JINGLES TALK THREAD! COME DISCUSS WITH MEH!

[Wingman]

@Wingman: Aaaah, I love the one by Meatloaf. XD The other one is pretty awesome (describes how I feel some mornings, too).

They're both by Meatloaf...aren't they? I might have foisted some bad copypasta on you.

Just checked, yup, both Meatloaf.

And of course I want to hear about the changes in your weres. Mechanical in nature? Like, dice-rolling and tabletop gaming style? Or biological?

A bit of both, since I'm changing them on pretty much every level. In essence, they're not really werewolves anymore, at least not in the sense as what typically comes to mind when you think "Werewolf". The idea is modeled off of the manga/anime Claymore and the relationship between the titular Claymores and the Yoma.
Basically, even the weakest of these folk has a rather hefty amount of power at their disposal, and a rather good degree of control over how it's distributed, but they can only utilize so much of it safely. The more they use, the farther from human they become, until nothing is left but the monster.
I'm building it off of the RPG system I'm writing, so I've got a rather unlimited degree of freedom, which is intensely gratifying rather than having to conform my ideas to a system that wasn't designed to support them.

So, essentially my "Werewolves" are not actually werewolves any more, at least not in the sense that they transform into wolves. More like, my Werewolves are now in the process of trying to not go completely lose control as they keep the real "werewolves" from slaughtering everyone and festooning the world with their entrails. Though, that part is slightly inspired by The Beast That Was Max by Gerard Houarner. Which has got me going all fangirl over it, that and Dexter.

But yes, dicerolling and stuff, since I find that I think of my best ideas when they have a solid foundation upon which to operate, and it helps control absurdity.

[Midnight]

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[Vagrant]

outward: My interest in shifting...

The topic you've given me there is a hard one to cover, but it's actually none of those things, I actually came to be interested in those things later, but my desire to shift is borne of something from my pup years.

Have you heard of the concept of morphological freedom?

I've always been interested in philosophy, Science, and civil freedoms; I used to ask the only people in my family that actually cared to listen some very strange and difficult to answer questions. I picked up the same love for animals that most of the people on this forum have, somewhere along the way, and go a mind already frustrated with the chained nature of Humanity, it wasn't long before I started wondering about... well, that.

Why couldn't I be a Wolf, or a Dragon, or an Eagle? Why were we so very limited? It was a point of agonising frustration for me, and one that's remained with me for all my years.

What I am today is just a refinement of that. Wolves always were my favourite, and I know quite a bit about Wolves and find them admirable, so I suppose I latched on to the lupine element more than any.

Later on in life, I became interested in all sorts of things; hypnosis, spirituality, even drugs (though I've never abused, too much risk), and so on... I learned of all these wonderful things that people had done, and how people were convinced that it was basically their duty to hack themselves, that Humans have evolved in such a way that this is inevitable.

I don't know if you're familiar with DMT and the concept of machine elves, but there are those who've related DMT with accessing the Human "operating system", after a fashion, and perhaps that's one gateway to redesigning it.

A Scientific interest wasn't far behind, and I couldn't help but get interested in genetics, nanotechnology, and similar topics.

So there you have it!

I don't know how to answer your question directly, but maybe my answer would be "All of the above?". It has become spiritual to me, in many ways, and it is borne of curiosity, on many levels, and need on many more.

As for the whole "switch" thing, it's something that just comes with time. The interesting thing is that I always found my own way of doing things, and my methods are always a mess of factors, some of which I've been very succcessful, and others I haven't had much success at all with. I've learned to give some a name, but others still have to be pointed out to me.

With any capability though, it's just training. If I were to start athletic running today, I'd be hopeless at it, but give it enough time and the will to get good at it and I'd probably scorch across great distances. Both meditation and self-hypnosis are the same, it's just diligence, practice, and patience.

You're every bit as far along as I am, by my reckoning and probably even more so, but I'm being so elaborate because in reading these posts, we might just get others hooked on these ideas. And in my opinion, it's really something people should experiment with.

I'm even going to start working with the official methods you introduced me to, to see if I have any luck with those. Wish me luck!

[outwarddoodles]

Vagrant: That's a very interesting veiwpoint in regards to shifting -- And don't feel bad if you think you haven't fully covered it properly. It was kind of a personal question anyway.

I was thinking about your 'technique' last night; and it makes a striking amount of sense.

In regards to lucid dreaming: I've heard, although I'm unsure if this is anecdotal or scientific, that the part of your brain that controls balance is in some way connected to your unconscious, so if you were to imagine yourself spinning that it would help facilitate drowsiness. I do, in fact, like to imagine myself spinning on nights that I can't fall asleep. So maybe you've independantly discovered the connection between vertigo and sleep.

In regards to sensory deprivation: Along with depriving yourself of light, sound, and other stimuli, turning yourself around in your chair would also be depriving youself of your orientation -- IE. Normally when you close your eyes, you're still aware of your surroundings, but randomly spinning yourself will cause you to lose track of your surroundings; which may cause your brain to want to create its own, new surroundings.

So, in my eyes, it's not such a silly technique after all.
(*imagines buying a book entitled: "Spinning in Chairs: Vertigo and Unlocking Your Mind!"*)

I'm even going to start working with the official methods you introduced me to, to see if I have any luck with those. Wish me luck!

I wish you much luck, indeed! For concepts like this, it's usually a hit and miss when it comes to methods and techniques for myself. It took me years to develop my own approach to meditation, so I've learned the official styles aren't always the best on an individual level. But I'm sure you're aware of that, too.

[lycanthropeful]

So, in my eyes, it's not such a silly technique after all.
(*imagines buying a book entitled: "Spinning in Chairs: Vertigo and Unlocking Your Mind!"*)

Or possibly "Office Depot: A Hypnotist's Hidden Haven."

I actually thought Vagrant's technique was rather intriguing. I get terrible motion sickness, so I know that method is not for me. I've only experienced one "mental" shift, and it wasn't even a shift. I couldn't feel any claws sprouting or tail growing, but the effect and conviction of the feeling that I had, being a wolf (since I mentally told myself to feel that way), was so profound that it removed a cramp I had in my lung that whole day, and I calmed down from a state of sheer rage. All while just sitting on a couch, cramped, sitting Indian-style. There's no limit to what your mind can make you do, apparently.

[Vagrant]

outward: I did give it my best shot though, as I do try to be honest, even with personal questions.

Also: I feel like a quack, and as peculiar as it is, it's empowering! I've heard that term applied to practitioners before, and usually it's not that they don't get results, but that their methods are a bit suspect. The more off the wall they are, the more likely they are to be considered a quack.

In this instance, as far as this particular topic goes, I'm the resident quack!

I read your post with earnest interest though, outward, and that's actually a very interesting and Scientific way to look at it. You're very right about vertigo and orientation as I remember too, it's just a matter of depriving the mind of familiar surroundings, and as you said, without them, it tries to draw up its own. When the mind does that, it's very easy to subtly shape what it creates.

I know it may sound absurd, but it's actually a really interesting and stimulating experience, and I hope that after all this others will be tempted to give it a go. If they feel silly for it, then all the better, because the best things in life are more than a little bit ridiculous, and this is no exception. But the reasons for why it works are there, and I think you covered them admirably, outward.

(*imagines buying a book entitled: "Spinning in Chairs: Vertigo and Unlocking Your Mind!"*)

If such a book ever did exist, I'd have at least ten copies.

Anyway, to wrap up, I thought that would be the case, but with all the reading, experimenting, and variations on thereof I'll be doing, I'm bound to learn something! And that's the important thing.

lycanth: The thing of it is that it's possible to trick your mind to believe a great deal of things, as far as behavioural conditioning goes.

For example, if a neighbour's canine barks at you for years when walking up the path to your house, were you to move house you may still occasionally hear a bark, even if there's no accompanying Dog to tie it to.

All waking results of hypnosis and mind-tampering work in the same way, there are many things it can do but some things are harder than others. Altering visual perception whilst waking for example is really hard. There have been those who have reported some success, where they've seen were-creatures out of the corner of their eye and looked to find it was only an illusion, or saw themselves in the mirror that way for a fraction of a second, but it's rare.

However, convincing oneself that one is a Werewolf is much easier, just losing oneself to the feral mindset and all, as that's how clinical lycanthropy works, and a controlled form of clinical lycanthropy is probably what everyone hopes for with the M-shift, it's just the feeling of being a Werewolf, the passing thought that for a moment, you are the Wolf.

Similarly, convincing oneself that one has a tail is easier than most of the things one could try, too. The reason it's made easy is that it's difficult to see one's backside, and it's simple enough to convince the analytical element of the mind of the possibility of having a tail there. Argue with it enough, and the occasional sensation kicks in. Again, I've read mixed reports though.

But for anyone who has had any success with, well--what I can only literally call hacking themselves, they already know how wonderful of an experience it is, they wouldn't need me to tell it.

Really though, I'm just trying to convince people who haven't tried it to give it a go.

I'm such an instigator. <.<

"Office Depot: A Hypnotist's Hidden Haven."

Also a good book title!

[outwarddoodles]

Actually, Vagrant, you're making me feel like less of a quack, because I never get a chance to have these sort of conversations with people. I think I'll be courageous enough to tell you what I did last night.


I actually experimented with your technique last night; which is who I acquired a new perspective on it. After turning out all my lights, and discovering ways to muffle all the noise in my room as possible (typically I concentrate to my fan or analog clock, but this time I went with neither.), I spun myself around a couple of times in my computer chair (I have a computer chair in my room, even though I have no computer there...). At first I decided it wouldn't work, considering that my chair wasn't loose enough to continue spinning for an indefinite amount of time, and I kept having to press my hand up against the wall -- which would unintentionally cause me to orient my location relative to my room.

But, after I was sure I stopped revolving, a wonderful thing happened: I still felt like I was rotating. Although I was sitting still, I began 'rotating' in the opposite direction. I finally began focusing on a sliver of light before me, which began to stretch and contort for awhile. Unfortunately, by the time I felt the sleep paralysis creeping in, my position in my chair caused my lungs to feel constricted; So I stoop up, stumbled around (my body felt amazingly buoyant) and managed to locate my light switch.

The amazing part of the experience was that, although I've practiced sensory deprivation before, because I always sit on my bed in the identical position, I'm always aware of my surroundings. In this case, I had no idea which way I was facing (which is something I can typically do, even with my eyes closed.), and thus was completely oblivious to my surroundings. The best part: I felt disembodied.

So yes, Vagrant, you've really hit upon something; and it's a shame I have to return to usual life on Monday, because I wish I had more opportunities to experiment with this.

Lycanthropeful, and Vagrant: As for mental shifting, I identify both as a therianthrope (of the feline variety) and I regularly practice meditation -- some I may have a predisposition to experience mental and phantom shifts than either of you, although I've been capable of shifting to 'other' animals.

So, when it comes to shifting, I've learned to identify scenarios throughout my day where I naturally shift, reach an altered state, or begin meditating (this is also how I taught myself to meditate.) Needless to say, 'shifting' is not limited to taking on the mentality of an animal -- it can happen naturally to anyone who focuses on one thing which a certain amount of intensity. For example, any gamer will tell you they 'get in the zone' when they've played long enough. I've heard base ball players claim that time seems to 'slow down' right before they swing their bat. And, rather recently, I've learned that this occurs to me while driving (I still got my temps, so I’m still green behind the wheel). They're all examples of altered mental states.

So my personal advice: Try to identify these scenarios, and try to recreate or focus on those sensations when trying to intentionally shift. In fact, I just finished a rather intense and lengthy game of Tetris just moments ago, I had some phantom limbs accompanying me.


Also, as for therianthropic/shamanistic shifting: Stretching and exercise works wonders. I'm sure it has something to do with the endorphins. It’s also very difficult for me to shift with any tension in my muscles.

Similarly, convincing oneself that one has a tail is easier than most of the things one could try, too. The reason it's made easy is that it's difficult to see one's backside, and it's simple enough to convince the analytical element of the mind of the possibility of having a tail there. Argue with it enough, and the occasional sensation kicks in. Again, I've read mixed reports though.

Another interesting thing to note here: From my own experience, it's easier to retain a phantom limb as long as that limb does not contradict the sensations given to you by your human body. Within the therianthropic community, tails and ears are the most common phantom limb sensations -- and for good reason. Having a paw, but being capable of flexing your fingers, tends to destroy the illusion.

[Kaebora]

I bought a new monitor. It's the first flat panel LCD monitor I've ever owned, and it makes me want to smash both of my CRT monitors. I'm going to melt my eyes out of my skull with this thing, especially when I buy a second one for proper dual monitor LCD action.

Yet somehow I'm still $400 in credit debt. *sigh* guess I'll have to pay that first.

[Vagrant]

outward: Well, my ears are always open to such. So here's an idea; a thread could be created so we could all natter about things of this nature, various forms of psyche shifts, methods for mind-tampering, better dreaming, and whatnot. There's three of us already (you, I, and lycanth), and more might join in.

I have a sterling idea, actually! Once we've done a little talking on the subject, we might even go about gathering any data we've gained, correlating it, tidying it and whatnot, so we can put it up on the Pack wiki!

As for your experience with what I shall colloquially call "The Chair Method", as a practitioner of it I can say that's perfectly normal. My earliest experiences with it lead to nausea and a complete lack of direction, once it was particularly bad, of a "WHICH WAY IS UP?!" variety, and I crashed into a nearby desk. One adapts to it though, and becomes accustomed to the vertigo, and that's when things start getting really interesting.

Anyway, after my crazy experiments, how can my mind be closed to anything? I am actually going to try to be observant to see whether I do trigger an altered mind-state that doesn't involve the chair at any point, if I catch onto anything, I'll be sure to document it and share. My curiosity has been piqued now, and my curiosity is a terribly insatiable beast of a thing.

[outwarddoodles]

Vagrant: I'll leave it up to you to create a new thread; you seem to be the conversation starter here.

As for the wiki: I'm absolutely sure that shamans and spiritual shapeshifting will be mentioned there. It's nearly obligatory considering the influence of totems and such to the contemporarey werewolf model.

[Vagrant]

I may start the topic, but I doubt I'll do anything more than that, because I'm 100.02% sure that when it comes to this, you are the most knowledgeable person I know, and therefore would make the perfect thread sensei!

I know that I'll probably end up pestering you for more info, and others might too! So I hope that's alright.

Right then... when I pluck up the courage to do so, I'll create a thread. I feel a little daunted by this, because there's every chance this could be huge; usually I pick topics that are inconsequential so they'll drop to the bottom of the pile, something of a greater magnitude takes working up to.

But I shall get to it!

(Vagrant is heard muttering something about his lack of confidence and 'bloody omega complexes' before wandering off.)

[outwarddoodles]

Oh no no no no, I am NOT an expert on this. I have absolutely no scientific training or expertise outside of my own personal dabbling experience.

[vrikasatma]

In this case, I had no idea which way I was facing (which is something I can typically do, even with my eyes closed.), and thus was completely oblivious to my surroundings. The best part: I felt disembodied.

Outwarddoodles:
You've basically done what the Dervishes do. They're a mystical sect of Islam — good guys, I know several. They spin to "connect with God," which out-of-body experience can be considered analogous to.

I used to love spinning wildly when I was a kid. My parents made me stop because they were afraid I'd clip someone and get them sued, so I didn't do it for a long time. But when I met a Sufi (who incidentally practiced Shiva Dancing as well), and learnt how to control my motion, I took it back up.

You don't need the robes; that's window-dressing. And the conical hat...well, it's good for keeping your balance but it's not necessary either. Basically you place your feet at right angles, right foot pointing towards 3 o'clock. Extend your right hand out, palm upwards, and left hand out, palm down. Don't worry about extending them, just find your balance and whatever's comfortable and can be held indefinitely.

And — go! Not necessarily fast, you want to maintain your balance effortlessly. Just find whatever speed you're comfortable with and maintain it. Keep your feet at right angles and stay balanced.

There's a local Dervish group that includes women, so no worries about "sexism." And the Sufis are good guys. They're the Muslim equivalent of Benedictine monks.

[Vagrant]

So we won't have this thread drifting like the Mary Celeste (thanks to RedEye for that one), I've sectioned off the discussion on mind-related things into its own thread.

So, lycanth and outward, feel free to stop by and speak yer mind, there!

[lycanthropeful]

Gah! I'm leaving for college again in about an hour!

Will someone lend a paw and save me? I don't wanna go, I don't wanna go! (And yet I kind of do...)

[Aki]

I bought a new monitor. It's the first flat panel LCD monitor I've ever owned, and it makes me want to smash both of my CRT monitors. I'm going to melt my eyes out of my skull with this thing, especially when I buy a second one for proper dual monitor LCD action.

Yet somehow I'm still $400 in credit debt. *sigh* guess I'll have to pay that first.

I got one of those for Christmas and whole-heartedly agree on how much more awesome they are.

My poor computer desk - which has a shelf for the monitor - was getting a bit saggy from that heavy a** CRT. Lightweight, crystal clear quality, thin profile, oh yes indeed. LCD is the way to be.

Gah! I'm leaving for college again in about an hour!

Will someone lend a paw and save me? I don't wanna go, I don't wanna go! (And yet I kind of do...)

I gotta back soon too. I kinda don't wanna but at the same time I do as family tends to grate on one's nerves after a while. Also, lack of chores, booyah.

[Malignant-Librarian]

@Wingie: Oh. /space cadet

@Midnight: That song is pretty awesome. xD

"It's not my fault that I don't belong..."

@Vagrant: o-o Oh, lord. I'm trying SO hard to follow your discussion with Outward, but it's becoming more and more difficult as the use of 'big words' increases...

(Plus, nervous of participating because this coincides directly with certain aspects of her spirituality.)

@Kaebora: Ooh. That sounds positively juicy. Dual monitor action, rawr. ~humps monitors~ My dad won an enormous computer monitor from a random drawing at work, and it was so huge we thought it was a television. o-o

The family was going, "Hurrah! We won a TV!" Until we realized it wasn't a TV.

@Vrika: Oh my lord. That sounds so fun.

@Saxy: Uwah, will save you! Get on AIM and we can RP the college awaaaaaaay!

@Aki: Lightweight, crystal clear quality, thin profile...

~fap fap fap fap fap~

Also, college... do not want. T_T ANIMATION CLASS STARTS NEXT SEMESTER, THOUGH. EXPECT TO SEE LOTS OF STUFF. [insert 'hi guys' face here]

[Vagrant]

I don't buy that for a second, Jingles. You likely have a much more intricate vocabulary than I do, and past posts of yours have shown that to be the case, I think!

I can understand your hesitation to share aspects of your spirituality though, that's a very, very personal thing and it can be hard to talk about. So I respect your decision there fully. If you ever do change your mind and want to have a bit of a chat with us about it though, feel free to stop by the thread, eh? Just leaving the offer open.

[Wingman]

Space cadet?