This Is My Idea Of a WEREWOLF

[berylwolf]

Going back to the original post, the idea about the claws is a valid point! I like that idea, giving purpose and structure to a detail that would otherwise be overlooked. But it makes sense!

But to get back on topic, I'm not sure being simply 'mean' would justify that action from the WW, I'm sure that sort of action, killing and all, would cut it perhaps 200-300 years ago were towns were sparse, communication was extremely limited, and technology was quaint.

Given today's current advances in communication (i.e. media, cell phones, etc.), I would agree with Silent H. that any WW would try to avoid any sort of human contact, understanding the greater risks involved with being exposed in this day in age.

I think an advantage of modern times is that most people are dismissive of superstitious sounding stuff like voodoo, witchcraft, ufos, vampires, and esp. WWs. It's interesting but not very plausible to think that such things actually exist. People are so willing to dismiss something that does not fit in there cute little boxes they call lives, or there understanding of the world around them. You might even say it's much easier to be a WW now-a-days, as long as no one gets hurt of course.

[Werewolfdragon]

To kitetsu
No offence intended ,however that has got to be the worst art I have ever seen. OUCH!!!
A little advice, if your trying to get people to visit your site, might I suggest posting some of your better art and throwing this kind of pictures in the trash???.

What does this have to do with "" Idea Of a Werewolf "" ? It's hurting my eyes... What in the world is it suppose to be???

Pretty bold statements from a guy with some of the most painful spelling and grammar on the forum. You might want to learn how to write above a 6th grade level before you go around pissing on other people's art... unless you want to embarrass yourself further.

Yes it is bad spelling, However you don't hear me gitting mad about being told that, on any of the post's I have made do you ? I never was very good at spelling. As for the picture, Maby if he would have gave a discription of the picture, I could have understood what it was a picture of ? Anyway maby I did word that wrong, I suppose I was in a bad mood. I used to be all over the "World Wide Web" four years ago. And when in a message board you keep to the topic, I guess things are done differently now days... Sorry

[Werewolfdragon]

Going back to the original post, the idea about the claws is a valid point! I like that idea, giving purpose and structure to a detail that would otherwise be overlooked. But it makes sense!

But to get back on topic, I'm not sure being simply 'mean' would justify that action from the WW, I'm sure that sort of action, killing and all, would cut it perhaps 200-300 years ago were towns were sparse, communication was extremely limited, and technology was quaint.

Given today's current advances in communication (i.e. media, cell phones, etc.), I would agree with Silent H. that any WW would try to avoid any sort of human contact, understanding the greater risks involved with being exposed in this day in age.

I think an advantage of modern times is that most people are dismissive of superstitious sounding stuff like voodoo, witchcraft, ufos, vampires, and esp. WWs. It's interesting but not very plausible to think that such things actually exist. People are so willing to dismiss something that does not fit in there cute little boxes they call lives, or there understanding of the world around them. You might even say it's much easier to be a WW now-a-days, as long as no one gets hurt of course.

I like your point of view, It would make since to avoid people, However how would you do that. Just as other animals are finding it harder to avoid humans, so wouldn't werewolves end up having the same problems???

[berylwolf]

I like your point of view, It would make since to avoid people, However how would you do that. Just as other animals are finding it harder to avoid humans, so wouldn't werewolves end up having the same problems???

WWs are not just "other animals" you see. I think we take them for granted. The image of a savage, snarling beast without capacity for reason has typically become a standard vision of what a werewolf is.

I honestly believe WWs are perfectly content being overlooked and underestimated. The symbolism of a humble man by day turning into a monster under the full moon has become an defining identity of WWs. But the humble man is a watcher, he understands his territory, he watches other people around him, and he tends to find places only he would know.

[Werewolfdragon]

First let me start by saying that up till now I have been testing you to see exactly
what kind of people are on this site, and I have to say I like what I have seen thus far !
For the most part you seem to stick up for each other, even though some of you do have a
habit of pointing out others flaws, you only do so in an attempt to help them correct them
instead of trying to be mean. For this reason I have decided to stay with this site for as
long as I have access to the internet. However I also feel that I must apologize for some of
my prior remarks, mean comments, and downright misleading behavior. This is not who I
am. Instead I am a loner by nature, a lone wolf if you will. I have never been a part of
much anything and have spent most of my life thus far learning as much as I can
concerning wolves, werewolves, and nature, both the spiritual and none-spiritual, the
light and dark aspects. I have also tried to learn as much as I can in the art of magick, for
the use of better understanding the moon, and the way of the Werewolf, for I hope to one
day reawaken the wolf within myself. You think me to be crazy ? If yes, then you are
right, I am crazy about wolves and werewolves, and the hope of one day reaching my
goal. As for my views on things I have had to self learn everything I know. This has made
some of my views seem to be way out there. This I cannot help. Instead I have to ask that
those of you who read any of my posts or replies please try to keep an open mind, both
when you read as well as when you reply, also please feel free to ask questions on
anything that has to do with my posts. for I was tough, " If one asks not, one will never
know. " and I will do my best to answer those questions, even if it takes me a while to do.
One must remember, what I know, say or do may not be the best or the worst, however it
is my point of view and though it may be flawed, at least I have said what was on my
mind so others may fill in the gaps, and repair the flaws within it. Even an old wolf still
learns new things through trial and error, or dies knowing they tried...

[Morkulv]

No offence, but you sound like somebody from a otherkin-forum.

[Werewolfdragon]

What's an otherkin-forum?

[Morkulv]

What's an otherkin-forum?

Well, I don't usually link to Wikipedia-articles, but this article explains in a nutshell what otherkin is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherkin

[Werewolfdragon]

What's an otherkin-forum?

Well, I don't usually link to Wikipedia-articles, but this article explains in a nutshell what otherkin is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherkin

Well based on the def. I can see how what I say would lead you to come to the conclustion that I sound like an otherkin.
I never knew there was a group like them. I do believe that there is more to me then meets the eye. However, this does not mean that in a priar life I was a werewolf. even though I have often wondered if this is not so. I am not even shure that I beleave in reincarnation. I was raised as a penacostal christian, however I am 26 and do not follow my upbringing. I am simply trying to find my true path to self happiness. Maby I will look into this Otherkin a little deeper to learn more about them. thank's... As for what I do believe in. I believe that everyone has the ability to become an animal at least in mind and thought. Does this mean that one should, No this would not be the right path for everyone. Do I think that I was a werewolf in another life? maby, I did have a native american tell me that my dream means that I was a shapeshifter In another life and the begining of this one. And that I had sealed the ability to do so away from myself, at a young age. this I know for shure. most would view this as me being crazy. But I have had one time where I went wild. during this time I was growling, phoming at the mouth. and became very strong. I was on all four's and was very mad. It was as though I had become a rabbid wolf. I saw what it was I was doing however, I did not care. all I cared about was gitting away from my current situation. I was not thinking I simply was doing. and as a resault, I came only a fraction of an inch away from hurting someone badly. by taking a chunk out of his leg and foot. thinkfully I regained control of myself before I ever touched him. however, after this happened there was not a single person who messed with me. Instead they were kind to me, mostlikly out of fear. but I didn't care. this involintary reaction that I had, got people to quit torchering me. So I know that there is more to me then meets the eye. and I intend to find out how to control what ever it is. also while I am on the subject. this is one thing I have ran across that I agree with except, I beleave that their is a way to effect a real outword change or shift, the following link has to do with the occalt you have been for-warned http://www.churchofsatan.org/werewolf.html this link will take you to a page on werewolfism and the study of Lyncanthropy. this kind of stuff is very hard to locate, so for those who want nothing to do with the occault. I am sorry but this has a preaty good discription and point of view concerning Werewolves. and Lyncanthropy.

[Berserker]

I believe that everyone has the ability to become an animal at least in mind and thought.

Humans are already animals. We're mammals with a very long history as instinctual hunters who once lived in the wilderness. Our oldest ancestors were creatures with fur, claws, fangs, tails, and snouts; to this day, we can see the remnants of these things in ourselves.

I believe that to accompany these physical traits, a psychological, genetic trace of our ancient existence also remains. When these "otherkin" claim to feel the influence of an animal spirit within themselves, I believe what they're really feeling is a primordial aspect of the human condition: pre-existing, and very real. Our rational minds--filtered through the crystalline context of civilization--are unable to fully understand our strange sliver of wildness, and so we unconsciously grasp for a symbol to explain it. Which symbols can we most identify with? Other animals, of course! Beasts strode alongside us through the millenia, helping to shape our behavior, even as they became both our prey, and our companions.

The term "otherkin" is a misnomer, since there really isn't an "other" involved. The otherkin realization is in actuality a cleverly masked manifestation of the self. A genetic phenomenon turned spiritual through a lack of comprehension.

To slash, to bite and claw, on all fours, growling, drooling, lashing out like a wild beast? Oh what myths we conjure to explain our behavior away conveniently... animal spirits, shapeshifters, reincarnation, lycanthropy! We don't want to come face to face with our own primal reality, that within us, a feral human instinct has survived eons of self-domestication.

[Werewolfdragon]

I believe that everyone has the ability to become an animal at least in mind and thought.

Humans are already animals. We're mammals with a very long history as instinctual hunters who once lived in the wilderness. Our oldest ancestors were creatures with fur, claws, fangs, tails, and snouts; to this day, we can see the remnants of these things in ourselves.

I believe that to accompany these physical traits, a psychological, genetic trace of our ancient existence also remains. When these "otherkin" claim to feel the influence of an animal spirit within themselves, I believe what they're really feeling is a primordial aspect of the human condition: pre-existing, and very real. Our rational minds--filtered through the crystalline context of civilization--are unable to fully understand our strange sliver of wildness, and so we unconsciously grasp for a symbol to explain it. Which symbols can we most identify with? Other animals, of course! Beasts strode alongside us through the millenia, helping to shape our behavior, even as they became both our prey, and our companions.

The term "otherkin" is a misnomer, since there really isn't an "other" involved. The otherkin realization is in actuality a cleverly masked manifestation of the self. A genetic phenomenon turned spiritual through a lack of comprehension.

To slash, to bite and claw, on all fours, growling, drooling, lashing out like a wild beast? Oh what myths we conjure to explain our behavior away conveniently... animal spirits, shapeshifters, reincarnation, lycanthropy! We don't want to come face to face with our own primal reality, that within us, a feral human instinct has survived eons of self-domestication.

I like your way of thinking you understand what it is I am saying! In truth this is how I believe. I just haven't been able to put it into words as good as you just did.

[Werewolfdragon]

We are, what we are not. For we have hidden from ourselves, and in braced an illusion of ourselves.

We have become distracted by the things around us, and have lost touch with nature. In doing so we have lost ourselves, and have forgot who we really are. This is a fact, and as such should be explored...

Some of us, have regained a portion of ourselves, enough to make us wonder what or who we really are. socitity would tell us that we are" Reverting " into an animal. I say that we are progressing back into who we really are.

[Scott Gardener]

The werewolf is kind of like a Rorschach inkblot test, in that how one chooses to interpret the idea says a lot about a person--at least if the person has given any thought about werewolves at all, beyond knowing the popular concept of the guy afraid of full moons and silver bullets. Though we have reoccurring patterns and ideas, and we even have names for these ideas, the interpretations are still very individualistic.

One reoccurring theme is that of shifting form to reconnect with nature. We can point out the science, that humans are still biologically animals. (Just look at all the billboards, TV ads, and magazines that so constantly attempt to cater to the male sex drive.) We can rationalize that so much human motivation can be paralleled with other animals' "instinctual behavior," that our capacity to love, to hate, to experience happiness, to be afraid, or to hurt is proving to be a common feature of the animal kingdom, and human civilization is only beginning to come to terms with the damage it is doing to other animals by pretending to know otherwise. We can remind ourselves that our need for food, water, and oxygen, and our constant drives to reproduce or to sort ourselves out into hierarchies is also very animalistic.

But, in spite of all this, some of us still feel a sense of detachment. Perhaps this separation was a deliberate one, an attempt to make us feel somehow superior. But, this notion of an assumed divine right of dominion is, comparatively speaking, a short-lived one. It has been around for maybe two or three thousand years, whereas evidence suggests that for many times over that, quite probably for the overwhelming majority of human existence, our kind has thought of itself as an animal and lived quite comfortably with that idea. Or, perhaps they were catching on that we were not quite like the other animals, and they feared that we were losing something along the way. We predict, based on credible archaeology, that for a large swath of human ancestry, we were hunters, and many of us performed rites seeking to emulate other animals, in effect becoming them.

It could be that therianthropy is less a transient fad or meme brought about by the Internet, and is more a re-branding of a shared memory of a collective unconsciousness.

But, getting back to the inkblot metaphor: others may, when put on the spot, contrive a much more basal and monstrous image of werewolves that is less Jungian and more Freudian in character. 19th and 20th century depictions of werewolves seem to be largely based on a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde principle, of the kind and passive human and the basal monster motivated only to vent raw anger, destroying anything in its path. This image, I feel, says a lot about the repression experienced by the society that created the myth.

Part of what makes werewolves so effective an inkblot is that (as far as we know) they are fictional, that there are no real, literal werewolves who seem willing to come forward and refute our various interpretations. However, human cultures have often chosen not to let the facts of the matter get in the way of their fantasies. We need only look at regular wolves to see similar images of everything from mystical brothers and spiritual mentors to bloodthirsty monsters and sexual predators, all derived from interpretations of a fellow mammal species that, in terms of social hierarchies and ecological niche, is one of the ones on this planet most like us.

[Aki]

We are, what we are not. For we have hidden from ourselves, and in braced an illusion of ourselves.

We have become distracted by the things around us, and have lost touch with nature. In doing so we have lost ourselves, and have forgot who we really are. This is a fact, and as such should be explored...

Some of us, have regained a portion of ourselves, enough to make us wonder what or who we really are. socitity would tell us that we are" Reverting " into an animal. I say that we are progressing back into who we really are.

I don't think we've lost touch at all. We're a tool using species: science, society and technology are our domain much as fangs, claws and wilderness are the domain of the rest of the world's creatures.

[Berserker]

We are, what we are not. For we have hidden from ourselves, and in braced an illusion of ourselves.

We have become distracted by the things around us, and have lost touch with nature. In doing so we have lost ourselves, and have forgot who we really are. This is a fact, and as such should be explored...

Some of us, have regained a portion of ourselves, enough to make us wonder what or who we really are. socitity would tell us that we are" Reverting " into an animal. I say that we are progressing back into who we really are.

I don't think we've lost touch at all. We're a tool using species: science, society and technology are our domain much as fangs, claws and wilderness are the domain of the rest of the world's creatures.

I think the flaw in your argument is equating nature to culture. "Science," "society," and "technology" are all modern sociological concepts completely separate from the evolutionary idea of being a "tool using species." We have the instinct to use tools, along with apes and anteaters, just as carnivores have the instinct to use fangs and claws; but these inclinations are intrinsic. The naked islander tribe who hunts with spear and bone does not share the same "domain" as we, a culture peering through digital scopes to shoot wolves from helicopter length. Yet both are the same species. The former tribe does not require an artificial sense of "progress" to survive... nor would he be enhanced by it.

In the tiny fraction of time that humanity has become acquainted with the aforementioned concepts--really only a few thousand years out of hundreds of thousands--most living cultures have grown accustomed to decimating the natural world, expanding recklessly, veritably unchecked; for all our science, we no longer understand or meaningfully interact with the wilderness around us. Even our very language--once comprised of sounds and symbols which directly correlated to objects in nature--is now mostly an abstraction, severed and distinct.

On the contrary, not only has the modern man lost touch with nature, being out of touch is something he must do to maintain his identity. His morality demands it: nature is chaotic and full of things that can kill him, so it must be dominated. Take a look at a lawn, or a park. It is nature cubed, neatly crafted, a synthetic design; there is no chaos there, no overgrowth, trees, weeds, vines, and things that can kill you. There is no ideological difference between a lawn and a skyscraper. If that's not being out of touch, I don't know what is.

[Werewolfdragon]

I don't think we've lost touch at all. We're a tool using species: science, society and technology are our domain much as fangs, claws and wilderness are the domain of the rest of the world's creatures.

I cannot agree with you, entirely. Yes we are a tool using race, however in the process of developing the tools of today we have lost the use of the tools we already had. I say this because there are many levels of tools. One level of tool is each other ( A Pack ) and we as a race no longer even regard this as a tool. we see this as nothing more than a bother. If this was not so then the world we live in today would be a better place to live in. Today most everyone's point of view is, ''Every one for themselves.'' Even in families this remains the same most of the time. A wolf would watch out for each member of the pack. they hunt, and live as one. We of today do not do this anymore, when things get tough we run. Now this is not to say that even a wolf would not know when to back off to live another day. But they would at least give it their all. We the people are divided even though we are so close together. another tool that we have lost is our ability to sense danger even when we cannot see it. due to our upbringing we learn that we can't do this. we are told and tell ourselves that that feeling is just our minds playing tricks on us, and soon we began to believe this lie. Then theirs our natural senses, our hearing, our smell, our sight, our taste, and our touch. these we have weakened, and all but destroyed. our hearing we have destroyed by using " Tools " such as headphones. and loud equipment such as the roar of an engine. among many other damaging devices or tools. our smell has been clogged simply by breath the now contaminated air, The air is contaminated due to the use of our " Wondrous tools " that we have created. our taste isn't what it once was either. because of all the poisons and non-natural things we put in or on our food. All tools meant to help our food grow faster, because we all live longer then we once would have. our touch has most likely also been effected, however at this time I cannot see how. The fact is we have lost the very thing that these tools were meant to help us with, Ourselves, and our Pack. We have always had all the tools we would have ever needed, we were born with them and we will live with them tell the day we die, this is a fact. and one of the greatest tools we have is our minds. way better than any computer. however. due to these so called "Tools" we do not develop our minds nearly as well as we could. instead we rely on a computer to do the thinking for us. what is a computer? A computer is any device that has been programmed by someone else to perform a task so we don't have to. By us not using our brains to figure everything out for ourselves we have as a people, all but lost it. No i am not saying we shouldn't seek advice, all I am saying is when we seek advice, make sure it is truly advice. and not the answers to that witch we seek. In my opinion it would be better to go back to being animals In every way, this means in all ways of being or as the wolf is within a pack. then to continue down this path we are now on... Embrace the animal within.

I could go on and on however this is to long already.

[Aki]

I think the flaw in your argument is equating nature to culture. "Science," "society," and "technology" are all modern sociological concepts completely separate from the evolutionary idea of being a "tool using species." We have the instinct to use tools, along with apes and anteaters, just as carnivores have the instinct to use fangs and claws; but these inclinations are intrinsic. The naked islander tribe who hunts with spear and bone does not share the same "domain" as we, a culture peering through digital scopes to shoot wolves from helicopter length. Yet both are the same species. The former tribe does not require an artificial sense of "progress" to survive... nor would he be enhanced by it.

1. Who the hell uses a digital-scope equiped weapon-armed helicopter to hunt? Because I'm sure the Military would be rather interested in how you acquire such hardware.
2. Since when has progress not enhanced survival? The human lifespan has more than doubled as a result of progress. Agriculture along has increased our ability to have large pppulations by many times - without it humanity's population ceiling would be around half a million.

In the tiny fraction of time that humanity has become acquainted with the aforementioned concepts--really only a few thousand years out of hundreds of thousands--most living cultures have grown accustomed to decimating the natural world, expanding recklessly, veritably unchecked; for all our science, we no longer understand or meaningfully interact with the wilderness around us. Even our very language--once comprised of sounds and symbols which directly correlated to objects in nature--is now mostly an abstraction, severed and distinct.

It happened until people realized exactly how much damage was being done - the scope of it was beyond us. Communication was not very good for a very long time and there was not much thought given to the damage to the outside world because back then man was less ruled by science and more by superstition, like the ones that Wolves Are Evil or such.

Nowadays we realized what's been done and many are working to reverse or retard the damage wrought.

On the contrary, not only has the modern man lost touch with nature, being out of touch is something he must do to maintain his identity. His morality demands it: nature is chaotic and full of things that can kill him, so it must be dominated. Take a look at a lawn, or a park. It is nature cubed, neatly crafted, a synthetic design; there is no chaos there, no overgrowth, trees, weeds, vines, and things that can kill you. There is no ideological difference between a lawn and a skyscraper. If that's not being out of touch, I don't know what is.

A lawn isn't about safety or such. It's about looking nice and being utilitarian. It's also about caring for the plants because in such a setting they need caretakers as they are without the ebb and flow of the wild. We don't do the same to the wild because it doesn't need that.

ASide from the occasional brushfire that is started up by humans to reduce brush and keep truly massive fires - like the ones that occaisonally plague California - from starting up. This is nothing new either, the Indians themselves did it.

I cannot agree with you, entirely. Yes we are a tool using race, however in the process of developing the tools of today we have lost the use of the tools we already had. I say this because there are many levels of tools. One level of tool is each other ( A Pack ) and we as a race no longer even regard this as a tool. we see this as nothing more than a bother.

What? Nonsense.

Society requires use of each other to survive and the first thing an employer will look for in a potential employee is the ability to work well with others. Being incapable of such tends to lead to bad places - look what happens to War Vets who's PSTD renders them incapable of interacting with people due to flashbacks or a near-instinctive urge to fight because someone looks too much like the people they spent years fighting and killing.

Even in families this remains the same most of the time. A wolf would watch out for each member of the pack. they hunt, and live as one. We of today do not do this anymore, when things get tough we run. Now this is not to say that even a wolf would not know when to back off to live another day. But they would at least give it their all. We the people are divided even though we are so close together.

Some families are dysfunctional, this is true. But not all of them are.

This "Pack" you speak of is exactly why people are divided by the way. Just as wolves divide into packs, so does humanity. Their packs just have names like "America" or "Britain" or maybe "Christian" or "Black" or ...well, any group you can think of. People can (and will) form their own "packs" along any lines they see fit to draw.

another tool that we have lost is our ability to sense danger even when we cannot see it. due to our upbringing we learn that we can't do this. we are told and tell ourselves that that feeling is just our minds playing tricks on us, and soon we began to believe this lie. Then theirs our natural senses, our hearing, our smell, our sight, our taste, and our touch. these we have weakened, and all but destroyed. our hearing we have destroyed by using " Tools " such as headphones. and loud equipment such as the roar of an engine. among many other damaging devices or tools. our smell has been clogged simply by breath the now contaminated air, The air is contaminated due to the use of our " Wondrous tools " that we have created. our taste isn't what it once was either. because of all the poisons and non-natural things we put in or on our food. All tools meant to help our food grow faster, because we all live longer then we once would have. our touch has most likely also been effected, however at this time I cannot see how.

Ahah, no, not really. There are means to judge the sensitivity of one's senses (like, of course, the tests optomotrists use to see if you've got 20/20 or 20/200 vision). Only those who do not protect their ears when engaging in noisy activity suffer hearing lost. Damage to hearing is not a genetic trait - damage cannot be passed down. Someone who lost the hearing in their ear from listening to too-long rock or because a grenade went off too-close for comfort won't pass this on to their offspring.

Our smell has always sucked. Well to the human race, we use our eyes here, not our noses. It's why we have fancy color vision and limited low-light functionality as well as long-range vision and incredible visiual clarity.

It's not much different from, say, an Eagle. They have incredible vision - a bird of prey needs it - but lessened senses in other fields.

The fact is we have lost the very thing that these tools were meant to help us with, Ourselves, and our Pack. We have always had all the tools we would have ever needed, we were born with them and we will live with them tell the day we die, this is a fact. and one of the greatest tools we have is our minds. way better than any computer.

Only at thinking.

No organic mind could ever compare to the sheer computational power of a machine. They can multiply two 7 digit numbers in the time it takes for you to read and comprehend that you're reading numbers.

Not to mention computers enable things such as the Internet, a medium that allows the potential for infinite, uncontrolled and world-wide communication. A medium for the ultimate "Pack". One of Humanity rather than of a subset of it.

due to these so called "Tools" we do not develop our minds nearly as well as we could. instead we rely on a computer to do the thinking for us. what is a computer? A computer is any device that has been programmed by someone else to perform a task so we don't have to. By us not using our brains to figure everything out for ourselves we have as a people, all but lost it.

Uh, no. A computer simply performs certain activities the mind is not suited for better. Computers are Idiot-Savants. They provide supreme number-crunching and data-mining capability.

In short, they take out the menial and slow tasks so humanity can shift through the data and numbers for whatever meaning they're looking for.

Not to mention that the programmer has to use his brain in a number of ways to even write the program. You have to figure out what you need, how you're going to code it, where you're going to code it, etc.

And then there's the wonderful fun of dealing with bugs or simple but easily missed errors.

(Java, I'm looking at you! Case sensitivity is the devil!)

No i am not saying we shouldn't seek advice, all I am saying is when we seek advice, make sure it is truly advice. and not the answers to that witch we seek. In my opinion it would be better to go back to being animals In every way, this means in all ways of being or as the wolf is within a pack. then to continue down this path we are now on... Embrace the animal within.

I could go on and on however this is to long already.

That's just a funny saying "make sure it is truly advice and not the answers to which we seek".

What criterion could you possibly use for that? Those criterion would likely be biased toward's ones own inclination and thus you would get "answers to which we seek" instead of "true advice", whatever that is supposed to be.

[Berserker]

1. Who the hell uses a digital-scope equiped weapon-armed helicopter to hunt? Because I'm sure the Military would be rather interested in how you acquire such hardware.

Er what? I think you misread the sentence. Either way, this is a moot point, since my comment was on the culture of technology as a whole.

2. Since when has progress not enhanced survival? The human lifespan has more than doubled as a result of progress. Agriculture along has increased our ability to have large pppulations by many times - without it humanity's population ceiling would be around half a million.

I could argue that the human lifespan has doubled, but is now riddled with cancers and diseases of affluence... but that would be based on the incorrect assumption that all human cultures maintain the same life span, which they do not. In actuality, many of the cultures who attempt to sustain explosive populations with agriculture are crumbling, disease-ridden, and destitute. Life expectancy in some third world countries is as low as 40. Is it because these people have failed to "progress," or is it because progress has failed them? I believe it is clearly the latter.

Or I could merely point to cultures from 3000 years ago who routinely lived well into their 80s and 90s, like the Greeks, despite lacking nearly every modern convenience which we now take advantage of.

Actually, the life span of individuals shouldn't even be part of this argument. It's the life span of species that really matters, and with that regard, we love to threaten our own future, be it with war or environmental collapse. Even more shameful is the fact that we've been around for a tiny blip compared to other mammals, yet we've already started down a blind and dangerous road.

Still, your original argument seems to imply that scientific progress is part of human nature just as claws and fangs are part of other species' natures; that it is something universal. Again, your premise extracts the concept of "science" from the context of human culture, which doesn't work due to the highly varied nature of culture itself--as I've mentioned, tribes of people with comparatively minuscule levels of "progress," sometimes even zero progress over the course of thousands of years, manage to sustain themselves regardless. All wolves need teeth. Not all humans need plows.

It happened until people realized exactly how much damage was being done - the scope of it was beyond us.

From this statement, it almost seems like you would concede that humanity has been out of touch with nature. If not, then how was the "scope of it beyond us?" Populations who are in touch with nature don't demolish rain forests, throw away millions of tons of worthless junk, and contaminate entire oceans and then later say, "whoops, we screwed up." If the Western world was in touch with nature, it would not have founded the bulk of it's modern history on ideologies which conveniently give mankind "dominion" over every plant and animal. If we were really in touch with nature, we would know exactly what we were doing, and we would have more critical reasons for our actions other than petty materialism.

Communication was not very good for a very long time and there was not much thought given to the damage to the outside world because back then man was less ruled by science and more by superstition, like the ones that Wolves Are Evil or such.

There wasn't much "thought given to the damage to the outside world" because there wasn't much damage, period. It is no coincidence that the increased capabilities of communication between people, population growth, industrialization, and by extension the devastation of the natural world, correlate almost perfectly.

It's about looking nice and being utilitarian.

Exactly. This is proof that the modern human mindset is completely out of touch with nature. To all but a select few, nature is about "looking nice" and "being utilitarian." The modern mindset must assert control over nature; we must separate ourselves from anything wild, or else we start to realize that we aren't really Gods upon Earth after all. What was a back yard before a home owner got ahold of it? Was it a field? A forest? Was it chaotic and untouched, perhaps even an ecosystem?

We don't do the same to the wild because it doesn't need that.

Tell that to the designers of golf courses and parking lots.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Just to let everyone know, it's not illegal for a werewolf to wear a custom-fit suede suit and make use of one of those reinforced outdoor monstrosities that lets you go online in the middle of a Pika-populated mountain. Immoral, maybe, but illegal? Come on...

[Werewolfdragon]

First let me say, You GO Berserker. tell it like it is!
Then let me say. to Aki. It is not me that is wrong, what is wrong is you are misunderstanding what it is I am saying. Or you are Deluded and truly believe what you say is truth... Berserker, at least has touched upon what it was I was saying, all you have done is warp what I was saying...

Yes we are no longer in touch with nature. and no we are no longer a part of it. well some of us are. however not enough of us to make a difference. as for living longer. their was a reason that some people died and others lived. It was called the survival of the fittest. only the strong lived long. the weak, well returned to the earth. this is a fact of nature. and in humanity finding ways to defy this fact. we have disrupted the very balance of nature. the fact is that the earth is over populated, wildlife is being driven back till nothing is left. and all for what. soon their won't be anything left of nature, except the memories that are locked within the zoo's. and anyone who said otherwise doesn't know what they are saying or doesn't care.

As for werewolves, If you are a true werewolf. then you will see the truth in what it is I am saying. for I am not talking in simplicities, what I am saying has many different levels, just like nature. what I have been saying Is much deeper then first meets the eye. Now I am not saying that we should go and exterminate half the worlds population. I am just stating the fasts. and the fact is the damage has already been done In more ways then one. and on more then one level.

Take a single grain of sand, now lets say that grain is one tiny mistake, nothing very big. now take 5,000 of these minor mistakes, WOW! now you have enough sand to at least make a pile of sand that can be seen, However not all humanities mistakes have been minor ones, Now have they. theirs some mountains off in their also! and just one mountain can change the very face of nature. how many major mistakes have humans really made? how many minor mistakes have humans made? They do add up you know. Not all mistakes started out as mistakes alot simply started out as something meant to help make this a better world. only to make things worst. and yet humans have deceived themselves into thinking everything is just fine...When even the animals are beginning to have it harder, you know something is wrong...

Don't get me wrong, I do like technology, however I believe we have come to rely upon it more then is healthy for us to. and in the end this technology will be our complete undoing

In brace the animal within and see the truth of what I speak. It is time for us to return to our wild ways before it is to late.

[Leonca~]

Wow, this discussion has sure gone in some interesting directions.
I think there may be a problem with comparing human society too closely with wolf packs and saying that we used to be like that and should go back to it. For starters- a wolf pack is no utopian society. Life for wild wolves is brutal. An injured or sick wolf is always at risk of being abandoned by the pack if it cannot keep up or out competed for food if it cannot hold its place in the pack. Humans may be far from perfect, but as a species we really are quite altruistic. Probably more so than carnivores like wolves.
Secondly, if you really want to compare man to his ideal role in nature why not look at something more relevant to our actual pasts- examine the societies of primates like chimpanzees and baboons. We share far more social nature in common with them than we do with a carnivore like a wolf. Many primitive societies have idealized predatory animal for the traits they wish to possess, but they have always been distant from us.

[Berserker]

I think there may be a problem with comparing human society too closely with wolf packs and saying that we used to be like that and should go back to it. For starters- a wolf pack is no utopian society. Life for wild wolves is brutal. An injured or sick wolf is always at risk of being abandoned by the pack if it cannot keep up or out competed for food if it cannot hold its place in the pack. Humans may be far from perfect, but as a species we really are quite altruistic. Probably more so than carnivores like wolves.

Secondly, if you really want to compare man to his ideal role in nature why not look at something more relevant to our actual pasts- examine the societies of primates like chimpanzees and baboons. We share far more social nature in common with them than we do with a carnivore like a wolf. Many primitive societies have idealized predatory animal for the traits they wish to possess, but they have always been distant from us.

What this guy says, but with a caveat. Although Werewolfdragon is defending me here, I'm a little hesistant to jump into the boat of anthropomorphism as a tool for social comparison. However, the idea that we as a species learned many behavioral traits from animals like wolves, traits which eventually became instinctively ingrained in us (such as our ability to hunt cooperatively despite being a primarily scavenging species,) lends some credence to the wolf comparison.

Have you ever read Congo by Michael Crichton? Fascinating stuff, with a basic argument that apes are evolutionarily more intelligent than human beings, since they lack an artificial morality which prevents them from making decisions to save themselves.

Even though I understand his argument, honestly I was rather flummoxed when Aki suggested that we as modern humans are not out of touch with nature. To me it seems so obvious that we are. That does not mean, however, that I can make a sensible argument for a return to an integral, symbiotic relationship with nature on any kind of significant scale. It can't be done, not at this junction in Western society. The worldview must change, and nothing short of some kind of extinction-threatening event will be spur it on.

[Leonca~]

It’s been a while since I’ve read Congo. It will be interesting to see if I can catch that next time I re-read it.
Watching predators such as wolves (or lions if you want to go all the way back to Africa) might have been helpful with learning techniques, but it would not have been necessary to turn us into predators ourselves. Chimps and baboons, fellow omnivores, are quite efficient predators given the right circumstances (and in the case of chimps cooperative and somewhat altruistic with how they get and share their meat).

[Aki]

Blargh, you know what? Screeew the point-by-point stuff. I forgot how huge wall-of-texty that gets. Going to OM NOM NOM the entire thread up.

Anyways, I concede to Berserker - we have lost touch. I believe what I was originally arguing was more to the effect of "It's human nature to use tools" -> "Humanity is in touch with it's nature." Or at least what I meant to say and I managed to mangle it into "Humanity is in touch with nature" which I later tried to argue for and now realize is more than a little false.

However, I still think that going back one's "roots" is hardly the best option. Living like tribal folk may be possible, but it's hardly the best option either - greater technology brings greater potential - potential which can be used to the betterment of all.

Also;

soon their won't be anything left of nature, except the memories that are locked within the zoo's. and anyone who said otherwise doesn't know what they are saying or doesn't care.

No.

Even the least in touch with nature wouldn't want that to happen - there would be nothing to eat. And, oh god, no vacation spots! What would the CEOs of the world do!

(:grinp:)

[Werewolfdragon]

I sadly have to agree. there are to few of us who understand what needs to be done to repair the world. And ultimately this means that what needs to be done can't be done. Also some of what would need to be done would be Wrong! after all who can even begin to ask, even in the light of world over population, for people to give up their lives? No body can. Yes Most have grown weak, and in nature, weakness means death. this is natures way of keeping nature in balance with it's self.

However this is not something humanity shares it's views with. In the old days humans either lived or died, their was no in between, the strong lived on, and the weak simply returned to nature, such was the cycle of nature. However to ask anyone to return to this way of life is wrong. and would cause more harm in todays way of things then it would good.
As for me comparing humanity to that of wolves. I can't say why I do this. some would say I am crazy. Am I ? Maybe. However if you look at some of the brilliant people in history you would most likely find out that in their time they were viewed as crazy as well. Now these very same people are viewed as some of histories most brilliant minds.

To the closed minded person what I say is nothing more then crazy talk, but to a person that keeps an open mind, what I have to say makes perfect since. It is to the open minded being that I speak my words to, not those of closed minds.

As for chimps and apes, this is the teachings of evolution, isn't chimps and apes, herbivores. meaning they eat plants, yes sometimes they also eat bugs, however I have yet to find the human who eats bugs? and not cows and chickens etc. if we came from them then why do we eat the things we do? Besides, how many myths and legends are there about Were-chimps or were-apes? None that I know off. However their are millions of myths and legends about werewolves. and lets not forget dragons, their is entire race of people who hold dragons in high regard, but that is another topic not meant for this board.

As for werewolves. all long lasting Myths and legends have a basis in reality. or they would not last. and would eventually expire, grow old, then die out. I believe that werewolves are as real as anything else. and are a part of who we really are. I also believe that during the witch hunts, and the werewolf hunts talked about in history, that most of the people that had found the secret to change were killed. but not all. I also believe that the myths and the legends, and the movies all are a part of a huge plot by the Christians of that area to make us think that such things are not possible, that these things are nothing more thin a figment of our wildest imaginings...

This is what I believe. Regardless of what I believe however, What I guess really madders is what do you believe in. even if what you believe isn't the truth. this is all that madders in the end...

On one last note, the wolf is a family, or pack animal, yes they may not resemble us as well as the ape or the chimp in looks. however in their actions and their way of doing things they come the closest to us, more so then any other animal alive today. This in conjunction with history and all the myths and legends, lead me to believe that werewolves were real. and even to this day, still are. If we can find out their secret then I believe they can once again become more then just plain myth and legend. Working their way back into reality once more. The answer lies deep within us all, however it may well be harder to find for some then it is for others and some may find that they don't have what it takes to find it, or to be able to change. Even so, have you truly looked within yourself lately?

If one looks hard enough one will find the answers, so don't look if you really don't wish to know, for the answers may end up being more then you can handle.