Are we ruining werewolves?

[Midnight]

I've been calm since this morning, but thanks anyway. I was on the edge of relapsing on my debate addiction.

No worries; you only got a mention because you sounded so disappointed at being left out...

[Kelpten]

And I think we've already had a similar discussion. herehttp://www.thepacksden.com/thepackboard ... sc&start=0 and herehttp://www.thepacksden.com/thepackboard ... php?t=5318

[Berserker]

I'm still not seeing the obviously widespread posts by people here obliterating/slamming/hating the "traditional" cursed/monster werewolf. I've seen a lot of people say they like both, with a preference for one or the other, but not the shut-out that Vuldari has been describing. Am I blind? Maybe someone can point me to the quotes that he's talking about?

[WerewolfKeeper3]

I'm still not seeing the obviously widespread posts by people here obliterating/slamming/hating the "traditional" cursed/monster werewolf. I've seen a lot of people say they like both, with a preference for one or the other, but not the shut-out that Vuldari has been describing. Am I blind? Maybe someone can point me to the quotes that he's talking about?

I haven't seen it either.

Anyway, maybe we should move on. Something tells me this is going to turn into a repeat of another thread or something. We all have viable opinions, but everyone seems to think theirs is the only one out there... it gets tiring after while to hear them yell at each other over a computer screen... anyway, i'm going to go look at other stuff for a while...

I just got tired of the predictability of the old werewolf stuff... why am i not surprised i got attacked for it...

[Vuldari]

-Giant scissor snip-

.....

I'm at a loss for words. This scenario you just described was, according to this Mayweather guy's incentive to fight the conspiracy, the exact same incentive that most western media flops make up and the exact same biographical structure that too many western superheroes have. Person grows up, person suffers from orphanitis, person becomes some Deadpool wannabe who can't stop rambling on about another person responsible for said orphanitis.

I do not find this "flawed and human". Rather, i find it one-dimensional.

... Snip Snip ...

But THAT is my vision of "flawed and human".

First of all, OF COURSE that story was One Dimensional. I did not put any thought into it at all. I made it up as I was typing.

... it just seemed that you were claiming that somehow being an alcoholic and having a heart condition made all the difference ... so I made up a character that was a Drug Addict and Crippled.

Is Tony Stark really so much more complex? (Or his motives any Less one Dimensional? He was kidnapped, forced to make weapons, and he used those weapons to strike back at his captors ... and then just kept doing it, because he was a brightly colored armor wearing super hero now ... with an alcohol problem and a heart condition)


But if you are going to start pointing out Lame Cliches ... do you have any idea what you created? Furry-Esque "Anti-Hyoomansit" fantasy ... the internet is FULL of this ...

*Sarcastic, over dramatic sympathetic voice*

" Oh ... the poor, poor misunderstood Woofies ... they are just so pure, and unflawed in any way, and perfect and sweet, and they just want to get along and be friends with everybody ... but those Nasty, Nasty Hyoomans are just so stupid and mean and evil ... they are always screwing everything up ... not like the pale skinned Werewolves who frolic in the flowers all day,and are soo sweet and innocent that the concept of "Fear" and "Hatred" is confusing to them.

... oh, but how nice, the Woofie found a friend from a family of Humans who are nice, and smart, and want to be their friends. Even when the human friend dies, they still take the Nice Woof Woof in as their friend and helps the Innocent, sweet, Perfect angel get back to it's tail wagging family and they live happily every after.

... at least until you write chapter two when the Nasty, Stupid Hyoomans will screw everything up again."

*/Sarcastic Voice*


Where exactly are the "Humanizing" flaws in your Werewolf character that will allow real people to relate with him? ... Oh, that's right ... Only HUMANS have flaws. Shapeshifters would be comprised of clans of people who are much more successful at finding peace and harmony with one another, and their only problems would be the evil humans who want to kill them for no good reason ... because, of course, werewolves are so much better than humans in every possible way and never do anything wrong, and the Hyoomans are just jealous.


I'm glad you are having fun writing that story, (and if you actually wrote the whole thing, and not just a rough synopsis, I'm sure you would have mentioned the political issues that the Shapeshifter clan has, and some other characters who are more mean and troublesome than your impossibly perfect and innocent angel of a werewolf character, Jung), but this is undeniably 10x as "Eye Roll" worthy as the slop I pulled out of my butt out on a whim. ... at least in the eyes of the average reader/movie goer. (Most of whom are not nearly so sympathetic to sweet, friendly, tail wagging non-human types).


The motivations of the Soldier, shallow and narrow minded as they may be, are at least something most people can relate with. ... who hasn't wanted to take revenge against someone who $%^&ed up their life?

Who (other than shy Nerds who were picked on by bullies as a child) can relate with Jung?



This is EXACTLY the kind of thing this thread was talking about. (And what I was talking about when I made a similar rant prior to leaving).

[Vuldari]

My point was that the Pack werewolf is the byproduct of years of discussion. Very little that went into the Pack werewolf was decided solely by personal opinion. Instead of just blurting out our own preferences, we held active discussions concerning what we knew about the Hollywood werewolf, trying to offer theories as to why it could be that way and making changes as we came to them.

The full moon, for example, we discussed on the psychological level, and while we did agree that the lunar affect is very real, we didn't think it was enough to justify a shift occurring every full moon by default, thus the Pack werewolf is one that can gradually learn to control his "shifting reflexes" over time.

It's therefore aggravating to see you trying to prop up the traditional werewolf with only "I like it" and "pay homage to the original" to support it. We get that you like it, but tell us something about the traditional werewolf and chances are we'll be able to forward you to the thread where we discussed and decided that it is true, may or may not be true, or definitely couldn't be true. There's no science to lycanthropy, but we did our best to discuss lycanthropy objectively.

What you are saying to me is ...

"The Pack has already decided that what you like sucks and isn't valid any more, so it aggravates ME (Terastas) that you are still trying to actually promote your unpopular opinion. You (Vuldari) are theretically (for the sake of political correctness) allowed to like whatever you want ... but are NOT allowed to ever say it, explain why you still like it again, or encourage others to enjoy it with you.

The Pack has already declared "Hollywood" werewolves (or anything resembling them) Garbage ... so I just want you to shut up now, because you have been over-ruled. The Pack has spoken."


... that is what I am hearing from you.

What you're doing, Vuldari, is very similar in nature to P-shifting: you presented your own personal opinion as fact and lashed out at anyone and everyone that questioned it.

P-Shifting??

"P shifting", (as I recall) is a term Therians use to specify when someone (assuming it is possible for the sake of argument) actually Physically changes into their "True Self", or at least changes a part of their body. The phrase is used in pair with "M Shifting" ("Mental Shift"), which is where they take on their animals behavioral characteristics, and/or feel their animal self and parts, such as claws or a tail, without it actually being there.

... what the &^%$ are you talking about?


I presented some historical facts (to the best of my knowlage) as part of my reasons for having the opinion that I do ... that is all. The historical tidbits on the evolution of the modern Werewolf story (and the observations I have made about the preferences of the general public) that I shared have no bearing on anyone else's preferences. They are (and always have been) there simply for the sake of presenting the reasoning and train of thought that lead me to having the opinion and preferences I have. Stating the fact the sky on Earth is normally Blue during the day time does not invalidate the opinion of someone who prefers the way it looks at sundown, when it is Red.


... and I have as much a right to defend Myself against anyone who challenges my opinion as you do to defend Yourself if I question yours. However, you seem to be the only one here who has not been willing to respect My opinion.


This whole discussion could have stopped at me stating my (unpopular) opinion and just leaving it at that ... but it was YOU who chose to challenge my preferences, and accuse me of supporting a mentality that was (as you seemed to be suggesting) the sole reason most recent Werewolf movies SUCKED. (essentially telling me my Opinion and preferences suck ... which is a very rude thing to do).


[That Said, I apologize to Kitetsu for being so harsh about his Werewolf character and story. I have no doubt there are a lot of people who would love to read/see that story ... I just know that most of my personal friends from work and school would laugh at me if I read that to them, and since I can only base my perception of "popular opinion" upon the reactions of people I know personally, that is the primary basis I have for how I would expect the average viewer/reader to react to such a story/character]


You don't like what I like, and hate Hollywood Werewolves with a passion that no number of rants can ever fully represent ... we all get it already.

My opinion is not going to make Tony re-write Freeborns script, or force anyone else to change their own respective opinions either. It's just my opinion.

[JoshuaMadoc]

I'm glad you are having fun writing that story, (and if you actually wrote the whole thing, and not just a rough synopsis, I'm sure you would have mentioned the political issues that the Shapeshifter clan has, and some other characters who are more mean and troublesome than your impossibly perfect and innocent angel of a werewolf character, Jung), but this is undeniably 10x as "Eye Roll" worthy as the slop I pulled out of my butt out on a whim. ... at least in the eyes of the average reader/movie goer. (Most of whom are not nearly so sympathetic to sweet, friendly, tail wagging non-human types).

- As i've said, it's a rough synopsis. I haven't continued researching the Sengoku period up to modern japanese history in his case, and i haven't even fleshed out his father yet (which would mean researching Korean history), nor his wife (which would mean researching Chinese history starting with the Three Kingdoms era), and his children. Let's not forget that i have not been able to come up with a stylized set of scenarios of Jung's people being at war with each other, mostly to prevent the mess they make be seen by humans.

- Jung is just as sinned as any other living being with a free will. He was put into a 10 day trial by his people for Nobunaga's death, and because he was still distraught over the loss, he pleaded guilty and was punished to around 100 counts of seppuku -- disemboweling his own stomach -- using a searing hot blade, which is about the same as getting 200-300 lashes with scalding hot cats-of-nine-tails. Even this upsets Jung, because he pestered them to have him obtain worse punishments, in which the council refused him after they took notice of his family's concern for his wellbeing, thus he became depressed even after the punishment was officially over. His depression then manifests into destructive frustration whenever he gets himself into fights, until he first fought and lost against Miyamoto Musashi.

- Zoanthropes in this form of reality DO share some form of malice to humans, for various human reasons, as they ARE part human themselves. But they're already aware that pure humans are usually weaker than they are, and if a certain event where humans go apes*** is significant enough to go against the Zoans' best interests, they would try and HIDE from this, because they KNOW that if they get involved, there's a chance the earth would double over and split itself in half. Those who do get involved anyway would be dealt accordingly, even if those who volunteer lose their lives along the way.

- Writing isn't exactly my forte. And english is my second language. Even after 12 years of me being exposed to the english language, my english is still s***, because whaddya know, i'm autistic, so it's no wonder i hardly write stories, or written prose for that matter. Don't bother reading it out to your friends. I'd prefer if they saw the illustrations, which i confidently KNOW i am much more capable of.

Who (other than shy Nerds who were picked on by bullies as a child) can relate with Jung?

That's something the readers answer for themselves. That's my only self-validated answer.

[Terastas]

I'm not a therian myself; everything I know about the therian community and therian terminology I learned from my time here at the Pack. The first time I heard the term "P-shifter" was in reference to the people that used to pop up all the time when the Pack was new, claiming that they were werewolves, knew werewolves, or had some other experience that made them the tell-all final authority, and then threw tantrums whenever anyone questioned their credibility.

I only said what you are doing is similar to P-shifting in that you have been careful enough to not literally state that your preferences are facts, but you did fly off the handle as soon as anyone said anything to the contrary.

That aside:

*Sarcastic, over dramatic sympathetic voice*

" Oh ... the poor, poor misunderstood Woofies ... they are just so pure, and unflawed in any way, and perfect and sweet, and they just want to get along and be friends with everybody ... but those Nasty, Nasty Hyoomans are just so stupid and mean and evil ... they are always screwing everything up ... not like the pale skinned Werewolves who frolic in the flowers all day,and are soo sweet and innocent that the concept of "Fear" and "Hatred" is confusing to them.

... oh, but how nice, the Woofie found a friend from a family of Humans who are nice, and smart, and want to be their friends. Even when the human friend dies, they still take the Nice Woof Woof in as their friend and helps the Innocent, sweet, Perfect angel get back to it's tail wagging family and they live happily every after.

... at least until you write chapter two when the Nasty, Stupid Hyoomans will screw everything up again."

*/Sarcastic Voice*

*sighs* You did it again Vuldari. You skewed and misrepresented us once again.

Maybe that's why you generate so much hostility with your opinions: Because apparently in your mind's eye, if a werewolf isn't a savage uncontrollable killing machine, it's a cute and cuddly Jim Henson creation. I've said it once and I'll say it again: Nobody here at the Pack is lobbying for hippie child-friendly werewolves.

But for some reason, you keep accusing us of such.

[Wolfzilla]

I can see what Vuldari is trying to say....even if he is being somewhat extreme about it, in fact, I agree what his core system of beliefes are, in regards to the werewolf mythos on a whole. But the fact remains, Freeborn won't revolutionize the were genera/franchise/fanbase. It might not even be widly accepted and could very well be a "cult classic". Still this:

Oh ... the poor, poor misunderstood Woofies ... they are just so pure, and unflawed in any way, and perfect and sweet, and they just want to get along and be friends with everybody ... but those Nasty, Nasty Hyoomans are just so stupid and mean and evil ... they are always screwing everything up ... not like the pale skinned Werewolves who frolic in the flowers all day,and are soo sweet and innocent that the concept of "Fear" and "Hatred" is confusing to them.....

Is a very good representation of a very common (and somewhat overused) theme....on the internet. Vuladri may be projecting these people's opinions on the matter onto the board at large, but even you must admit that certain comments on this board send certain signals that are not at first obvious in the text itself. Red Eye, for example, showed imediate disdain for the (fake) pictures of the famed "X-Files Werewolf"....Because it was snarling. I think Vuladri is blowing the matter out of proportion. I don't think there's some grand conspiracy to "destory" the werewolf as it's seen in the public conciousness today, but there is something to his statements with a grain of truth to them.

Also, Vuladri and I seem to be horror fans as well as werewolf fans, while many of you don't seem to share that interest.[/quote]

[Vuldari]

Exaggeration is a very useful tool when trying to make a point (so long as the people you are talking to realize you are doing it). I added the *Sarcastic, over dramatic sympathetic voice* and */Sarcastic Voice* to the beginning and end of that paragraph to try to identify that I was using such a type of exaggeration, but apparently that was not clear enough and I was misunderstood anyway, and I apologize.

It was really just an over dramatic way of pointing out that kitetsu neglected to indicate anywhere in his description that his character Jung was anything other than sad that he could not reveal his "True" form, and timid in the face of death ... which felt a little pathetic for a Werewolf, IMHO. It was just my way of, somewhat bluntly, letting kitetsu know that if he did not intend for his character Jung to come across that way, he should maybe rethink how he portrays him.


As for being a "Horror" Fan ... honestly, I HATE most Horror films. A bunch of Mindless Blood and Gore on the Most part, (with surprising exceptions now and then, of course).

... However, I have a great deal of respect for the use of FEAR in a good story, as one of the most honest, and universally understood emotions that can be suggested or conveyed, regardless of gender, race, religion, language, heritage or whatever.

For me, it has always been the confrontation with the emotion of FEAR (both for the people who encounter the beast, and for the person who becomes it) that most personified and made the Werewolf character stand out above the other mythological beasts and legends. When no one has any REAL reason to be afraid of a Werewolf, and the Werewolf has no REAL reason to be afraid of their "Other Side", it just feels like such a let-down ... like a Ferrari without an Engine. It LOOKS awesome, but it doesn't DO anything ... and where is the fun in that?

Where is the thrill of Driving a Fast Car to it's limits if there is no threat of a "Crash and Burn"? Even the best Drivers in the world spin out and crash now and then, no matter how much "Discipline" and "Practice" they have ... and though some won't admit it, half the fun of watching a big race is often watching to see who slips up first ... I think that is what I'm really getting at.

[Silverclaw]

I like horror movie werewolves, the good in-control were's, and every thing in between. I don't think any one type is more 'right' than the other. Werewolves are fictional creatures after all and can be almost anything anyone wants.
I do lean towards the in-control-behaves-like-a-real-wolf type. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy movies like, 'An American Werewolf in London' or 'The Howling'. I also really like 'good-guy' wws like in the books 'Wolfs Moon', 'Bitten' and Blood and Chocolate'.
Their are no werewolves in film that are in-control and non-evil as of now, which is something I'd like to see changed with movies like 'Freeborn'. Not to say I think the monster werewolves should be destroyed and forgotten about. I'd like to see more GOOD movies with both sorts (though I'd be more excited about Freeborn-type ones). Too many mediocre and just plain bad movies featuring our favorite creature

I think I'm getting off topic....
Anyways, yeah, both are cool But my personal preference(and many others here) is seeing more of the 'good' werewolves.

I suck at trying to write longer posts lol

Btw Vuldari, what sortof story do you have in mind when you talk about having an out-of-control werewolf but still being different from most horror ww movies made? Not being sarcastic or whatever, just curious.

[Terastas]

Vuldari, you are really beginning to confuse me. This whole argument essentially stemmed out of, to put it bluntly, you're desire to see a werewolf movie that is highly cliche but not in a bad way. And if that wasn't confusing enough:

As for being a "Horror" Fan ... honestly, I HATE most Horror films. A bunch of Mindless Blood and Gore on the Most part, (with surprising exceptions now and then, of course).

... However, I have a great deal of respect for the use of FEAR in a good story, as one of the most honest, and universally understood emotions that can be suggested or conveyed, regardless of gender, race, religion, language, heritage or whatever.

So now you want a movie with a lot of fear but not a horror. . . Huh?!

I will say this: There is a lot more to horror than just blood and gore. If anything, graphic violence is more an element of action flicks than horror flicks (300, Gladiator, Saving Private Ryan, etc). Horror is more often themed around either peril (the threat of graphic violence as opposed to violence in itself) or the unknown.

You just did to the entire horror genre what you did to the Pack: You intentionally misrepresented it in order to support an otherwise confusing argument. I don't know what you want, and I'm starting to think you don't know either.

[Midnight]

I think I'm getting off topic....

Yeah, but it's no more off-topic than I went a few posts back so it's cool.

But my personal preference(and many others here) is seeing more of the 'good' werewolves.

Me too, possibly because there's been so few of that breed in films to date. But that doesn't mean that a film with a "good-guy" werewolf can't also have a vicious monster and any shades of grey in-between, either. Repeating myself as usual... I'd rather see a berserk out-of-control monster done well and with respect than a good-guy werewolf done poorly as a joke.

Exaggeration is a very useful tool when trying to make a point (so long as the people you are talking to realize you are doing it).

Yeah, but it tends to be a bit hit-and-miss somewhere like the Internet... most people reading this won't ever have met you and have nothing but your posting history to base impressions off. Personally, in case of doubt I always just work on the assumption that people are being honest and straightforward with me and if they're being rhetorical it's up to them to tell me.

honestly, I HATE most Horror films. A bunch of Mindless Blood and Gore on the Most part

I'm not much of a fan of the splatter genre myself... some of the stuff I enjoy probably is, technically, horror (a surprisingly high proportion of Doctor Who, for example; and Sapphire and Steel managed to make some classy and scary little ghost stories with little more than good scripts and acting (the special effects were very much of the "You didn't even try, did you?" school...) and with inexplicable science replacing practically all the supernatural elements.

So now you want a movie with a lot of fear but not a horror. . . :Highly Confused: Huh?!

I just read that as him wanting more cerebral horror than visceral... things that go bump in the night rather than in-your-face on-screen splatter. What you see on screen may be scary... but what you don't see, your mind has to describe, and a lot of people can imagine more realistic (to them) terrors than any amount of Hollywood effects money can buy.

In fact one of the creepiest (and, for the matter, bloodiest) things I've seen lately wasn't marketed as horror at all... on a TV series, even... it involved a girl waking up on an autopsy table well after the pathologist has started work. It was a popular show so you might know of the scene...

[JoshuaMadoc]

Well, so much for explaining my troupe of polymorphing godslayers who work part time as guidance counsellors, assuming all the explanation was overlooked. Excuse me while i split both my forearms in two halves of agony and turn them into misshappen paintbrushes.

[WerewolfKeeper3]

Vuldari, you are really beginning to confuse me. This whole argument essentially stemmed out of, to put it bluntly, you're desire to see a werewolf movie that is highly cliche but not in a bad way. And if that wasn't confusing enough:

As for being a "Horror" Fan ... honestly, I HATE most Horror films. A bunch of Mindless Blood and Gore on the Most part, (with surprising exceptions now and then, of course).

... However, I have a great deal of respect for the use of FEAR in a good story, as one of the most honest, and universally understood emotions that can be suggested or conveyed, regardless of gender, race, religion, language, heritage or whatever.

So now you want a movie with a lot of fear but not a horror. . . Huh?!

I think he doesn't like the blood shed, but likes the use of fear... plus, he said most horror films, not all of them...

I would like to see a horror movie without a single death, but that was so... disturbing i wouldn't sleep for days. The Grudge was close, but they still killed people. I didn't sleep very well after that one... Ring was creepy, but the grudge... when the girl was crawling down the stairs wrapped in plastic, i was really glad it was light out. Did i mention: they didn't use a dummy for that. Kyako, literally crawled down the stairs...

Anyway, i would like to see good were's in movies too, but i don't want some whimpy little creature i could beat up, {i'm a weakling myself so i know}. And most of the time, monster and curse are words that are different for me. If we're talking a spell that's used, it's only a curse if they use it that way. Monster? Most werewolves, according to what i got from here, the entire forum, are confused, and still in pain and/or shock from shifting, and, most animals in pain will lash out at anything that they see as a threat. So, according to this, Werewolves can never be monsters, because it's instinct that drives them. True monsters are things that know what they're doing...

And Vuldari, you seem to repeating alot of things you already wrote in another thread. I cna't remember the name, but it one of the first things i responded too... Anyway, i was just bored with the predictability of the whole thing... i like the idea, but everything else was bogged down to the point it was like Lucifer dragging Constantine at the end of the movie. Impossible for those who haven't seen the movie. So, i did some editing for my story. I don't see why we have to do this again. I thought we already agreed a while ago that to each his own, {werewolf}. Can we stop this, please? We're just going back over the same old stuff. What for exactly?

[Vuldari]

Vuldari, you are really beginning to confuse me. This whole argument essentially stemmed out of, to put it bluntly, you're desire to see a werewolf movie that is highly cliche but not in a bad way. And if that wasn't confusing enough:

As for being a "Horror" Fan ... honestly, I HATE most Horror films. A bunch of Mindless Blood and Gore on the Most part, (with surprising exceptions now and then, of course).

... However, I have a great deal of respect for the use of FEAR in a good story, as one of the most honest, and universally understood emotions that can be suggested or conveyed, regardless of gender, race, religion, language, heritage or whatever.

So now you want a movie with a lot of fear but not a horror. . . Huh?!

No, I did not say I hate Scary Movies ... I said I hate most movies that have been made in the "Horror" genre ... as in, if you go to the local video store and wander down the "Horror" film isle, 75% of it is Mindless Blood splatter, (but there are still gems hidden within some of the remaining 25%).

And an old, well known story retold turning out very well, while staying true to the source material, is far from a confusing or inconceivable idea.

You just did to the entire horror genre what you did to the Pack: You intentionally misrepresented it in order to support an otherwise confusing argument. I don't know what you want, and I'm starting to think you don't know either.

No, you just misread me and jumped to false conclusions again. I don't know why you seem to always be looking for an excuse to rant at me, even when I don't deserve it. WerewolfKeeper3 read me right.

I like movies that make good use of Fear, but not movies that go overboard with blood and gore. There are so few movies officially classified under the "Horror" genre that I have personally enjoyed that I can't really call myself a fan ... but there are rare exceptions from time to time.

I don't know what I want? I want to see some stories where Werewolves are NOT "Misunderstood". ...Scenarios in which there is nothing not to understand... "When a Person transforms into a Werewolf in this story, regardless of what kind of person they are normally, they ALWAYS become DANGEROUS and UNPREDICTABLE until they change back again."

I LIKE that WildCard plot element. THAT is what I want. (at least in SOME stories)

... Monster? Most werewolves, according to what i got from here, the entire forum, are confused, and still in pain and/or shock from shifting, and, most animals in pain will lash out at anything that they see as a threat. So, according to this, Werewolves can never be monsters, because it's instinct that drives them. True monsters are things that know what they're doing...

Careful what you are doing here ... you are putting all werewolves into a single "Popular Ideal", which consequently forbids certain kinds of stories and characters, and declaring it the only accepted interpretation. That's not a very fair or open minded thing to do. ... and something that many keep telling me they are NOT doing, but I think they just don't realize that they really have been.

Just because they might be "Out of Control" when transformed, does not mean that the person does not WANT to be "Out of Control". A person who knows they loose some or all of their restraint and control when they transform, and intentionally puts themselves in a place where they will be likely cause grevious harm to others (or someone/something specific) when their transformation is eminent would certainly qualify as a "Monster". Also ... I use the term in somewhat less official context, such as how people use the word "Monstrous" to describe something that is large and imposing, but not necessarily malevolent. Regardless of whether the creatures potential for destructive or murderous behavior is intentional or not, most people would describe a creature that is very powerful and likely to cause great harm to innocent people a "Monster", (regardless of linguistic technicalities), and it is that perception and presence that is what I mean when I say "Monster".

... meaning, in THOSE kinds of stories, when you see a Werewolf (ANY werewolf, whether the person is normally your friend or not), you know you should probably run and/or hide, and have a good reason to do so (and not just have it be false, or unwarranted fear) ...

I don't think ALL Werewolf stories need to be that way, (nor would I want them to ... variety is good), but I like it when at least SOME of them are ... when the characters have to face up to an unavoidable problem of the Lycanthrope being a constant WildCard, and every Transformation is cause for everyone involved to second guess what might happen next. Coming up with creative solutions for dealing with an UnTameable wild side I think is a Scenario that is wide open for far more story conclusions or plot directions than simply, "Kill the Werewolf". Perpetually Unstable Lycanthropy is a plot element applicable to more than just one kind of story.

And Vuldari, you seem to repeating alot of things you already wrote in another thread. I can't remember the name, but it one of the first things i responded too... Anyway, i was just bored with the predictability of the whole thing... i like the idea, but everything else was bogged down to the point it was like Lucifer dragging Constantine at the end of the movie. Impossible for those who haven't seen the movie. So, i did some editing for my story. I don't see why we have to do this again. I thought we already agreed a while ago that to each his own, {werewolf}. Can we stop this, please? We're just going back over the same old stuff. What for exactly?

I'm going over it again because someone else re-started the conversation since my recent absence, and everyone else who was around during the previous conversations have just been repeating what they said before as well, so why is it any different when I do it?

... this whole THREAD is full of people repeating what they have said a hundred times before in countless other conversations.

It's just for the sake of letting those NOT present the last time around to get in on a live conversation (rather than necromancing an ancient thread), and for the rest to share any NEW insight they may have gathered since the last time, or possibly share a different opinion if it has changed in any was since before.

Besides ... I sort of like to hear people respond to what I have to say, rather than just look at the old threads and just silently think "Oh ... so that's what he said", and not give any new input.

[Terastas]

Yes, that's right Vuldari, it's all our fault.

Nobody here has faulted you for liking classic werewolf stories/movies. We personally may feel differently about them, either based on logical fallacies pointed out during the Pack's lifetime, or just as a matter of preference, but everyone here is entitled to an opinion.

But despite such, you keep complaining that we're being disrespectful and keep telling us what it is that you "really" want. I assume, therefore, that us simply respecting your opinion and leaving you to it is not enough for you.

Really, if your opinion was all you wanted, you wouldn't have even needed to take a stab at the Pack and our own interpretations as being "cute and cuddly" werewolves in the first place. You went out of your way to make this personal, and you're still a hypocrite for complaining that nobody respects your opinion after you effectively pissed all over everyone else's.

So no, it's not about us not respecting your opinion, it's about us not conforming to it.

In fact one of the creepiest (and, for the matter, bloodiest) things I've seen lately wasn't marketed as horror at all... on a TV series, even... it involved a girl waking up on an autopsy table well after the pathologist has started work. It was a popular show so you might know of the scene...

*nods* Heroes. The only show taken down by the writer's strike that I actually missed.

But I understand what you're trying to say. I always did have a much greater appreciation for psychological horrors. The thing is that the only two things everyone inherently fears are pain and death, so making a good horror movie that doesn't even mention the possibility of pain or death is. . . Well, it would be just as difficult as making a good modern werewolf movie: so difficult it hasn't been done yet.

The two best examples I could think of for a possible non-violent-yet-scary-as-hell movie were The Sixth Sense and The Eye. I didn't mention them initially, however, because both movies involved characters who could see spirits of the dead, so neither one seemed applicable. The movie Panic Room also came to mind, but while the true backbone of the movie was the characters trying to outwit and stay ahead of each other, the ultimate peril in the movie was a guy with a gun.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that violence isn't a staple of any movie genre. Slasher flicks are to horror what shoot-em-ups are to action; violence is a cheap way of trying to compensate in any genre.

[Jarden]

Well, it's not really everyone else's opinions. I myself am not a fan of the cute and cuddly werewolf. What I was just thinking was very similar to the ferrari explanation. What the point of being a bad a** if you don't get to use it. A recent film I saw on Scifi named "Never Cry Werewolf" played into the old mythology of werewolf.

(Spoiler Warning)


He killed people (rapists and prostitutes mainly) , put them in a freezer and cooked them up with the stew. He didn't have to change by moonlight and used a charm (skin of a hanged criminal) to change. He also had a demon familiar in the shape of a black dog. **Warning Ending Spoiler** And in the end, (maybe, just personal interpretation) you could see him clutching at straws trying to change everyone within arms length into a were before midnight so that they would cursed even after he died.


(End Spoilers)

How do you black stuff out? a


However I don't think that wws should be mindless killing machines. Bloodthirsty? Absolutely. I think they should be cunning and cruel, teasing their prey with shadows and wind until they're left gibbering in a corner as the big bad comes down on them. And, when it's time to eat it would be slow and caring the mighty hunter with his trophy. Just like a stalker! (kinda creepy) And there must of course be some sort of fight in there just to show the raw power that they magnificently control when they catch their prize. To show how they create internal conflict between what they want as a beast and what they want as an all round bad guy. What a masochist. And there would be parts where they lashed out, angered at the prey's resilience maybe they went out and tore a lone hobo in half or brought the poor hobo home and tortured him. It wouldn't really be gory, just messes with your head. As the ww follows Target Q around fighting himself. wait, just wait. Months may pass as he builds up his desire for Q until he can take it no longer and certainly neither can Q for W has pestered him with fleeting images and filled his dreams with monsters. As paranoia consumes Q, W closes in using great restraint so that W can enjoy Q fully. Then his wipes his mouth moves to a new city and begins again each kill more painful then the last.

Hrgh Disorganized thoughts. Oh well.

Wow, now that's a movie I spend actual money to see. I never could really get into Hostel Just seemed like they were doing it to hurt people.


here's more for Tony Stark w00t w00t
One of the few characters I could get into because, well, he's a piss poor superhero (he doesn't have that whole honor complex going on).

[Fenrir Wolf]

I don't think that we're ruining werewolves at all. I think we're doing quite the opposite. If there was only one kind of werewolf, then werewolves would only appeal to people like that kind of werewolf. By having so many diverse interpretations, there's a larger appeal to them in general. It's like Skittles. If there was only one flavor, they'd have a lot less appeal.

[Kincaid]

I think the werewolf genre has really changed over the past few years, but I don't think it's necessarily a result of the fandom. It's like anything other form of fiction, when everyone becomes comfortable with the status quo writers tend to jerk the wheel violently in the other direction and after a while THAT becomes the status quo. Personally, I find the werewolf most effective as an expression of the animal within. There needs to be both side, the rational human part and the primal animal side. What we don't seem to get enough of is the Primal side.

[Fyriewolf]

i don't think that we are ruining them. We are the next and new generaTIONS of lycanthropes.

[lycan94]

You can not ruin werewolves. The Howlings 2 -7 did that already (The werewolf in "The Freaks" was okay though)

[Fyriewolf]

that is a very good point kitetsu.

[fenrisz]

i dont think you can really ruin somethin as widly interpreted as the werewolf every one has there own vision of how it would look and act and your thought on it iss why you love it sure you can disagree with some one elses particular view of the creature and "ruin" it for them but never for yourself i personally like the feral version of the were wolf the one of blood lust and unstopable brute force but thats not to say those who prefer the more intelligent and controled version has ruined my version my view of it all they have done is make it more versatile but i guess its up to the indivdual to take it as they will and follow their own vision of it and if they feel it has been ruined that is there own fault for lack of understanding of other peoples wanting for them to match their own personalities and desires

[Berserker]

Ever notice that the vast majority of new board members here vary between "I like all kinds of werewolves equally" to "I really don't like mean werewolves and I want to see more stories where they're good guys?"

Now, as far as I know, no one got ahold of these new people and said, "come to this board! We don't like horror werewolves either!" They just showed up on their own. Even Matt Sullivan had an anecdote recently about the Twilight book release where he overheard some teenage fans talking about how they wished more werewolves were nice.

I'm thinking maybe the newer generations are looking for a different take on the werewolf story. I don't think we have anything to do with it at all. The myth -is- changing.