's still countless reasons not to. Especially if it's a permanent alteration...the idea of it being permanent...well...no. There's no going back after that, and there would be side effects that you're bound to overlook.

Full blown, 100% real werewolf with the ability to transform = uh, yes... awesome idea. Figure that out and get back to me on that and we might have something

Surgical alteration to permanently alter your body's appearance= no...

Genetic alteration to permanently alter your body's appearance= very bad idea...

Using a man-made virus to do any of this= someone deserves a dope slap...several of them

I mean, doing it to yourself with surgery or genetic alteration just isn't the same as the real thing, when your body is naturally that way.

And think about this...the better we get at being able to modify ourselves on smaller and more complex levels, the worse the possibilities get as to what it would look like if something went wrong.

nekocj · Post by **nekocj** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:42 pm

I'm not going to get into it because I don't want to piss anyone off but this is all a very bad idea. That's just my opinion and I have some strong reasoning to back it up, but like I said I don't want anyone to get mad at me

-Neko

Set · Post by **Set** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:13 pm

With everything comes risk. If one never takes risks, one can never get anywhere. I'd like to see them continue to work on this.

And for those of you who think it's a bad idea...how is it any different than, say, Botox (injecting poison into the skin), facelifts (stapling the skin on your face behind your ears), fake breasts, or any other form of plastic surgery?

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:21 pm

Uhhh, folks...
You don't want to be altered in any way? If you had a smallpox vaccination, you already have been. That's why smallpox is virtually extinct, outside of the laboratory.

As for Morphological Alteration (body shape changes) lemmesee;
Braces, circumcision, and 'tucks are all Morphological Alterations, as are the "enhancement" of certain female assets in the chest area.

The question of "Fur" or "Fangs" or "Claws", etc. are just variations on the theme we already see every day. Ooooh! Don't forget contact lenses!
Perhaps today, such things as tails, fur, fangs and all the rest of the goodies required to make you an Anthropomorphic Wolf or other critter would be viewed with alarm; but suppose such things actually enhanced your ability to survive? Suppose that these are genetic, and you could pass them on to your kids, helping them to survive in a world that has become different from the one our species evolved to fit into so well?
There are possible scenarios being debated today that could make such changes desirable, rather than weird...
You couldn't stay inside all the time; somebody has to harvest the crops we eat...
Think about it.

Howlitzer · Post by **Howlitzer** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:39 pm

yeah, obviously altering ourselves proves necessary at times...however.

smallpox vaccinations don't actually change your genetic code, they simply let your body build up an immunity to a virus without your body having to actually be infected by the REAL virus...

and contact lenses, braces and such, those are all alterations to fill a physiological NEED....you need to see, and you need to have adequately straight teeth....

if we were thrown into a world where fur, claws, fangs, etc ACTUALLY allowed us to survive better... by a considerable amount... that would change everything...

but what we're talking about here is mainly for looks, less for function. It is geared about as much towards survival as a nose job or breast implants are...

nekocj · Post by **nekocj** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:12 pm

Wow even not posting my reasons I still get negative replies even though that's what I was trying to avoid

Interesting.

Well I'm trying not to have everyone throw hellfire and brimstone at me so I shall take my leave from the topic. Sorry I mentioned anything

-Neko

Midnight · Post by **Midnight** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:34 am

Neko... just because people mightn't agree with something you say doesn't mean they hate you or anything like that... Personally I'd be interested in hearing your reasons, not because of any desire to shoot them down or anything but because they're most likely an interesting perspective that I won't have seen the issue from before.

Personally... I see this sort of body modification as more akin to tattoos and piercings than to vaccinations or lifestyle surgery. I also don't see anything wrong with it, but probably wouldn't get it done to myself. At least not just yet. I've got no objection to either tattoos or piercings (I don't see myself getting piercings, but the only reason I don't already have a tattoo is that I haven't found a design I really want, yet). And there's already some quite weird and vaguely animal looking body modification fanatics about; who's to guess what will or will not be "mainstream" in forty or fifty years' time?

Teh_DarkJokerWolf · Post by **Teh_DarkJokerWolf** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:45 pm

Oh I love how this topic died upon me mentioning my therian belief. I know there are alot of therians on here so I really wished I had been backed up here. Neko no one hates you I know I don't. Anyone is free to express themselves as long as they do not insult someone or become disrespectful. Body Mod is fine, it's ur body I just wouldn't do it. Simple tings like tats an piercings in my eyes are fine, but even then you have to be careful and make sure the person knows wat their doing.

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:54 pm

Teh_DarkJokerWolf wrote:Oh I love how this topic died upon me mentioning my therian belief. I know there are alot of therians on here so I really wished I had been backed up here. Neko no one hates you I know I don't. Anyone is free to express themselves as long as they do not insult someone or become disrespectful. Body Mod is fine, it's ur body I just wouldn't do it. Simple tings like tats an piercings in my eyes are fine, but even then you have to be careful and make sure the person knows wat their doing.

Joker, I suspect a lot of people are nervous about admitting to being therians, simply because they don't really know what Therianthropy is, to begin with.
I know that I tried several sources for reference, and only got opinions, not facts or usable theories. Wiki is surprisingly not helpful about this BTW.
Perhaps we should try for an acceptable definition as to what being a therian is all about, and go from there?

Midnight · Post by **Midnight** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:58 am

Teh_DarkJokerWolf wrote:Oh I love how this topic died upon me mentioning my therian belief. I know there are alot of therians on here so I really wished I had been backed up here. Neko no one hates you I know I don't. Anyone is free to express themselves as long as they do not insult someone or become disrespectful. Body Mod is fine, it's ur body I just wouldn't do it. Simple tings like tats an piercings in my eyes are fine, but even then you have to be careful and make sure the person knows wat their doing.

The main reason I didn't add anything much to what you'd said to Dreamer is that you'd countered his argument perfectly well and anything I could have added would only have been flame bait.

That statement of yours that I highlighted... that is so true that it should be the basic rule of the Internet. I've got no problem with debate. I enjoy reading other people's opinions and don't expect them to be the same as mine (if everyone agreed with me life would be incredibly boring!).

Your opinion you shared with us... that's what you live your life by and you're not demanding that anyone else live by it. Nobody is being harmed by it and therefore it is nobody else's business.

And as far as I'm concerned being Therian is a matter of the soul. Matters of the soul are not anything I have any knowledge of or experience of (nobody has yet managed to convince me that I even have one in the first place). But they are very personal matters and, again, it is nobody's business but your own to understand and describe your soul, just as it is nobody's business but your own whether or not you'd modify your body.

Lycanthrope · Post by **Lycanthrope** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:10 am

RedEye wrote:Perhaps we should try for an acceptable definition as to what being a therian is all about, and go from there?

I'm afraid that it wouldn't be easy. As far as I know there are multiple definitions, not necessarily describing the same beliefs and Therianthropy/Therianism covers all of them. If we happen to find a universal definition I think it can be too general to be of any use. This is why, to avoid any misunderstandings, if someone has decided to mention one's beliefs one should shortly explain what they are about. The terminology is also a problem. Sometimes it's almost impossible to know whether someone is therian, role-playing, making fun of the community or has emotional problems.

WereWolfBoy · Post by **WereWolfBoy** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:27 am

people the way that they are in the world with being close minded and everything there is no way were's can be alone besides teh idea of a therian resides within the person him/herself.

im just telling ya what i think.

Set · Post by **Set** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:21 pm

As far as I know there are multiple definitions, not necessarily describing the same beliefs and Therianthropy/Therianism covers all of them.

*sigh* People make things so much more complicated than they need to be...

A Therian is simply someone who believes that they are, in some way, an animal. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Lycanthrope · Post by **Lycanthrope** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:11 pm

Set wrote:A Therian is simply someone who believes that they are, in some way, an animal. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Well, that was easier than I expected.

Still, this is what most of us already instinctively understand but not something that will let us avoid the misunderstandings. Even this definition implies there being many versions of the belief and it's that variety that causes the problems.

IndianaJones · Post by **IndianaJones** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:03 pm

When a "Normal" Sheeple (Human) sees something that is out of the ordinary, outside the thinking box, original, strange, and beyond will make them closed-minded ignorant people. When they don't understand something or you. You will be laughed at again, ridiculed, and ignored again.

People see something different, they quickly become closed-minded and even act stupid. Like making stupid comments or even racial slurs. I seen it all the time on YouTube videos. Mostly the popular ones.

It's best for us to keep it to ourselves when the time is right to speak out and share it in a understandable way.

Always keep an open-mind guys. The world we live in is strange.

Midnight · Post by **Midnight** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:49 am

OK. Indiana... I'm one of those "normal human" people (in the context of this discussion, anyway) and can assure you that what you have described is not my reaction when I see something "outside the square". Personally I try not to generalise or stereotype Therians (or other groups, like Americans, for that matter) and would appreciate if you returned the courtesy.

IndianaJones · Post by **IndianaJones** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:38 am

I am not stereotyping, but what I am saying is true. It really does happen.

I think I should leave that sheeple thing away from this forum. Buy, being normal everyday is fine and all, but can you really define what is "Normal" hmm? It is not your reaction, I know you are open-minded.

I advise you guys to stay away from this website. http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Main_Page
That place pisses me off and bothers me. It may even offend everyone. The place where the Internet Anonymous people hang out at to personalize and hate half of the world.

Aki · Post by **Aki** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:16 pm

Howlitzer wrote: but what we're talking about here is mainly for looks, less for function. It is geared about as much towards survival as a nose job or breast implants are...

Who said all alterations needed be practical?

Tattoos serve little purpose but people still get them, as well as other things like piercings and such in spite of the health risks associated with injecting ink between skin layers or ramming metal through flesh.

This is, in principle, little different, though in practice much more complex.

Risks? Sure. But fortune favors the bold.

IndianaJones wrote:I am not stereotyping, but what I am saying is true. It really does happen.

I think I should leave that sheeple thing away from this forum. Buy, being normal everyday is fine and all, but can you really define what is "Normal" hmm? It is not your reaction, I know you are open-minded.

I advise you guys to stay away from this website. http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Main_Page
That place pisses me off and bothers me. It may even offend everyone. The place where the Internet Anonymous people hang out at to personalize and hate half of the world.

Now you're the one not understanding. Taking Anonymous seriously, especially when it's Encylopedia Dramatica (name's a dead giveaway) is foolish. Anonymous is only very rarely serious in belief (Only example I can think of? The struggle against Scientology), otherwise it's purely for the laughs.

Getting angry at Anonymous is just silly. You need to relax and learn to laugh at things more. People would be less frustrated by Anon if they learned to step back, look at themselves and laugh.