Venting

[Wselfwulf]

and purpose of the universe

I'd say atheism falls flat there. No implied assumptions either way.

This includes the belief, statement or fact that none of that fluff is true still constitutes a religious belief

Wait...I think you didn't got at exactly what you were trying to say. You defined it, then said not believing in it is it, if that makes sense. Also we have plenty of words for positions that are not religions, no reason why atheism cannot be one of them. It's honestly less of a loaded claim about the machinations of the universe than people ascribe it to.

As for nihilism, people who accuse it of being paradoxical are playing a semantic game, like the compatibilists. Might you say an absteiner absteins from everything, including absention, thus making him not an absteiner? I don't know, you might, but a lot less people would.

[Celestialwolf]

I don't want to get into polygamy, but to be brief; all throughout the Bible, when the Lord said it was OK, there was no problem with it. That's the difference--He has to authorize it, which it was in this case.

You're still making the assumption that the Lord actually did say that. It's circle logic: the automatic assumption that the Book of Mormon is the word of God because it says so in the Book of Mormon.

"Why not ask the wise old Bonboon? He knows everything. He told me himself."
~Franklin, Viva Pinata

Charles Manson said he was Jesus, but you wouldn't hesitate to question his claim, would you? So why not Joseph Smith Jr? Because he has the full support and belief of a bunch of racists/polygamists just like himself?

And yes, you can apply that to the Bible. And the Koran, and pretty much every other religious text that's ever been printed. Just because it's written doesn't mean it's true.

Some things you just have to pray about. If you do it sincerely you'll receive an answer. My invitation to you? Read the introduction to the Book of Mormon, focusing on the last two paragraphs and the promise it contains [link]. Then read the following chapter of the Book of Mormon: [link]. Then, sincerely pray to know if it's true.
Let me know how it goes!

[Midnight]

.

[Terastas]

Precisely. So why single out the Mormons?

Because my argument is presently with a Mormon. If a mainstream Catholic ever Bible-thumps at me, I'll go into detail about why he's wrong. If a Muslim ever gets preachy with me, I'll put Muhammad and the Koran on the chopping block. If a Scientologist ever gets in my face, I'll rip L. Ron Hubbard a proverbial new one.

But no Catholic, Muslim or Scientologist has ever preached the supremacy of their religion here on the forum, so until then, I'll respect their silence with silence in kind.

And just for the record, I don't have any issue with Celestialwolf as a person. It's just that, reading his replies, I don't feel like I'm arguing with him. More like I'm arguing with a Mormon priest through him. That's how this all began; with him venting about things about himself that sounded like someone else had warped him into believing.

Me personally, I don't pray and listen to God. I meditate and listen to my conscience (which, if God didn't want me to use, he never should have given me in the first place). That would be my advice to you Celestialwolf: stop and honestly think, and listen with your heart instead of your ears.

[Baphnedia]

I'd say atheism falls flat there. No implied assumptions either way.

With atheism, there is an assumption, or a belief. Not all atheists have the same religious beliefs, and will get into heated arguments - just like Christians get into heated arguments over their religious doctrine. Some examples that I've witnessed myself:

There is no god.
Because there is no god, all religions are wrong. (it seems almost every major religion has the 'We are right and everyone else is wrong' attitude)...
The purpose of the universe is to exist // There is no purpose to the universe.
The universe began with the Big Bang.
The purpose of life is to procreate.
Moral code is the only good thing to come from a holy book. (there have been some interesting disagreements on this point)...
Moral code comes from the laws that govern us.
Moral code comes from our conscience.
Moral code is worthless, and I'll do what I want.

I'm not entering into the 'fringe atheist' views either - nothing about how we all were infused with intelligence by aliens, and how the mothership is going to save us, etc. For something to be a religion, no one has to write an official book and have ceremonies.

I'm not saying that you have to believe whether atheism is a religion or not. The most damning piece of evidence that I can find to that effect is The First Church of Atheism. I don't know how seriously to take that website, but at first glance, it doesn't seem to be a parody.

If you don't change your stance, I'm not offended. You've helped me clarify why I feel Atheism is in and of itself, a religion, and at the very least, you've detailed out your stance as well. Thanks for the conversation - I don't think I have anything that I can add at this point.

[Gevaudan]

Pardon my rhetoric, hyperbole, and exaggeration in the following rant:

We know that everybody has different beliefs and practices. Can't we all just agree to hate the assholes who harass others because of it? It's bad enough that there are starving children, dying animals, senseless wars, hate violence, a dying planet, corrupt politicians, and the like! Instead of arguing the specifics of what I believe in, I show people. I live out my life by helping others, being polite and courteous, and doing whatever I can to solve obvious problems rationally! I don't care if the guy next to me is a Mormon, a Jew, a Christian, an atheist, a Satanic worshiper, a Scientologist, or whatever; if he's helping out the poor at, say, a soup kitchen, then I'll think to myself, "Hey, he's a pretty nice guy." I say that whatever your morals are, you need to demonstrate them to truly convince people (or at least me) how they can function properly and ethically in today's society. That's why I get pissed when someone points at someone else, saying, "You're wrong, and this is why!" without themselves demonstrating with actual experience and results (a posteriori) precisely why their system is better. OK, I understand that beliefs tend to influence actions, but when can we learn not to judge people by the fact that they believe in Keebler Elves, but by whether or not they fed a homeless guy for the day?

I apologize. I'm not usually this exaggerated, but this religious talk is making me nauseous.

Now that I'm done ranting, I want to know how you guys demonstrate your beliefs in everyday life. I go to a private Catholic school, so volunteer work is mandatory to pass.

EDIT: This is eerily relevant. In the Old Testament, the prophet Amos condemns empty worship; that is, rituals of praise and sacrifice that are not backed up by any compassion or just actions towards others (Amos 5:21-24). This was said to be one of Dr. Martin Luther King's favorite passages.

[Wselfwulf]

Thank you as well. Orderly disagreement is never a bad thing because it keeps your opinions fresh and informed. My final thoughts:


a negation, or null hypothesis, is not the burden of proof and doesn't imply a religious stance. Eg asantaclausism/atoothfairyism is not a religion. This is often where I nab agnostics.

most of the digressions in atheism you list there are philosophical positions, far from religion. For all of those things, 'no god' may be used as reason for, but does not logically imply, any of those positions, which people try to support with reason as opposed to righteous doctrine. 'Moral code comes from the law that governs us' for example is moral relativism and is usually harboured by both theists and atheists, since supernaturalism falls flat on it's face.

This church also appears a rather embaressing institution to allow atheists a pain-free marriage. Rather than think of this as damning, try to understand the position. Anton Lavey's 'Church of Satanism' only qualifies as a religion because of talk of unexplained 'magics' or some such involved. Otherwise 'church' would just be an epithet that you could slap on to, say, Ayn Rand's objectivists and call it the Church of Ayn Rand, and make a new religion.

[Kaebora]

I say, to each his own. Why? Because all religions that stemmed from Christianity have the same thing in common:

Faith = Salvation

As long as members of other religions leave me to beleive whatever I want to, I have no issue with them. If another group steps up and says I can't be a Baptist Christian, THEN we have a problem.

[Dreamer]

Don't you mean all religions that stemmed from Judaism Kaebora?

Because that's where it all started.

[Wselfwulf]

Try egyptian mythology and paganism!

[Terastas]

To get back to venting: My brother did it again. He once again blatantly took a cheap shot at me, only this time my mother got caught in the crossfire too.

So essentially, I've already gotten what I really really wanted for Christmas: for our mother to wake up and realize what a total P.O.S. excuse for a human being my older brother really is.

Here's what happened: When I left Vegas after our ultimate falling out earlier this year, I could only take one small carry-on luggage and one more in storage. My mother had sent out three whole boxes of stuff thinking I'd be staying there, so I couldn't take everything home; everything she'd sent out, I packed right back up in those three boxes to be sent out later. I knew there was a good chance I'd never see anything I'd repacked ever again, but she was on his back about it, so I knew he wouldn't just throw them out like I'm sure he wanted to.

Anyway, of the three boxes, two of them had mostly clothes in them as well as some fragile stuff I'd intentionally wrapped in the clothes, and the other one was a smaller box that had mostly CDs, computer software and a bunch of other electronic stuff in it. Well, yesterday, I finally got the two boxes with the clothes in it, and today we got the smaller box. . .
In which we found a woman's handbag.

The only other two things we found inside were a bus schedule I'd previously put on top of the package contents so nobody could see into it, and a note from the USPS apologizing that the package had been damaged (but it was an old box to begin with, so I think they just looked at the box and threw the note in to be better safe than sorry). At first my mother thought he'd sent her the package as a gift (since he'd addressed it to her instead of me) and called him up to thank him / let him know about it, but he called up shortly thereafter sounding very surprised because he'd never sent a purse to begin with.

That got her upset because she thought somebody from the postal service had stolen all of my CDs/electronics and stuck the purse in there (I, on the other hand, already knew what was coming). She asked him to check on it, and he later called back stating that the missing handbag must belong to his girlfriend's mother (both of whom he is currently living with).

So Mr. Wonderful somehow misplaced everything I had packed and taped up the night before I left and accidentally sent out his girlfriend's mother's handbag? Yeah right!

So the consensus between my mother and I is now that he'd held off mailing my stuff back just to screw with me, and that he'd unpacked the box with the electronics in it to sort out anything he wanted for himself (and probably decided he wanted everything, again, just to screw with me, except for the bus schedule with he probably just left in there as trash), that his GF's mom had used the now-empty box for herself, and that once she finally demanded to get sent the boxes back (one of them had my winter boots in them), he just taped it up and shipped it out without even bothering to look in it, thinking he was sending out an empty box and that our mother would assume everything had been stolen (which she almost did).

We still don't know the full story yet, however, because when our mother offered to send the purse back, he told her "oh don't, it's just an old purse." Nuh-uh, it's a new purse. It even still has that "new car" smell on it. So now she knows without a shadow of a doubt that he's B.S.ing her. I could have told her years ago he could not be trusted to tell the truth about anything under the sun, but she tuned it all out. Now she knows without a shadow of a doubt.

I packed all that stuff knowing I'd probably never see it again, so I'm not upset that he screwed me out of it, or that he thought I'd be stupid enough to think somebody at the postal service stole it.

I'm venting, however, because even after this, I think my mother is still clinging to her illusions that I'm the rotten egg of the two of us, because even after these she's only stating that she "didn't raise you two to be like this" or "doesn't know where you two went wrong."

The problem is that "we" never went wrong. He went wrong and he dragged me down with him. When she put us in the same apartment together while we were going to college, I was a full-time student, while he was taking one class a week and getting stoned/wasted every day while dipping into my college savings to pay his half of the rent. When we lived together in Vegas, every day I went out and looked for a job, and every day he was gambling with the fat of his job by smoking pot, at least when he wasn't trying to make my life a living hell in new creative ways. I've been honest to her about everything apart from my most personal inner-most thoughts which I have not shared with anyone, meanwhile he's a habitual liar; he's lied to her about things he didn't even have to lie about (when he sent me packing back to Massachusetts, for example, he told her he'd gotten me a window seat when it was actually a seat in the middle; he didn't have to lie about that, but for some reason, he did).

She knew way back when we were in junior high that he was a rotten human being, but she always tried to ignore it, always tried to believe he was a model citizen and I was a worthless screw-up just like he told her, because he had a job and was giving her money; she let him buy her love. I could have (and often did) tell her everything he'd ever done to kick us both back down, but she didn't want to hear any of it because then she would have felt guilty cashing the checks he was writing to her. Now that it's painfully obvious that he's not only an a-hole, but evidently thinks as little of her (if not less) as he does of me, the best she can do is say that we were both screw-ups.

So what do I want for Christmas now? For my mother to say "Okay Terry, I'm sorry I ever doubted you." I want her to consent that everything my brother ever said of me is now suspect, and for her to now give me at least the benefit of a doubt.

[/end rant]

[Celestialwolf]

How come you don't just move somewhere else?

[Baphnedia]

Good luck Terastas - I stopped wishing for other people to do or say things to me quite some time ago, because for me, it just never turned out the way I wanted it. These days I just focus on my own reactions to things - and go with that.

[Vagrant]

I feel your pain, Terastas, and I can relate more than you may ever know.

I've had good relations with my Grandmother for a long time now, she's been good to me, and she's the only person in my family I tend to get along with. This is mostly because she's the most open-minded, and to most of the family it's an affront to whatever it is they believe in to look and behave differently. But she and I, at least, have a rapport.

I have an Aunt, however, whom I would say is corruption given flesh and thought. She has a middle-class job, yet my Grandmother is fairly poor (being a senior class citizen). She would sweet talk my Grandmother, and take money and "borrow" items which most of the time would never be seen again. She would also try the house from time to time to see if the door was locked (and for a time she even had her own key), so she could acquire herself a five-fingered deal, knowing there would be no repercussions.

This kind of exploitation of the elderly is a concept I find sickening, and so unethical ... well, shameless and heartless were that woman's forte. And she would only show her true face if you refused her something, at which point she'd start yelling her head off and threatening property damage. When it was necessary, I'd slum in my Grandmother's house when she was out so that my Aunt couldn't get away with anything. I had to threaten to call the police more times than I can count, and once or twice I actually ended up doing just that, because otherwise I wouldn't have been able to resist the urge to enact some vigilante justice (which she would've sued me for, that's the kind of person she is).

For years I saw her do this, cadging off my Grandmother, whether it was just household commodities or things more valuable. And the woman has a husband, and they're well off, she has a 60something inch TV in her living room and she frequently holidays abroad. Yet often she'd be on the doorstep, expectant of something, and this happened every day for years.

I couldn't do anything because my Grandmother wouldn't listen to reason. The Aunt was family of course, specially ... her daughter. So I was considered something of a rabble-rouser, and if I really got annoyed, I'd usually be given the cold-shoulder for "talking about [the Aunt] that way." The best I ever got was "You're just as bad as each other!", it was so painful for me that it was driving me crazy.

Fortunately, my tale has a happy ending to it. The Aunt's daughter recently moved out, and because that Aunt is a lazy, worthless sack of lard, she refused to help her daughter out at a time of great need, when she was really sick. My Grandmother finally came around ... talked to the Aunt, and on actually acting negative towards her, my Grandmother finally saw her for the despicable creature she was. I was understandably pleased by this development.

My Aunt is refusing to talk to my Grandmother now, and what's worse is that she's cut off access to the Grandchildren ... because that's the kind of woman she is. But it's better than the way things used to be, even if it isn't perfect. Still, what kind of mother would refuse children the right to see their Grandmother?

It's encountering people like that (and others, but I don't want to talk so much about my past) that set my ethical compass so very straight. I have a strong, unimpeded, and unimpaired sense of what's right and what's ethical now due to them, so I do have something to thank them for.

But yes, all families have people like that, Terastas. The junk genetic material has to go somewhere...

[Terastas]

Oh I know every family has "one of them" in it. The real irony is that my mother's family situation was almost identical to mine: she had a little half-sister that was a brat as a kid, screwed her royally as an adult, whom their mother had unquestionable favoritism towards, and whom she consequently hasn't spoken to in years either. I know he's her son too, but it strikes me as hypocrisy sometimes how she can stick up for him and expects me to go easy on him in spite of everything he's done, meanwhile she can't get over the fact that her mother gave her sister special treatment even when she was putting the screws to her the exact same way.

I will say this in her defense: her sister / my aunt did some things that make my brother look tame by comparison (chief among them being pulling the plug on their father and then trying to bar us from the funeral), but then again, my brother hasn't had the opportunity to royally screw me like that because both of our parents are still alive. I really worry that, when the time finally comes, she's going to entrust her will/funeral to him and he's going to top that.

And now for something completely different:

I got an early Christmas gift from my father. It was a book called Instant Zen.

. . . . . .

. . . . . .

. . . . . .

THERE IS NO INSTANT ZEN!!!!!!

People are doing to Zen what was done to Wicca -- they're taking a once reputable/honorable religion and packaging it into something a bunch of suburbanite neanderthal dullards can exploit over the weekend. The zen masters of old dedicated their entire lives to the pursuit of enlightenment and these idiots (my father among them) think they can just buy enlightenment off the shelf?

Gawd!

[Kami]

I'm rather frustrated. Three of my best friends are ignoring me, and I don't know why. I can't ask them why; after all, they are ignoring me. Dx

I don't think I've done anything wrong..

But I can't find out anything if they won't tell me..

[Vagrant]

Gawd!

I hope the intention was to engage the audience in laughter, because I certainly laughed. I agree with you though, and it's really a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it? And that's the thing of it.

I remember an episode of Red Dwarf where they had something called tension sheets, it was basically just bubbled wrapping paper painted red with "Tension Sheet" written on it, it was designed to provide quick relief for tense and stressed people. And it only really worked until someone realised that it was just packing paper, and it actually did nothing at all. It was just a clever placebo.

The whole "Instant Zen!" thing reminds me of that, after a fashion.

Kami: Don't let it stress you, they'll come around and tell you if they want to, and if they don't tell you then you need to re-evaluate whether they were really ever your friends, because if they were they would've felt obligated to owe you an explanation at least, out of respect. If they're ignoring you and they haven't given you an explanation, then it's they who are at fault, to my mind.

[Kami]

Thanks Vagrant.

Unfortunately, I don't have many friends, and if I were to lose those three so suddenly.. Well, I'd be left with almost no one.

[Vagrant]

If they are important, then you could always try doing something to get their attention, is there any way you could leave them a note? All you'd have to do is point out that if they were really ever your friends, they should give you an explanation, they'd owe you that much out of respect. That's all you'd have to say, and then it would be a matter of waiting to see what their response is.

If you can't get their attention at all though, then the only thing you can do is ride it out and try not to let it get to you too much. The thing is; from your view, you've done nothing wrong you can see, therefore any negative feelings wouldn't be at all valid. You have to ensure that it doesn't get to you, and let time sort it all out.

[Terastas]

Gawd!

I hope the intention was to engage the audience in laughter, because I certainly laughed. I agree with you though, and it's really a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it? And that's the thing of it.

Well, a part of me was absolutely frustrated, but yeah, given the opportunity, I could easily write twenty minutes of stand-up about this, especially with the Wicca tie-in.

I remember an episode of Red Dwarf where they had something called tension sheets, it was basically just bubbled wrapping paper painted red with "Tension Sheet" written on it, it was designed to provide quick relief for tense and stressed people. And it only really worked until someone realised that it was just packing paper, and it actually did nothing at all. It was just a clever placebo.

The whole "Instant Zen!" thing reminds me of that, after a fashion.

*nods* In my case, it reminded me of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. There's a bunch of comparisons I could make to this all through the book, but the one I think most people are familiar with is the philosophers protesting the construction of Deep Thought because the revelation of the secrets of the universe would put them out of business.

The ultimate irony is that the same person that introduced me to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy also gave me Instant Zen this Christmas. Now granted, I could have seen this coming: He has these spoken word tapes of a zen master that he listens to in the car (which I sometimes teased him for by calling them "Instant Zen" or "Zen-2-Go"), but I didn't think he'd ever stoop to buying a simplified version of Zen. He loves and knows more about THGttG than I do -- he's one of the last people I ever thought would stoop to this.

EDIT: And no, I don't think he sent it to me as a joke. He included a hand-written note stating that the book had a "profound influence" on him, so I'm pretty sure he'd meant it to be a serious gift.

[lycanthropeful]

I'm angry at myself that I'm angry... and I'm only angry in the first place because I'd rather be roleplaying over AIM with a friend tonight instead of going to see some of my family for Christmas Eve. The holidays are all about family, but I was still pissed when my dad told me this morning that at 7 we'd be going to dinner at my cousin's house.

I'm a terrible person. And the roleplay's just getting GOOD!

[Vagrant]

I'm a terrible person.

Bah, if you are then so am I.

My family tends to all converge on one spot at Christmas, and one year when they were particularly persistent for me to join them, I was almost tempted to go and hide in the attic as if I were waiting out a zombie apocalypse, just to not have to be around all the loud children (I suffer chronic tinnitus, very loud things are unhealthy for me).

Sometimes I get pulled along, sometimes I hide successfully enough so they don't happen to catch me with my proverbial pants down. But the whole family together is something I can't say I enjoy. I do like spending some time with my Grandmother, because she's fun, but the rest of them ... meh, I have more fun things I could be doing online.

[lycanthropeful]

(I suffer chronic tinnitus, very loud things are unhealthy for me).

No way, my grandmother has that! It's just the opposite for her - she can't hear a darned thing with the ringing, so she's the source of loud noises, since she has to always yell "Huh?" and ask us to repeat what we said. Holidays can be frustrating sometimes because of it, but it's always worth it in the end.

You know, though, that they sell supplementation to correct tinnitus? When I worked at a supplement store, we sold a product called RingStop. Who knows if it worked, but it was all natural and supposed to help ease the ringing in your ears. I believe if you take nervous system supplements, like alpha-lipoic acid or inositol, those can sometimes help too.

Sorry I just went all doctor on you. I miss working there. They kicked me out for my six week winter break only because they didn't need any seasonal workers at the time, so I hope I can work there again in the summer. I loved learning what all those supplements did, and I feel like I can help people.

[Vagrant]

Really? I have checked the local co-op but they never had anything of the sort. Are those American? If so, that could be why. Due to the NHS, branded medicines haven't really taken off over here, except for things like pain-killers and more mundane medicines. Perhaps I just need to shop around more and ask them about what you've mentioned, there.

I did actually try with my local general practitioner to get some meds for it, but there weren't any he was inclined to prescribe, because the ones he was familiar with had worse side-effects than the tinnitus itself. So after that I had really given up hope of getting any kind of medication for it...

Thanks for what you've told me, really ... I will have to do some looking into this again, because it drives me crazy sometimes. My ears are like bally tuning forks, a loud noise ... a bang, shouting ... and things like stress, really sets them off and prolonged noises can leave me in a bad way. So some way to ease it is something I'd like. A lot.

[outwarddoodles]

Lycanthropeful: I'm in the same boat. I always carry a book with me and find quiet places to hide for family parties/gatherings. I've been going to these extended family parties for years, and I still don't know the majority of the people there.