After puberty, better transformation control?

[NightmareHero]

I was thinking, that an adult that has been transforming since birth should be able to control their transformation, their "urge" at or after the onset of puberty. Maybe by their 20s. As a child they would be forced to transform every full moon...

I heard in other threads some discussion about this, what does everyone think regarding this specific issue?

[Xodiac]

Hmm... seems logical enough in general, but I think you're being too specific. I would think enough experience would give better control no matter when you started transforming. The first few times, maybe even the first few years, they would transform at each full moon, but over time they would be better able to restrain themselves.

*IF* someone can be born as a werewolf - not assured, at least not in this setting - then this period of uncontrolled change would likely last at least as long as potty training. But puberty seems too long, to me. There's nothing about the hormonal changes of puberty that stike me as a logical aid to controlling a change like this. It actually strikes me that the kid would learn how to control it (if it can be controlled at all) by age 6 to 8. The onset of puberty would actually make him more likely to change uncontrollably, or make it harder to control the change (which is effectively the same thing) for a year or three. And being a teenager, with the teenager's typical, "f*** you, don't tell ME what to do or how to be, I am what I am and I'll do what I like" attitude, may be ABLE to control the change, but might not WANT to.

In other words, to my mind, experience gives control, but puberty would actually bring on a greater chance of changing uncontrollably, or when objective wisdom would advise otherwise.

[Vuldari]

Hmm... seems logical enough in general, but I think you're being too specific. I would think enough experience would give better control no matter when you started transforming. The first few times, maybe even the first few years, they would transform at each full moon, but over time they would be better able to restrain themselves.

*IF* someone can be born as a werewolf - not assured, at least not in this setting - then this period of uncontrolled change would likely last at least as long as potty training. But puberty seems too long, to me. There's nothing about the hormonal changes of puberty that stike me as a logical aid to controlling a change like this. It actually strikes me that the kid would learn how to control it (if it can be controlled at all) by age 6 to 8. The onset of puberty would actually make him more likely to change uncontrollably, or make it harder to control the change (which is effectively the same thing) for a year or three. And being a teenager, with the teenager's typical, "f*** you, don't tell ME what to do or how to be, I am what I am and I'll do what I like" attitude, may be ABLE to control the change, but might not WANT to.

In other words, to my mind, experience gives control, but puberty would actually bring on a greater chance of changing uncontrollably, or when objective wisdom would advise otherwise.

...yup. Teenagers are crazy.

[NightmareHero]

Hmm... seems logical enough in general, but I think you're being too specific. I would think enough experience would give better control no matter when you started transforming. The first few times, maybe even the first few years, they would transform at each full moon, but over time they would be better able to restrain themselves.

*IF* someone can be born as a werewolf - not assured, at least not in this setting - then this period of uncontrolled change would likely last at least as long as potty training. But puberty seems too long, to me. There's nothing about the hormonal changes of puberty that stike me as a logical aid to controlling a change like this. It actually strikes me that the kid would learn how to control it (if it can be controlled at all) by age 6 to 8. The onset of puberty would actually make him more likely to change uncontrollably, or make it harder to control the change (which is effectively the same thing) for a year or three. And being a teenager, with the teenager's typical, "f*** you, don't tell ME what to do or how to be, I am what I am and I'll do what I like" attitude, may be ABLE to control the change, but might not WANT to.

In other words, to my mind, experience gives control, but puberty would actually bring on a greater chance of changing uncontrollably, or when objective wisdom would advise otherwise.

True, true, you make some good points....Lets see what the story requires of them to do for this case, if at all.

[ShadowFang]

I have mixed thoughts about this topic. Everyone has brought up good points. But I had to stop and think, "should the even occur before puberty?". Here is why I think not.

-Puberty is hard enough on a person both physically and mentally. A transformation before a child hits puberty would be devastating. Their bodies most likely won't be able to handle the transformation and they would end up dying.

Perhaps once the hormones kick in the "virus" as everyone calls it kicks in and a child would go through his first transformation at around 12-13. That is of course, provided he/she was born a werewolf. Should anyone get bitten before this age, the "virus" remains dormant until the body stats to change during puberty.

[Terastas]

A werewolf's ability to control his shift should be decided by how long s/he has been a werewolf as opposed to how far past puberty they are. Just the opposite for me in fact -- I imagine a toddler werewolf would have less trouble controlling the shift than an adult bitten within the last year would. The reasoning is that, though a child's body is more fragile, they would still have had the lycanthropic syndrome for 100% of their mortal lifetime -- they would not only be able to control it, they would have trouble understanding why others cannot because they would have never known life without it. The tricky part wouldn't be teaching them how to control the shift, but teaching them when they can shapeshift and when they cannot.

As for puberty... That's a tough one. On one hand, you have the sense of teenage rebellion, but ultimately I think that would pale in comparrison to the pressures of being a werewolf surrounded by judgemental human teens. As children, they could get away with proclaiming to be werewolves because, hey, who hasn't had a kid growl at them and attack their legs, but once you reach a certain age, your parents can't pass that off as playing pretend any more. Teen werewolves know themselves to be werewolves and will have accepted by now that they are werewolves, but they'll have learned by this time what the human society thinks of werewolves and will fear the possibilities of what will happen should any of their piers find out. They'll be insecure about wether their acting human enough, will wonder if any phrases like "lone wolf" or "wazzup dawg!" are being used as innuendos towards their lycanthropy... Basically, they'll want to distance themselves from pop culture more than their parents. Heck, if anything, they might bond with their parents even more during their teen years because their packmates will be the only ones that understand what it's like to be a werewolf.

[Vuldari]

I have mixed thoughts about this topic. Everyone has brought up good points. But I had to stop and think, "should the even occur before puberty?". Here is why I think not.

-Puberty is hard enough on a person both physically and mentally. A transformation before a child hits puberty would be devastating. Their bodies most likely won't be able to handle the transformation and they would end up dying.

I would just like to say that I HATE the whole Puberty=First Shift scenario.
Would children under 13 usually die? ...yeah, they probobly would. "Boo hoo..."
Llife sucks like that sometimes.

Don't get me wrong...I'd feel bad for the kid. I really would.
It just seems a bit too convinient to me that the Curse/Virus would have a safety net like that built in to it.

Long story short...Don't let kids become werewolves.

[WolvenOne]

My only comments on this would be.

A: I would probably avoid the entire full moon bit.

B: I'm thinking that a pre puberty werewolf would have a resistence to changing due to the fact that it'd likely kill them. They may have a slightly more difficult time during thier teenage years, when that resistence dissappears and thier emotions are in overdrive. However, I imagine that as they grew up they'd eventually have greater controll as an adult then a non-naturally born werewolf.

[ChaosWolf]

A werewolf's ability to control his shift should be decided by how long s/he has been a werewolf as opposed to how far past puberty they are. Just the opposite for me in fact -- I imagine a toddler werewolf would have less trouble controlling the shift than an adult bitten within the last year would. The reasoning is that, though a child's body is more fragile, they would still have had the lycanthropic syndrome for 100% of their mortal lifetime -- they would not only be able to control it, they would have trouble understanding why others cannot because they would have never known life without it. The tricky part wouldn't be teaching them how to control the shift, but teaching them when they can shapeshift and when they cannot.

As for puberty... That's a tough one. On one hand, you have the sense of teenage rebellion, but ultimately I think that would pale in comparrison to the pressures of being a werewolf surrounded by judgemental human teens. As children, they could get away with proclaiming to be werewolves because, hey, who hasn't had a kid growl at them and attack their legs, but once you reach a certain age, your parents can't pass that off as playing pretend any more. Teen werewolves know themselves to be werewolves and will have accepted by now that they are werewolves, but they'll have learned by this time what the human society thinks of werewolves and will fear the possibilities of what will happen should any of their piers find out. They'll be insecure about wether their acting human enough, will wonder if any phrases like "lone wolf" or "wazzup dawg!" are being used as innuendos towards their lycanthropy... Basically, they'll want to distance themselves from pop culture more than their parents. Heck, if anything, they might bond with their parents even more during their teen years because their packmates will be the only ones that understand what it's like to be a werewolf.

Y'know, I was gonna comment on this topic, but you said it all perfectly. Excellet job, my man...er, wolf... er... whatever.

[ShadowFang]

I have mixed thoughts about this topic. Everyone has brought up good points. But I had to stop and think, "should the even occur before puberty?". Here is why I think not.

-Puberty is hard enough on a person both physically and mentally. A transformation before a child hits puberty would be devastating. Their bodies most likely won't be able to handle the transformation and they would end up dying.

I would just like to say that I HATE the whole Puberty=First Shift scenario.
Would children under 13 usually die? ...yeah, they probobly would. "Boo hoo..."
Llife sucks like that sometimes.

Don't get me wrong...I'd feel bad for the kid. I really would.
It just seems a bit too convinient to me that the Curse/Virus would have a safety net like that built in to it.

Long story short...Don't let kids become werewolves.

Gotta agree with you on that one. Kids shoulden't become werewolves. As for this movie, I don't think it should even be considered. If I saw a werewolf movie were some parents' 9 year old transformed into a werewolf , I think I'd have to get up, turn the TV off and just walk away and forget something like that ever happened. That would break an entire movie right there, no matter how bad a** it was.

But seriously, any dramatic change like that before a child/teenager is complete developing into an adult would most likely end up dying from the change. I had just used puberty as an example.

I mean, suppose a child is born a werewolf. What triggers the change in his later adult years? Strong emotional turmoil? Meditation?

Bottom line is... kids + wolves = very bad idea.

[Figarou]

I mean, suppose a child is born a werewolf. What triggers the change in his later adult years? Strong emotional turmoil? Meditation?

Depends. He could be in bed alseep, then wakes up out in the woods. It'll be something he can't controll at 1st.

[Terastas]

Another thing about werewolf puppies:

I agree that the shift could potentially be fatal to them. However, I think the chances of a miscarriage than a death during infancy. The reasoning is that, if the mother has lycanthropy, so will the unborn fetus -- if lycanthropy is going to be fatal, it will most likely be so during this process. By the time the baby is born, it will have already had lycanthropy for nine months (and I say again 100% of it's mortal existence) and could therefore have already adapted to the virus. As said in reference to children, they will have had the virus for their entire life, so life without it would seem more strange than life with it.

Or to sum it up, lycanthropy could be fatal to a child, but any child that survives long enough to be born will likely have already adapted to it.

And yeah, having a werewolf cub in a suspence sequence would be a downer, but I wouldn't count them out just yet either. First, just because a character has lycanthropy doesn't mean we need to see them shapeshift, and second, just because someone is in werewolf form doesn't mean it the scene needs to be a horror or suspence moment. The werewolves could always be introduced as monsters, but once the message that werewolves are people is introduced, a good way to enforce it would be to have some characters that are implied to have lycanthropy and never actually demonstrate it. Kids tend to embody innosence, so if you could create a character that doesn't also embody annoyance (like in The Sixth Sense or Godsend) that would be an effective way of enforcing it.

[Figarou]

I'm surprized you guys are making it difficult for the werewolf pup. Shouldn't evolution play a key part in this? If werewolves was a brand spakin new race, then I see your point. But what if they have been around for thousands of years? They would have devolped something that would make them shift at the proper time. A sign that lets others know the time has come. And I'm not talking about puberty. Something like extra hair under the chin. Or a certain scent he/she gives off. Things that only a werewolf would know.

Then when the shift occurs, its a bit painfull and a terrifiing experience. It shouldn't "die" from it.


Thats my 2 pennies

[NightmareHero]

Bottom line is... kids + wolves = very bad idea.

[SGrayWolf]

I feel, that there should be children with lycanthropy (that wouldn't die) but let me finish.

As far as them transforming into werewolf that early? No.

I think that the gift/curse would/should require a certain level of maturity (from the body and intellectually) before it would physically affect the individual to any extent that (we) would notice.

Perhaps requiring a certain amount of specific hormones or some other bodily aspect before they begin the actual transformations.

That way, they can be raised (somewhat normally) until they have learned more that they need to know (from family, packmates, etc) regarding it.

Just some random thoughts that came to mind....

[Xodiac]

I'm surprized you guys are making it difficult for the werewolf pup. Shouldn't evolution play a key part in this? If werewolves was a brand spakin new race, then I see your point. But what if they have been around for thousands of years? They would have devolped something that would make them shift at the proper time. A sign that lets others know the time has come. And I'm not talking about puberty. Something like extra hair under the chin. Or a certain scent he/she gives off. Things that only a werewolf would know.

Then when the shift occurs, its a bit painfull and a terrifiing experience. It shouldn't "die" from it.


Thats my 2 pennies

If you're going to look at it that way...

Then you have to remember that 99.9999 god knows how many 9s percent of the mutations out there are harmful or have no significant effect. A mutated gene that makes people CHANGE SHAPE... makes sense to ME that it'd be painful. It simply hasn't been around enough for humans to mutate AGAIN so they produce and release painkillers as they change.

[Figarou]

I'm surprized you guys are making it difficult for the werewolf pup. Shouldn't evolution play a key part in this? If werewolves was a brand spakin new race, then I see your point. But what if they have been around for thousands of years? They would have devolped something that would make them shift at the proper time. A sign that lets others know the time has come. And I'm not talking about puberty. Something like extra hair under the chin. Or a certain scent he/she gives off. Things that only a werewolf would know.

Then when the shift occurs, its a bit painfull and a terrifiing experience. It shouldn't "die" from it.


Thats my 2 pennies

If you're going to look at it that way...

Then you have to remember that 99.9999 god knows how many 9s percent of the mutations out there are harmful or have no significant effect. A mutated gene that makes people CHANGE SHAPE... makes sense to ME that it'd be painful. It simply hasn't been around enough for humans to mutate AGAIN so they produce and release painkillers as they change.

Gee, I can see werewolves taking asprin after they shift.

[Silverclaw]

I think that their should be werewolf children. I like the idea of someone who has been a werewolf their entire life. I dont think it would be a good idea for the pregent mother to shift often if at all. The changing form could hurt the unborn child.

[Nouska]

But would the child change in the womb?

[Bladewing]

That's a great idea! As an adult they'd be able to transform whenever they want, awesome!

[Scott Gardener]

First shifting at puberty is a popular concept to pair with the idea of hereditary, non-infectious lycanthropy. It's been used in both the movie Teen Wolf and the game Werewolf: the Apocalypse.

But, with infectious lycanthropy, it does create the above-mentioned conflict. What happens when a kid gets bit?

One, he could die. Heavy handed, but helpful if you're making a monster horror movie. Also helps cut down on the werewolf population.

Two, he could live. Nothing happens. Dull, and probably not going to get used by anyone.

Three, he gets lycanthropy, but doesn't shift until puberty. He or she gets to look forward to that some special time in the future, kind of like when they pulled all the girls aside for an hour or two, and they came back with flowery pamphlets and this strange look towards us guys.

I think many of us don't like the idea of kids with shapeshifting abilities because we tend to equate shifting with sexuality, and the thought of anything tying kids and sexuality together we think of as overwhelmingly creepy (except for the obvious fact that one eventually leads to the other.)
Still, the link between shifting and sexuality is not a requirement, and should not get in the way of some good story ideas.

I've myself at least twice tackled kids with shifting in short stories. One involved a child around the age of twelve in the year 2020 in my timeline, after lycanthropy is public knowledge. He gets bitten in a playground arguement and becomes caught up in the politics of whether or not werewolves should be seperated from other children and put in "special" schools--laying ground work for segregation. In the other, a werewolf mother and several of her children are encountered on board an alien spacecraft. In my novel, my lead female character has flashbacks of her childhood in a similar setting, during which she also still had shapeshifting abilities.

[hairy_dog]

Three, he gets lycanthropy, but doesn't shift until puberty. He or she gets to look forward to that some special time in the future, kind of like when they pulled all the girls aside for an hour or two, and they came back with flowery pamphlets and this strange look towards us guys.

How about, when a kid gets bit, the virus thrusts the body into a early onset puberty, allowing the change to happen.

[Vuldari]

Three, he gets lycanthropy, but doesn't shift until puberty. He or she gets to look forward to that some special time in the future, kind of like when they pulled all the girls aside for an hour or two, and they came back with flowery pamphlets and this strange look towards us guys.

How about, when a kid gets bit, the virus thrusts the body into a early onset puberty, allowing the change to happen.

That sounds really cruel for the children who may only be 6-10 (or younger?)...but facinating. I think that would be very interesting in a story for a young child to have to go through, not only their first TF, but early puberty at the same time.

Cruel and traumatic...but interesting.

[23Jarden]

If your looking at that the child cant shift until puberty that rules out shifting inside the womb. hmm a virus that activates at puberty? hmm... then it would need to be stored untill something triggered it like testosterone(SP) or estrogen.something that happens durring puberty and not until. So, if what i think is true myexamples would be false. so then what happens durring puberty that doesn't happen at all until puberty?

[Figarou]

Three, he gets lycanthropy, but doesn't shift until puberty. He or she gets to look forward to that some special time in the future, kind of like when they pulled all the girls aside for an hour or two, and they came back with flowery pamphlets and this strange look towards us guys.

How about, when a kid gets bit, the virus thrusts the body into a early onset puberty, allowing the change to happen.

You forget that the bitten needs to survive the bite. The virus could end up killing the child.


Also


*looks at Vuldari's custom title* Well, what do you know!!!