Obama Won!

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RedEye
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by RedEye »

Okay, kids; now let the old-timer say a few things. Remember, I've voted for Presidents that are dead now, of old age. :cry:
First, Obama. He seems a decent enough fellow, but I really DON'T LIKE the people he owes favors to. That is the single thing that has tripped up many, many past Presidents; Debts. He will pay them, never fear; he has to if he wants to get re-elected.
Like I said: some of the people who helped put him in office are really far-left dillitante Social Experimenters who will happily let HIM take the fallout of what doesn't work. 8)
That was Mc Caine's problem, too; only his "good buddies" were really dangerous to the nation. :x

There is something you really ought to consider here: the President can veto legislation; but that's about it when it comes to Laws. So, his promises? He'll need "friends" in Congress to get anything done, and even then; only after he's paid down some of the Political Debts he's incurred in gaining the Oval Office.
That bites. Nasty-bad. :x
He won because he out spent Mc Caine almost three-to-one; and all that money came with attachments. Now we get to see how he does the job he's been elected to. :?
You think you're griping now? Give the man a YEAR to either become a Hero or a Zero; right now he's neither. He's Potential, and that's about it. He will actualize on January 20, 2009, when he's sworn in. :o

Opinions: Obama cheated the Campaign Spending Limits law by using money-raising methods that the law didn't consider when it was passed. Is he going to keep trying to "slip around" other limits? Only time will tell. We really don't need a President that is "clever" in that way; that's dangerous to the whole system of checks and balances we depend on for some semblance of Government in this country. ??

What we need is a Grant system: every Qualified Presidential Candidate gets $100 million as a Grant for his/her Campaign; and NO fund-raising allowed. That way we see who can do the most with the same amount; a good pre-test for any Executive in my opinion.
It also reduces the "debts" carried into office by the one who is elected. :D

We also need to reclaim our political parties from the elites who currently run them...or start a Centerist/Pragmatist party to balance things. Right now, both parties are in the hands of "True Believers" rather than in the hands of the People who will be governed. Is it too much to ask for a Party that listens and acts, rather than theorizes and enacts?
I can tell you, it didn't used to be this way. Once, Democrats and Republicans were pretty much alike with differing but not exclusive political ideas on what needed to be done. They agreed on what was needed, and differed on how that need was addressed.
Now, they don't agree on anything. This is bad: our motto...
E Pluribus Unum (From the many, one) really meant something. Now its more "Unum Dictum ad Populum" (One Word, to the People). In short, "do what you're told."
Perhaps a return to less separated politics would be in order here. We'll see.
I will keep my faith in the Gods, AND I'll keep my powder dry.
But then, I've been around a bit...
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by MattSullivan »

How about.....................

.......We WAIT to see what Obama does before we tear him apart? Mmm?

:lol:
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Midnight »

RedEye wrote:What we need is a Grant system: every Qualified Presidential Candidate gets $100 million as a Grant for his/her Campaign; and NO fund-raising allowed.
I've seen that suggested a few times over here (the mechanics would be quite different - here a party or group of parties with a majority in confidence and supply in Parliament elects a Prime Minister and Cabinet out of its number) and there are two objections that are always raised: (1) "taxpayer funding of political parties IS BAD!" and (2) "It's my money and I can spend it on whatever darned candidate I choose!". Although the second has always been restricted during my lifetime, anyway (despite many and varied attempts to circumvent it).
RedEye wrote:We also need to reclaim our political parties from the elites who currently run them...or start a Centerist/Pragmatist party to balance things.
The problem here is your electoral system. While you've got two parties in an all-or-nothing game all the centrists can do is take votes off one or more of them. I don't know when America had its last president who wasn't a Republican or a Democrat, but it wouldn't have been during your lifetime, let alone my own.

New Zealand's had some examples in recent years of one or more centrist "third parties" holding the balance of power and moderating somewhat the extremes of the major parties. There's a lot of nonsense talked about third parties "wagging the dog" with their demands. What actually happens, in practice, is that any extremist "third party" has little or no say in politics (e.g. the business-friendly ACT and the environment-friendly Greens don't have much clout as they simply can't credibly form a government with their opponents' natural coalition partners); and that, for the price of moderating some of their policies or of a feel-good exercise such as the Families Commission, a government of either colour can get an agreement on confidence and supply with a third party. New Zealand's had its electoral system for the past five elections (including today's), and all governments thus formed, except for the first one (in which the centre party involved broke apart into factions a year or so into the government), were stable and successful. (Even the first, failed coalition managed to run its full term, although the faction which stayed with what had become a very unpopular administration was annihilated at the election at the end of its term).
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Baphnedia »

Baphnedia's semi-off-topic reply:

We dedicate three pages to stating the obvious?
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Zombie »

Wait, what? $250,000 is not rich? I want to know what you are smoking.

A big fattie of reality, thats what.
No, 250,000 is NOT rich, especially if you are running a small buisiness. You havent thought of facilities, utililities, human resources, inventory, storage etc etc. You can easily gross over 1 million, and spend 3/4 (or more, if you are just starting up) of that on just running the place.

The vast majority of small buisinesses all gross well over 250K, so they are going to be hit the worst.

Healthcare is a whole other can o' worms. Anyone interested in what a government-run heath care system looks like, just go down to your local VA hospital.




Oh and Zombie, you really do not know what you are talking about.[/quote]

Hows that now? Because I know what it takes to run a small buisiness? My very small business will make absolutely squat, and Ill have to fold if any taxes increase, simply because of the price of expenses.


Im not surprized the are so many Ozombies out there. Young people today dont want to work, and expect everything to be handed to them for doing nothing. Try working 18 hours a day, everyday for quite a few years. Once you do that, and get yourself into a position to improve your circumstances, see how you feel about someone taking it away to give it to someone who is too damn lazy to actually get off their a** to do it themselves. Im sure you will be singing quite a different tune.

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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Baphnedia »

It really depends on the business and how much overhead you're willing to risk. The businesses I run have no facilities requirements, but do have some heady equipment costs and one of them demands that I trim down to not be obese (according to the body mass index). I still have about 30lbs to go, but it's quite a stretch.

It doesn't matter what type of business you're in. Risks come from a variety of areas. One of them is government. It's not Obama's fault that taxes will increase. Also, the tax increase he proposed would not effect business entities, if the business entity is separate from the owner. If it is a sole-propietorship, then yes, it's going to pinch you. However, if the tax rate is what will cause a business to fold or not, unless it's the final straw in a long line of straws sucking away your resources, shouldn't cause you to fold, as a business. Another way the government can put you out of business is if you have to pay huge penalties to the EPA or other places, or changes in regulation.

Let's say you sell wolf pelts and wolves go on the endangered species list. Changes like that can make a business downright illegal, and very hard to operate (if the owner chooses to operate in spite of the law). When you go into business, you assume the risk (and it's a very high risk) when working for yourself. Buck up or buck out.
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by MattSullivan »

You can say what you want about Obama, but at least he APPEARS to be preparing himself for the job ahead. He APPEARS to be taking this job seriously. He's done more, said more, and has laid out a clearer plan of action in the few days since his election than George Bush did ( and we all know about Bush's terrible work ethic )

Again, the effect of Obama as president remains to be seen. He knows he has a terrible mess to clean up, not to mention the simple fact that he knows everyone will be watching EVERYTHING he does. There are enemies out there waiting to pounce, just as in the days when Clinton was president.
I think in order for things to get better, we DO have to have some radical changes, and that's what Obama promised. We have gone from a first world power to teetering on the brink of third-world status. SOME drastic action must be taken if we want to rebuild our infrastructure, return manufacturing jobs to America, and restore the ability of the middle class to actually SAVE SOME MONEY.

I for one, will be watching with great interest.
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Anubis »

Okay, I spoke too soon when I thought people's opinion was starting to change about me.

Thank you outwarddoodles for seeing that, but before I respond to your arguements take a good look at your selves and your posts. I was was hurt by those comments espesially by Silent Hunter which seemed like 2/3 were valid, 1/3 trashing me, 100% biased against me. It wasn't just him, Terastas and MoonKit I expected better from you two.

I apologised for my ealier comment, I thought I could make it right by doing so and calmly explain why the way I feel.

Nope, I guess it didn't work.

I' am so sick and tired of the way I'm being treated here! You may deny it all you want, but it is true most of you have something against me. Do know why I haven't been as active as I was before? WELL YOU GOT YOU AWNSER!! I'm not the only one that notices it. Shadow wulf, and miquel have seen it.

I'm sorry for the way I acted when I first joined, I'm sorry for hurting people. No matter how much I say sorry, you people wont accept it!! You guys wont just forgive and forget.


I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!!I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!!I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!!I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!! I'M SORRY!!!

How many times do I have to say it, before you forgive me!!!

:cry: I'M SORRY!!! :cry:
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Baphnedia »

There are all sorts of ways to take things - some can take everything in with an inhuman degree of separation. Others don't. Advantages and disadvantages go both ways - and Anubis' problem isn't one I see only from one perspective.

The danger with text, is what you say is taken permanently - especially if it is copied and kept close to the heart of the recipient. Sometimes the message reaches the intended recipient, more often, it also reaches a whole bunch of unintended members (and non-members).

For my part, Anubis, you haven't rubbed me the wrong way, or if you have, it's of such a distant memory that today it's inconsequential.
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Midnight »

Anubis: if you talk patent bullshit I'm going to call you on it. It's nothing to do with liking you or not liking you. For the record I don't see anything wrong with you that a bit of growing the hell up won't cure. I suggest you carefully read Matt's comments, because he's probably been the most sensible and level-headed commentator so far.
Zombie wrote:No, 250,000 is NOT rich, especially if you are running a small buisiness. You havent thought of facilities, utililities, human resources, inventory, storage etc etc. You can easily gross over 1 million, and spend 3/4 (or more, if you are just starting up) of that on just running the place.

The vast majority of small buisinesses all gross well over 250K, so they are going to be hit the worst.
Where the hell are you living that businesses are taxed on their turnover and not on their profit? You might want to think about shifting somewhere else if that is the case.
Zombie wrote:Healthcare is a whole other can o' worms. Anyone interested in what a government-run heath care system looks like, just go down to your local VA hospital.
Or you could visit just about anywhere else in the OECD where there is a public health service that's more efficient than the American system.
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Silent Hunter »

Wait, what? $250,000 is not rich? I want to know what you are smoking.
Its not poor now is it, its well off.
No, 250,000 is NOT rich, especially if you are running a small buisiness. You havent thought of facilities, utililities, human resources, inventory, storage etc etc. You can easily gross over 1 million, and spend 3/4 (or more, if you are just starting up) of that on just running the place.
I do not know of a lot of small buissnesses that gross that much. Prove that claim. Also even if they did you still do not know the rate of that tax so you can't really judge.
The vast majority of small buisinesses all gross well over 250K, so they are going to be hit the worst.
Again, prove it and prove that the tax will be crippling. Of course a universal healthcare system first time would be bloody flawed. Using that as a reason would be mad. Imagine if an artist was like art, he would get little done. We make flaws and we learn from them and change. Its no reason not to change.
Hows that now? Because I know what it takes to run a small buisiness? My very small business will make absolutely squat, and Ill have to fold if any taxes increase, simply because of the price of expenses.
You missed that taxing inviduals bit as well as that a smal buissness hardly makes anything. So is $250,000 is squat?
Im not surprized the are so many Ozombies out there.
Is that meant to be clever?
Young people today dont want to work, and expect everything to be handed to them for doing nothing. Try working 18 hours a day
Blah blah blah, in my day etc. You know how stupid that sounds when in relation to what is being argued Zombie? Obama is giving a tax BREAK on those earning under 250k for middle and low income. This is not a benefit handout for slackers at all. Its for those in poor jobs or having to pay high bills to get a little breathing space.

Oh and if its about healthcare you are relating to then its basically giving those who are not insured have an easier time getting insured. Finally if its about Universal Healthcare then its a matter of giving everyone a chance for healthcare.

So, giving people something for nothing?
see how you feel about someone taking it away to give it to someone who is too damn lazy to actually get off their a** to do it themselves. Im sure you will be singing quite a different tune.
Again see above. You are just ranting now.

I am not trying to be nasty but really your arguments are really flawed.
I was was hurt by those comments espesially by Silent Hunter which seemed like 2/3 were valid, 1/3 trashing me, 100% biased against me.
No offence to yourself but I found your arguments very offensive in some areas. I was not meant to be biased against you but against your arguments which are in turn very biased themselves.

You are forgiven. :D
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Terastas »

Baphnedia wrote:The danger with text, is what you say is taken permanently - especially if it is copied and kept close to the heart of the recipient. Sometimes the message reaches the intended recipient, more often, it also reaches a whole bunch of unintended members (and non-members).
The reason statements have more weight than some people think they should here is because they are all text. I could forgive Anubis's comments, both the one I blocked his posts for and all the ones that had rubbed me the wrong way before that, if we had been talking face to face and he just blurted it out. I understand that we frequently say things we don't mean to and sometimes exaggerate in the peak of the moment.

Text, however, is not so sudden. Sometimes I write my posts as if they were being blurted out, but that's just my occasional style; a technique I employ from time to time so my posts don't start to look like soulless dribble like a profondus maximus talking out of his arse. I personally do not rush my posts out without thinking about the content in them. I type it, I edit as I go, I read it back to myself, edit it again, preview it, then post it and reread it, and sometimes I click edit and make even more changes.

I admit I get pushed to my breaking point by some of the things that happen on this board. Know what I do about it? I blow off steam, orally, by myself. I curse to myself, get up and pace, get up and do air guitar to the Theme of Laura. . . You get the idea. One way or another, no matter how long it takes, I always try to calm down before I even begin to start typing, if I even bother to respond at all. That's the beauty of a text-based environment: nobody can interrupt you, filibuster or do anything else to try to stop you from getting your comments through, and the conversation doesn't have an expiration date so you can take all the time you need to make sure you say what you mean to say.

The issue, therefore, is not whether or not Anubis actually wishes Obama assassinated, but the fact that he typed it and signed his name to it. I could have given him the benefit of a doubt if he'd just said it -- I could even have given him the benefit of a doubt if he'd written that at the end of a post. However, that was not the case. The amount of time it took Anubis to finish his post and click "Submit" should have been enough time for him to consider whether or not he wanted to put something like that on the web for all to see with his name credited to it, and if he didn't consider it, he should have.

The other beautiful thing about text is that you can take all the time you need to edit your statements into B.S. and pass yourself off as something you're not. That said, I see no reason to believe any of his "I didn't mean it" posts. That's just damage control.

Of course, there's something else beautiful about a text-based environment: the "ignore" feature. So regardless of whether Anubis posted out of malice or stupidity, I've got his posts on block now, and if he thinks I'm being unfair and picking on him, I encourage him to block mine as well.
I'm Terastas, and I approve this message. :wink:
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by outwarddoodles »

Terestas:

If you sat and thought about everything you typed, then why did you post this:
If you're selfish and/or evil enough to wish someone assassinated over trivial reasons, and also dumb enough to express that desire openly, you won't be missed. Even I never wished to see Bush assassinated (I can't believe he wasn't, but I never wished he would be).

Seriously Anubis, you've written a lot of things on this message board that made me wonder if your brain knew what your fingers were typing, but out of respect for you and the Pack, I was willing to either try to be rational or look the other way altogether. That, however, is way too far over the line for me.

So now comes the part where I tell Anubis to go f--k himself and never speak to him again. I'm not going to bother trying to argue like I did with Vuldari and Wselfwulf; he's going straight to my foe list for that one.
Were you so 'cool-headed' as you claimed to be, you would have just blocked Anubis and moved on before putting him down like that. Not only did you block him, you insulted him, and then gave him no chance to redeem himself. Talk about the heat of the moment. I don't agree with Anubis, but I didn't tell him to go 'f--k himself' either.

POSTS LIKE THAT are the reason why Anubis had to resort to typing a text block of apologies. Anubis is passionate, and so are you. That's not a terrible quality for someone to have, especially when Anubis is willing to admit he acted immature.
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Silent Hunter »

Though I think Anubis was asking for trouble with his post, I know what its like to type stuff like that not thinking on what may happen then running back begging when something does happen. It usually comes when you take a look back at what you have done and think "Oh s*** no". Not eveyone takes time to think their posts though and many are wrapped up in anger or a mindset that they are right. Now I attacked Anubis with such aggression due to his arguments and what he was implying. I do not Anubis, just his views which are flawed to me. I tend to be very raw anyway. I am going to speak out though and say I am against blocking users just beucase they upset you. Its stupid imo. How will people solve their differences if they can not even talk to each other? How does a community work if you just block someone if they have a paddy one day? Its amazingly stupid to do so and Anubis should of been warned and had his "kill Obama" sentence removed anyway. In my mind i would do what some forums do and rip out the ignore feature all together. Its just an easy way for members to go "LALALLAAL NOT LISTENING!" to what could be a valid point or an apolagy. I am saying that Anubis's kill Obama comment should of warrented a warning yet apart from that it was, though flawed to me, perfectly in line with the rules.
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Carrying on like emotional children.
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Which is a hell of a way to conduct a discussion."
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Terastas »

I never said I was cool-headed Outward. Just the opposite: I acknowledged my explosive tendency. I just said I don't post while peaking.

So yes, I meant what I said. Just because I'm a die-hard liberal doesn't mean I'm a lovey-dovey hypersensitive weenie that won't say anything if there's a possibility anyone in the world will take offense to it.

I know that wasn't nice, but then again, neither is wishing someone murdered. Just because I proofread my posts doesn't mean I'll keep my mouth shut if I think someone crossed the line.
And I'll let you in on a little secret: I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that will. :wink:
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Lupin »

RedEye wrote:Okay, kids; now let the old-timer say a few things. Remember, I've voted for Presidents that are dead now, of old age. :cry:
First, Obama. He seems a decent enough fellow, but I really DON'T LIKE the people he owes favors to. That is the single thing that has tripped up many, many past Presidents; Debts. He will pay them, never fear; he has to if he wants to get re-elected.
Looking at the breakdown of his campaign contributions, I don't really see that. According to the FEC about half ($280M) of his financing came from people who donated $200 or less. Meanwhile, the top contributor to his campaign, the University of California, only contributed $909,283. That discrepancy significantly reduces the leverage of any single person or group.
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by vrikasatma »

Midnight wrote:
RedEye wrote:What we need is a Grant system: every Qualified Presidential Candidate gets $100 million as a Grant for his/her Campaign; and NO fund-raising allowed.
I've seen that suggested a few times over here
[snippety]
(2) "It's my money and I can spend it on whatever darned candidate I choose!".
A few years ago I thought that the grant system for President was a good idea. It's our President, let the people fund the campaign. Plus, it keeps a rein on the nominees and shows us who's responsible with money (our tax dollars). The President-elect that has a grant surplus is fiscally conservative and therefore, good for the country. GWB wouldn't have stood a chance if we'd had that.

Issue #1: I agree on the "spend on whichever candidate I choose!" point. I wouldn't want my tax dollars to go towards Sarah Palin's shopping spree. If that'd been the case I'd be hacked off fifteen ways to Sunday. And I'd be livid if McCain used my tax dollars to spread lies about my favoured candidate, Obama.

Issue #2: The two-party system. Give grants to the various "Third Party" candidates, too. Problem is, nobody can agree which "Third Party" is the Third Party. Is it the Libertarians, the Greens, the Constitutions, the Peace & Freedoms, the American Independents, the (real) Socialists (Chuck Baldwin)?
The problem here is your electoral system. While you've got two parties in an all-or-nothing game all the centrists can do is take votes off one or more of them. I don't know when America had its last president who wasn't a Republican or a Democrat, but it wouldn't have been during your lifetime, let alone my own.
I agree. I've been pushing for an abolition of the Electoral College for decades now. I joined the Libertarians in the early '90s on a "vote my values" run. Problem was, I was frustrated as hell because we were on the outside looking in and could never run for the Prize, the White House. The best we could do in the Presidential Race was "send a message."

Well, we sent a message in 2000. 'Nuff said. The problem with abolishing the Electoral College is that it'd take a Constitutional amendment, which requires nothing short of mass hysteria or threatened armed insurrection to do. That's how Prohibition got passed and repealed. It's gonna take a hell of a lot more than a few hundred thousand disgruntled intellectuals or environmentalists calling and e-mailing the offices of their Senators and Congresscritters.

My grassroots friends are trying an experiment with the county Democratic Party. We're creating a Green Caucus and young-turking Green Party ideals into the Democratic Party platform. It's going to be done by recruiting from the Green Party and seeding them slowly into Precinct Captain positions. No, the Dems aren't as eco-friendly as you'd think. Women and trees tend to take a back seat to social services, most often; not to say social services are a bad thing, and generally, the average person's quality of life is better when Democrats are at the wheel.

Not entirely far-fetched. When I was growing up the Republican base was in large metropolitan centres, they were Blue, and the Democrats championed the salt-of-the-earth/blue collar/faith communities (Red). The Repubs started hewing towards the Red with Nixon and via horror vacuuo, the Democrats osmosized into the urban centres. Religious conservatives Young Turked the Republican Party in the '80s, and we've seen how that worked out.
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Anubis »

You know the reason why I said what I said in my first post.

First, I was angry, not just at Obama, but also (I know I shouldn't have been) at his supporters. People that are so condescending, and so up on their high horse. That people talked down to me on how stupid I was for supporting/voting for McCain and being critical of Obama and his policies. People just wont leave me alone, about it on and off line. I started to out right hate Obama because of it.

second, I was scared, scared what I would Obama would actually do as president, and what might result cause of it. Because I have stuff, that could effect me both directly and indirectly on a personal level. I feel that my way of life, and my family is at stake.

Seeing this thread putting Obama on a pedistal thrown me over the edge. I was rash and I was stupid. Even though I said it, I don't truely mean it. Yeah, I should have waited and calm down from my moment of passion be fore hitting the 'submit' button.

Again for the millionth time I'm sorry!

Silent Hunter: Of course my statements was biased, IT WAS MY OPINION!!! What you said felt like it was to spite me.
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by vrikasatma »

Lupin wrote:Looking at the breakdown of his campaign contributions, I don't really see that. According to the FEC about half ($280M) of his financing came from people who donated $200 or less. Meanwhile, the top contributor to his campaign, the University of California, only contributed $909,283. That discrepancy significantly reduces the leverage of any single person or group.
Thank you, I wanted to touch on that.
Red Eye, what exactly did you mean by "political contributors?" Did you mean endorsements?
If by that you meant politicians that endorsed him, let's have a look at "payback."
"Payback" meaning positions in his administration.
Joe Biden, VP: If, Heaven forfend, Barack should be assassinated, Joe Biden would be a good man to pick up the slack.
Rep. Earl Blumenauer, D-OR, co-chair of the Oregon State campaign. In line for Transportation Secretary.
Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-OR, endorsement. Head of the House Committee on Budget. Led the opposition to the recent Wall Street bailout. He's already scrambling people to find money for Barack's social works projects, ahead of Day One.
Governor Bill Richardson, endorsement, frontrunner for Secretary of State. Do you deny he'd be a good one?
Colin Powell, Republican, endorsement. Shortlist for Secretary of Education and Secretary of Defense. Acceptable in either.
Chuck Hagel, R-NE, former running mate shortlist, also on the shortlist for Secty Defense.
RFK Jr., shortlist for EPA chief. I'd like to see him as Energy Secretary, but either's a good fit.
Hillary Clinton, possible nominee for Supreme Court Justice. She'd be a good foil to Justices Thomas and Scalia and balance the Court Leftwards.
Howard Dean, short list for Health/Human Services.

As for the budget, it's true. The vast majority of Obama's contributions came from broke 'n starving hoi polloi like me, and we're who he's going to "pay back." Behold! A President, beholden to We The People! Isn't that how it's supposed to go?
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Silent Hunter »

Anubis wrote:Of course my statements was biased, IT WAS MY OPINION!!!
Anubis wrote:espesially by Silent Hunter which seemed like 2/3 were valid, 1/3 trashing me, 100% biased against me
Wait so you can have a baised opinion against me yet you squeal when I have a "biased" opinion against you? How was I even biased? I asked for proof, gasve you facts and pointed out flaws? Also just because its you opinion does not mean its not formed on invalid infomation making it a flawed one. Thats why I pointed a laod of things out to you.

Also, spiting you? I called you deluded and selfish at the most? I know its not happy words and hugs but I did not really call you anything worse and you honestly came about that way to me. I don't like upsetting you or anything but you are being every offensive.

NOw I know it may feel like Obam surporters are rubbing it in your face but a lot of people are just happy to see the Bush era die and the Republicans knocked down a beg. It may be scary but you are going on flawed infomation which many have pointed out. I am with Matt on all this. He has really summed up the best course of action.
"Religion and politics
Often make some people
Lose all perspective and
Give way to ranting and raving and
Carrying on like emotional children.
They either refuse to discuss it with reason,
Or else they prefer argumentum ad hominem,
Which is a hell of a way to conduct a discussion."
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Baphnedia »

Silent Hunter, it's natural to lash back after a perceived, real or unreal attack. You and Anubis are still fighting, as far as I can tell, endlessly trying to debase one another, in this thread. Though recent posts by both of you seem to show that you're both trying to redefine and retrace those painful steps of posts long past. It happens. It's not just you two who've become heated in this discussion. Once emotions get involved, it is very difficult to objectively separate points of view from personal attacks. Also, when one is expressing their opinion, it is possible to entertain the idea without changing your personal beliefs.

When someone is brought into the defensive, everything the 'attacker' says becomes a personal attack. I may seem a bit aloof here - that's because I edit out the more provocative statements I write on the first draft. I can't possibly try to serve as some sort of mediator or peacemaker if I put half the group on the defensive through my own actions.

The recourse I would suggest to those (aside from Anubis whose already done this) is to apologize, with no strings attached. Not "I'm sorry that I called you a doody-head because you called me a spineless pig..." but a flat-out "I'm sorry." This doesn't have to be done publicly, doing it via PM is just fine. I don't even have to know that you've done it - because this is between one another, not between you and me.

The important thing here is to realize that heated issues get hot because those on any side of the issue care about it. I would be more concerned if this topic went the way the 'Obama Won!!!111!' topic did in my POOP group (Political Opinions and Opinionated Posts, mind you). There is no post there. It was not important enough to members there to post. This shows that members of The Pack believe whatever they believe and are willing to fight for what's important to them, and I couldn't be happier to see that pack members still give a damn.
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Uniform Two Six »

RedEye wrote: First, Obama. He seems a decent enough fellow, but I really DON'T LIKE the people he owes favors to. That is the single thing that has tripped up many, many past Presidents; Debts. He will pay them, never fear; he has to if he wants to get re-elected.
Not necessarily. Remember back in 1993 and 1994, Clinton (Bill that is) really torqued off his own party by going out of his way to compromise with the Republicans. He made alot of enemies among his own people during that time and was once decried by (I think) Senator Feinstein as being the "most ardent Republican" in the country. This is largely forgotten because the Republicans quickly proved the old adage "give an inch and they'll take a mile" and forced Clinton into some of the most vicious fights over appropriations we've seen in a couple of decades, going so far as to refuse to pass a budget and partially shutting down the Federal Government not once, but twice. And then there was the whole Lewinsky scandal... anywhoo, the reality is that a president that is popular enough can get away with alot without all that much love from his political "allies" in Congress, since they have an electorate to answer to, and they can't look like they're obstructing their own guy in the White House, especially if the rest of the party loves him.
This is the situation Obama finds himself in right now. He is so deliriously popular among the Dems, that he can pretty much do anything he wants without fear of political recriminations from within the party. On the other hand, that's also a potential recipe for disaster...

Oh, and Midnight, the last President of the United States not to belong to either the Democrats or Republicans was Millard Fillmore (1850-1853) of the Whig Party. And yes that shouldn't be within the lifetime of anyone here. If it is, then they're probably a vampire and shouldn't be on a werewolf board anyway.
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Zombie »

Goonight, and good luck America.
We`ll all be needing it.
God Bless America.

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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Terastas »

Lupin wrote:Looking at the breakdown of his campaign contributions, I don't really see that. According to the FEC about half ($280M) of his financing came from people who donated $200 or less. Meanwhile, the top contributor to his campaign, the University of California, only contributed $909,283. That discrepancy significantly reduces the leverage of any single person or group.
Good point. The only persons Obama owes a severe favor to are the American people that put their faith in him; his priority #1 should be to the people, who expect nothing of him except to fix what Bush broke.

On top of that, while he does have many A-list supporters, to the best of my knowledge, he didn't alter his intended policies to cater to them. He has some past history with the nuclear industry, yes, but the push for alternative energy is more a result of the rising cost of fuel, the bad economy, the conflict in the Middle East, and the environment snowballed together in one big issue. More so, he has placed much more emphasis on solar and wind, not the nuclear industry he has previous ties to, so his alternative energy stance should hardly be attributed to some of his previous associations. To the best of my knowledge, he didn't make any promises in exchange for campaign contributions; he just laid out his course of action and the people that stood to benefit lined up behind it.
Joe Biden, VP: If, Heaven forfend, Barack should be assassinated, Joe Biden would be a good man to pick up the slack.
Rep. Earl Blumenauer, D-OR, co-chair of the Oregon State campaign. In line for Transportation Secretary.
Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-OR, endorsement. Head of the House Committee on Budget. Led the opposition to the recent Wall Street bailout. He's already scrambling people to find money for Barack's social works projects, ahead of Day One.
Governor Bill Richardson, endorsement, frontrunner for Secretary of State. Do you deny he'd be a good one?
Colin Powell, Republican, endorsement. Shortlist for Secretary of Education and Secretary of Defense. Acceptable in either.
Chuck Hagel, R-NE, former running mate shortlist, also on the shortlist for Secty Defense.
RFK Jr., shortlist for EPA chief. I'd like to see him as Energy Secretary, but either's a good fit.
Hillary Clinton, possible nominee for Supreme Court Justice. She'd be a good foil to Justices Thomas and Scalia and balance the Court Leftwards.
Howard Dean, short list for Health/Human Services.
There's speculation that John Kerry may also be on the short list for Secretary of State; either he or Richardson would be a good fit I think (if I could vote, it'd be for Richardson, but I'll take either).

In fact, the only person on that list I'd have any reason to have doubts about is Howard Dean, and even then that's only because of the "YEAH!!!" issue (although I suppose SNL needs somebody they can parody; the guy they have doing Obama sucks). And the only person speculated that you could argue he might owe a favor to is Caroline Kennedy, and last I checked, she's being speculated for an ambassadorship, not a position in the cabinet.
So I really do not get the "he owes favors" argument. Favors to who? Oprah? :wink:
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Re: Obama Won!

Post by Lupin »

Terastas wrote: So I really do not get the "he owes favors" argument. Favors to who? Oprah? :wink:
Ellen Degeneres, for letting him dance on national Television.
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