Are we ruining werewolves?

[Vuldari]

Just as long as these "NEW" kind of werewolf fans don't discourage others from choosing to depict Werewolves in the "OLD" way (1800-1900's style Monsters ... pre 1800's legends, myths, demons, etc.) if they happen to still prefer them that way, I have no problem with it.

Adding new versions and interpretations is good ... like adding a new flavor at the Ice-Cream shop (Banana Fudge Ripple!) ... whatever suits you ... but if they vote to take good old VANILLA off the menu because THEY don't like it any more ... there will be HELL to pay.

It may very well be true that "Fluffy the Friendly Werewolf" may be more popular now, but anyone who says NICE is "In" and MONSTERS are "Out" (as in "Out for GOOD") will have to answer to ME ...

("Vanilla" is still my favorite flavor of Ice Cream ... no Toppings ... just straight Vanilla. Likewise, a Werewolf that can unquestionably be referred to as a "Monster" is still my favorite interpretation ... even though I may also crave some Sherbet, Rocky-Road, or a Werewolf that dances and sings and chases it's tail from time to time as well.)

[Berserker]

Luckily I haven't seen a werewolf newbie with a mutually exclusive mindset.

[Terastas]

No offense Vuldari, but comparing movies to ice cream is far from fair. That's because ice cream is consumable product; you can keep making the exact same thing because the people that like it keep coming back for more of it.

VHSs/DVDs, on the other hand, are still good after they've been played once. Imagine if, after releasing Red Victoria, Anthony followed it up with Red Victoria, then Red Victoria, and after that, Red Victoria again -- that would be Hollywood being run like an ice cream shop, and it isn't the same. Unless every single copy he ever sold of it was disposable and only good once, why would anyone go out and buy a DVD that they already have?

People typically go to see movies because they want to see something they haven't seen before, and even when a movie is so good that they want to see it over and over again, they buy it once, and unless it gets lost or beaten up, chances are they'll never buy it ever again.

So no, an old Hollywood formula is not a good thing. Why? Because I already have it! Why would I want a cheap P.O.S. movie that emulates The Matrix when I already own The Matrix itself? More so, why would I need more than one copy of the exact same movie? If I want to see something I've already seen before, chances are I already have it in my case and I therefore don't need to spend money to do so.

No, the money is in things that haven't been seen, and I've yet to see a non-slasher-gory werewolf movie.

That's fine if you prefer the classic Hollywood werewolf, but then you must have at least a couple of DVDs of that already. Is there really a shortage of generic unoriginal horror movies in the market today?

You might (want to) think I'm being disrespectful of your opinion, but since you've effectively pissed all over everyone else's opinions by now, I could care less at this point. It's fine that you like the classic Hollywood werewolf, but I, for one, do not, and I'm not obligated to either. Deal with it.

[Vuldari]

Movies? ... MOVIES?? ... who said anything about Movies?

The subject of Movies didn't even cross my mind while writing that post. I was thinking more along the lines of the attitudes of non-commercial werewolf fans like the patrons of forums like this one ... fan fiction writers ... artists ... etc.

I was thinking of the question in the context of, "Are WE (not "Hollywood") ruining werewolves (for old-school werewolf fans)?"

... as in ... will the Charm and attraction of what a Werewolf used to be be diluted and ultimately destroyed by the influx of these new friendly shapeshifters (in creative fiction) that are calling themselves "Werewolves", and their new-age fans.

... and/or ... will these new trends make it less desirable for some werewolf fans to continue to be werewolf fans ... will this ruin the whole mystique for them? [Sometimes, I feel like it might be doing that for me. ... or at least might in the near future if fan-opinion trends continue as they are.]

Honestly, I don't even bother commenting on "Silver Screen" depictions of the creatures in these kinds of discussions. Most directors are idiots, and will make stupid movies regardless of what fans of the genre ask for, because as long as they put enough "Flash" and "Pizazz" into their film previews, people (idiots) will pay to see them ... by the hoards.

That was never the subject of this discussion. The question is, "Are WE ruining Werewolves?" ... not, "Are THEY ruining werewolves?"

[Terastas]

The subject of Movies didn't even cross my mind while writing that post.

Bull.

I was thinking more along the lines of the attitudes of non-commercial werewolf fans like the patrons of forums like this one ... fan fiction writers ... artists ... etc.

I was thinking of the question in the context of, "Are WE (not "Hollywood") ruining werewolves (for old-school werewolf fans)?"

... as in ... will the Charm and attraction of what a Werewolf used to be be diluted and ultimately destroyed by the influx of these new friendly shapeshifters (in creative fiction) that are calling themselves "Werewolves", and their new-age fans.

Then the answer is a resounding no, because as I've said plenty of times before, the old-school werewolf is still there in old-school Hollywood. Maybe all of those wannabe-director dullards that never had an original thought in their lives will copy Freeborn, Camp Lycanthrope etc., but so what, their movies will be crap no matter what. Unless you're an antisocial emo that only expresses an interest in werewolves because they're so unappreciated (the kind of people that write in their livejournals that humanity sucks and they wish they could just slaughter everyone, then sit in their rooms listening to Evanescense crying that nobody loves them), a rise in interest and/or a new depiction of the werewolf image is not going to change anything for fans of the classic werewolf.

If you can survive Fang Face, you can survive anything anyone at the Pack could ever dream up.

Seriously Vuldari, cut the crap. We get it, you like the classic werewolves, but nowhere in the Pack terms of conduct or FAQ does it say we are obligated to support the classic werewolf and oppose alternatives. I know I said it before, but I'll say it again since your memory seems highly selective: If everyone here thought the classic werewolf was proper and in no need of change, not only would you and I not be having this discussion, the entire Pack as we know it would never have come into existence.

I'll give you this though: You've got guts. There aren't many people out there that would have the nads to piss all over the opinions of every single person that's ever registered at a forum and then complain nobody is respecting their own opinion, but you've done exactly that time and time again.

I have given a name to my pain, and it is Vuldari.

[Vuldari]

... the point is ... for ME I think maybe we are.

And your post, Terastas, is a perfect example of just how that is happening.


Is that really the reaction a Werewolf FAN is going to get every time they DARE to express their opinion, if they happen to be a "Monster" Werewolf fan?


*Paraprhased*

" ... I'm going to say that you are allowed to like whatever you want because forum etiquette says that I have to ...

... but you stink, your opinion sucks, everyone hates you, and I'm going to go out of my way to talk about all of the reasons I HATE everything you like, and why my preferences are the only ones that are good ... every time you try to even SUGGEST that anyone else might actually enjoy the same things you do ...

... but I'm going to deny that I am discouraging people from having opinions that differ from my own or the popular majority, the next time you suggest that I have been. ... like I always do ... because I think you suck, and I never get tired of making life HELL for you here.

... and YES ... though YOU may be thinking about nothing but FILMS when talking about Werewolves on this forum, I stopped caring about Werewolf Movies a long time ago.

Freeborn looks like it is never going to happen at this point ... Camp Lycanthrope is just a big question mark (and Matt's story, though amusing, seems very silly to me, and clearly not a serious entry into the genre) ... and a re-make of "The Wolfman", is already underway and slated for release next year ... so whether I like it or not, that's the last version of that I'm going to see for a while. (I didn't really care for the first two "Underworld" films, so I have little interest in the third as well ... I'll rent it on DVD, maybe ... if it gets decent reviews)

I'm not talking about films ... or books ... or long forgotten cartoon shows ... I'm talking about FANS ... and the environment of being a Werewolf fan ... and thanks to people like you ... being a "Monster Mystique" fan really SUCKS right now.

It is true enough that in the early days of this forum, I personally contributed to creating the "Friendly" werewolf model that is the favor of the Popular majority right now ... but since then I have looked back and found that I personally am not as exited by our NEW werewolves as I was by the scary monster stories I grew up with.


I'm just a fan trying to be a fan ... but apparently, trying to be a "Monster Mystique" fan HERE in "thepacksden" will mean that I will be roasted on a pike every time I express my opinion.

... thanks for striving to make this forum completely biased and prejudiced against "Monster" fans Terastas ... that is very open minded, accepting and understanding of you, and makes this a friendlier and more inviting place for Werewolf fans to stay and converse with other werewolf fans ... */sarcasm*



No where and never have I been rallying to discourage people from inventing alternatives, and promoting them ...

... however, YES, I really think THE PACK SHOULD support Old-School Werewolves ... or at the very least, if the person in question does not like them personally, passively accept the other persons opinion in the interest of mutual enjoyment in the fan-base and in the forum.

Your responses to my opinion are NEVER passive.


I say my opinion ... more reasonable people say "Whatever ... I'm not a fan myself, but I welcome you anyway fellow werewolf fan".

But Terastas says " ... SCUM!!!! ... I HATE YOU ... GO AWAY ... YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE ... Conform or be FLAMED to death ... by ME!!!!"


... for goodness sake Terastas ... give it a rest, and let me be myself.

[RedEye]

Remember, Vuldari; Tarastas is just as opinionated as the rest of us. He just gives his opinion, pungent or mild, as he decides to on that particular day.

Nobody is right all the time. Nobody is wrong all the time either.

Let's be less slamtastic please. I can still lock things that get out of bounds. That would be a pity with as old a thread as this is.

And remember, at the end of the day, it's just words on a screen...

[Terastas]

Oh, so now I'm the big bad tiger that's been pissing all over everyone else for having different opinions? I don't object to you liking the classic werewolf Vuldari, I object to lashing out at the Pack at large because we don't share that opinion. It's fine that you like classic werewolves, but don't throw a tantrum and scream that I/we are trying to kill werewolves just because we don't like the classic or also like alternatives.

That's not the reaction a werewolf fan will get, but it is the reaction a self-absorbed, self-pitying antisocial angsty emo werewolf fan is going to always think they're getting.

Just because I personally don't like the classic werewolf doesn't mean I'm opposed to anyone else that appreciates it. It's fine that you like it, but don't tell me/us that we're trying to "ruin werewolves" by having thoughts that go any other way.

All I ever wanted, Vuldari, was for you to show a little bit of the respect that you always complain you are never being given. Now, over a year later, the story hasn't changed: you're still painting yourself as some poor martyr to the classic werewolf when all we really want is for this damn soap opera to come off the air.

I'm ashamed it took over a year for me to realize this, but I'm absolutely convinced of it now: It was never about the classic werewolf. It was just an emo therian crying for attention.

No need to lock this thread RedEye, because I'm absolutely done with this. I'm convinced now that nothing short of kissing Vuldari's butt and yessing him to death is going to stop this damn drama fest. Feel free to delete this post if you want though; he's just going to let it all go in one ear and out the other anyway.

[JoshuaMadoc]

I'm absolutely done with this.

You still have me to deal with...

[Defensorem Lupus]

Wow, guys, I thought we were suppose to be friends and family here.

In my opinion, it does not matter if "we are ruining werewolves" because everything changes, stays the same to some extent, or evolves every generation or so. Nothing stays consistent for ever and everything is relative.

[chubhound]

After some serious (ok...not THAT serious) pondering, I have to stick with my original assertion that we are NOT ruining werewolves. "Why?" you may ask....well, uhhhh, crap, now I have to do actual thinking. First off, the "old school" style of a monstrous and out of control werewolf just simply is not going away. EVER. Suggesting the possibility that we (meaning, I assume, "The Pack") are ruining werewolves for the "old school" werewolf fans is kind of like saying that the new Hybrid cars like the Prius or whatever are ruining automobiles for the classic car collecters. Uhhhhh, nope, that ain't happening. Werewolves are pretty much FIRMLY entrenched into the horror genre, and there's nothing that can take them out of that. Granted, there are tons....TONS of other genres that a werewolf can fit into (action, sci-fi, fantasy, mystery, heck....even romance or comedy), but for the average person on the street, if you were to ask them what pops to mind when you say the word "werewolf", it's probably going to be the big nasty nightstalking virgin devouring monster. Or to look at it another way...let's start with "horror fans" (since, DUH, werewolves are as associated with horror as french fries are with bad cholesterol). "Horror", being everything under the sun from hockey mask wearing, machete wielding killers, to chest bursting, acid bleeding aliens, to brain eating zombies, to Jigsaw and all those "torture" guys...so on and so forth. Within that group, there's a smaller group: "Monster fans". That covers the gamut from the Kathoga in "The Relic", to the alien from "Aliens", to the big octopus monster in "Deep Rising", etc.... Now, within that group, there's an even smaller group, "Werewolf fans", and in THAT group there's....us. An even smaller group. So we're what? A minority within a minority within a minority? You really think we're gonna be doing any kind of damage to the image of a monster that's been around in the public consciousness for a few dozen centuries? I kinda doubt it.

[Defensorem Lupus]

Good show chubhound. I like the way you put that together. I have to agree with you on that.

[Berserker]

I would disagree with chubhound on a key point, which is that we're part of a minority of monster fans, and by extension part of a minority of horror fans. For many of us, an interest in werewolves came from lore and mythology (or some other source) and originally had very little to do with horror, if at all.

My point from earlier in the thread is that it does seem that as time goes on, the average person on the street will not necessarily think of something incredibly negative when they hear "werewolf." My thread "the world goes werewolf crazy" examines this. An explosion of changing perceptions, not just online but in entertainment media, is starting to affect the werewolf myth. I think The Pack is part of this change in parallel, rather than an instigator of it.

Travel back 200--no, how about 50, maybe even 25--years and mention "vampire" or "dragon" to an average person on the street. Or hey, ask them about plain old normal wolves. The overall reaction will be one of disgust at a "big nasty nightstalking virgin devouring monster." Now what. I can turn to someone random and ask them what they think about vampires, and I'll get reactions ranging from "cool and mysterious" to "sexy." Ask the girl next to me about dragons and she'll tell me they're "pretty." And don't get me started on wolves. Wolves have been so demystified that not even scientists who should know better think they're dangerous. Where have all the monsters gone?

Mark my words, the same thing will happen with the werewolf.

[chubhound]

Point taken Berserker. I happened to find out about werewolves from movies & such at a rather young age and it wasn't until LATER that I discovered "Oh, wow....this wasn't just a monster that was made up for movies." And so I tend to have a default response of latching werewolves into movies first. Now, my question is, regarding the 2 other monsters you mentioned (Vampires & Dragons), do you think that they've been ruined in any way by their popularity? I don't mean that in a snippy sarcastic way, I'm just wondering. The whole "de-mystification" thing just tends to come about naturally from constant exposure to something. I have to wonder (and ask y'all), is there a way to keep the werewolves seen as "scary & mysterious" other than to just NOT write about them?

[Berserker]

Actually no, I don't think vampires and dragons have been ruined, considering there are still many wonderful stories about them, monster and hero alike. Maybe cheapened in some ways. Definitely demystified.

There are many other monsters too, like witches, aliens, demons, etc. that have gotten the same treatment.

People like stories where monsters turn out to be good guys. It gives them a tingly feeling. (Good guys can be scary and mysterious anyway.) Maybe it has to do with post-modernism and that whole thing about returning to a pre-absolutist mindset.

I just think about it this way. Werewolf fans are the ones who are going to "ruin" werewolves. But wait... if the fans are getting what they want, then how is this bad? Ask that question and it boils down to fan versus fan. "We both love werewolves but mine is the right one." Which is pretty silly in my opinion.

[chubhound]

Berserker.....I think you just nailed it. Plus, I don't believe that it HAS to be an "either/or" thing with werewolves. I know noone's actually come out & said flat out "werewolves can ONLY be portrayed as evil monsters, or they can ONLY be portrayed as noble heroic furry superheroes", but....that vibe has kinda leaked out some, albeit unintentionally I'm sure. I guess it just comes down to "what kind of werewolf does the author/director/whatever need?" Do you need a scary mysterious evil villainous werewolf? Fine.....then use one. Do you need a noble heroic furry superhero? Terrific!! Use one of those. Need a werewolf that's in a morally grey area to be an Batman/Wolverine/Dirty Harry-esque antihero? Then by all means, go for it!! Want to go totally old-school & use a werewolf that shows how much time you've spent in the library over the years memorizing every teeny tiny bit of werewolf lore & mythology? Hey...power to ya!! They're all viable portrayals of a werewolf and none of then negate each other. I mean...did all those ninja flicks in the 80's ruin ninjutsu? Uhhh, wait.....never mind, don't answer that.

[Defensorem Lupus]

I cannot agree with you guys any more. You both have good points that I like. I just have one thing to add though, the internet most defiantly had an impact, not only on how people perceive monsters, but also on everything else. Think about it.

[Terastas]

It's not like what Freeborn is doing would be anything new. New for werewolves, yes, but the whole "monster in a different light" approach is hardly new. Even zombies have their own tragic hero (Dirge from Xombie).

And besides, it's not like any works of fiction featuring good versions of a common monster have changed anything about the standard. Dragonheart didn't do anything to stop Reign in Fire from coming out. Shrek didn't do anything to soften the ogres from Lord of the Rings. And of course, Cloverfield came on the tails of countless cheesy, badly-dubbed Godzilla movies. The only reason werewolves haven't undergone a similar revision yet, I'm convinced, is because werewolves are also overdue for a physical revision; Hollywood doesn't know how to make a werewolf that is convincing by modern day standards.

Personally, in my mind's eye, trying to discourage anyone from ever expanding on the classic werewolf would be killing werewolves. We're not doing a disservice to werewolves, rather just adding a new take on them.

[Fyriewolf]

Hey if somebody thinks that we are ruining werewolves, then I say let them speak their minds. Isn't the First Amendment the Freedom of Speech where one person or a unified group can speak their minds as long as it does not disturb the peace of the environment In my opinion, I think that there are some people who are in fact completely ruining werewolves. Werewolves should be acting with/as whoever they choose to be acting with/as in their own lives and privacy.

[Terastas]

Hey if somebody thinks that we are ruining werewolves, then I say let them speak their minds. Isn't the First Amendment the Freedom of Speech where one person or a unified group can speak their minds as long as it does not disturb the peace of the environment In my opinion, I think that there are some people who are in fact completely ruining werewolves. Werewolves should be acting with/as whoever they choose to be acting with/as in their own lives and privacy.

No offense Fyrie, but was this thread really worth digging up and dusting off just to ad that to it?

[Gevaudan]

I remember this thread. Good times, good times...

[Fyriewolf]

No-offense taken Terastas. I just realized that this was something really worth digging

[RedEye]

Since we urge people to do just that instead of starting another thread on the same subject, I must say "Kudos, Fyriewolf; you did the right thing!"

Now, in re; Ruining Werewolves: The new Wolfman movie would indicate we aren't even being noticed. Hollowwood is doing remakes that are not just bad; they're MajorMotionPicture bad.
There is not one new thing in that movie; the original horror potboiler with Lon Chaney Jr. was ten time better without the CG or Color.
Antonio Banderas still can't act, either.

Someday, there will be a New Werewolf Movie made; I has faith!

[Wingman]

What does Antonio Banderas have to do with the Wolfman? Are you thinking of Benicio Del Toro? Also, yeah, it was a major dissappointment. I suppose that explains how there were maybe four other people in the theater when I went, even though it was an excellent timeslot.

Personally I don't think that "we" have really made a single lick of difference to the general perception of werewolves, probably largely because the only people we're interacting with are eachother.

[Fyriewolf]

thanks redeye. but I think tha Anthony Hopkins (hannibal lector) should have played the wolfman.