Teeth and Bones - things that don't add up

[Aki]

I know reabsorbtion is wierd but it's the only thing that works in this case.

I find stuff falling off more weird than reabsorbation. Frankly, if faced with having a tail that would either be reabsorbed or fall off upon reversion after a shift, the falling off would weird me out more.

i'd prolly stare at it for a few minutes before grabbing it as a souvenier.

[Figarou]

I know reabsorbtion is wierd but it's the only thing that works in this case.

I find stuff falling off more weird than reabsorbation. Frankly, if faced with having a tail that would either be reabsorbed or fall off upon reversion after a shift, the falling off would weird me out more.

i'd prolly stare at it for a few minutes before grabbing it as a souvenier.

I rather have it still there without fur.

[Vilkacis]

I would have to agree: even though it is not the more realistic approach, I much prefer the idea of reabsorption. It is also well within the bounds of what the virus might do. Furthermore, I think it will be at least somewhat expected by the audience.

Sometimes it's just better to go with the more aesthetically pleasing approach.

-- Vilkacis

[Figarou]

I would have to agree: even though it is not the more realistic approach, I much prefer the idea of reabsorption. It is also well within the bounds of what the virus might do. Furthermore, I think it will be at least somewhat expected by the audience.

Sometimes it's just better to go with the more aesthetically pleasing approach.

-- Vilkacis

true. Even though I didn't like Ginger Snaps. I liked the idea of her having a tail in human form. When changing to gestalt form, it could lengthen. When the werewolf changes back to human, it'll shrink a little, but won't get fully reabsorbed. Thats how I like to see it.
Hiding it will be easy. Just wear pants and tuck it in.

[Apokryltaros]

I would have to agree: even though it is not the more realistic approach, I much prefer the idea of reabsorption. It is also well within the bounds of what the virus might do. Furthermore, I think it will be at least somewhat expected by the audience.

Sometimes it's just better to go with the more aesthetically pleasing approach.

-- Vilkacis

true. Even though I didn't like Ginger Snaps. I liked the idea of her having a tail in human form. When changing to gestalt form, it could lengthen. When the werewolf changes back to human, it'll shrink a little, but won't get fully reabsorbed. Thats how I like to see it.
Hiding it will be easy. Just wear pants and tuck it in.

Do you know how awkward and uncomfortable it is to sit in a chair when you have a tail?

[Figarou]

Do you know how awkward and uncomfortable it is to sit in a chair when you have a tail?

I've seen animals sit on thier tails. It doesn't bother them.

[Apokryltaros]

Do you know how awkward and uncomfortable it is to sit in a chair when you have a tail?

I've seen animals sit on thier tails. It doesn't bother them.

They don't sit for hours on end with their tails sandwiched between a wooden chair and their own bodies.

[WolvenOne]

Well there are chairs that have holes in the back.

[Aki]

Do you know how awkward and uncomfortable it is to sit in a chair when you have a tail?

I've seen animals sit on thier tails. It doesn't bother them.

They don't sit for hours on end with their tails sandwiched between a wooden chair and their own bodies.

You can just curl the tail to the side, or if you have a standard-computer-chair, there is little in the way of a 'back' and you can let it hand loose.

Same with most folding chairs, too.

[Scott Gardener]

We do have a few legends about werewolves retaining their tail in human form. Conversely, however, we have legends about werewolves as wolves without tails. I know, it's blatently herasy now, but in France, there's a legend for it. (No legend that says they're giant hairless rats, however. And, that wall-climbing Spider Man thing was a vampire thing.)

[Figarou]

You can just curl the tail to the side, or if you have a standard-computer-chair, there is little in the way of a 'back' and you can let it hand loose.

Same with most folding chairs, too.

You know, if humans did have tails, the chairs we sit in will be altered for our comfort.

A werewolf that retains the tail in human form will find a way to keep himself comfortable when sitting for a long time.

[Apokryltaros]

You know, if humans did have tails, the chairs we sit in will be altered for our comfort.

A werewolf that retains the tail in human form will find a way to keep himself comfortable when sitting for a long time.

By sitting on ottomans?

[Fenrir]

I gave it some thaught about the teeth thing and hears what I came up with, however sad and disapointing, there are two sets, one retracts into the gums while there is no use for them, like electric car window up down up down yes stupid told ya so

[Kzinistzerg]

Intriguing: the August Scientific American has a thingie on how teeth grow. if anyone has read it, they could probably explain it better than i. however, it about came down to the idea that growng teeth wouldn't be too hard if you had the original cells ready (ie, in other teeth) and in a place where they coudl get the correct nourishment (like, say, your gums) becaus ethe cellse 'know' where to go and what to do. with the wwolf's regen abilities, it could grow quite fast. this really only leaves otu the problem of where the teeth go when uo change back. perhaps they revert to a sort of ball of cell that awaits the chaneg again under the gum line?

[Trinity]

http://www.sciam.com/

Would be where to go for teh online refence I'm sure. Once they upload the August issue. Right now only the July Issue is online.

I actually like the idea of the 'stem cells' of teeth roots hiding in the jaw line. This also could be one of the telling signs of a werewolf. Imagine teh dentist's surprise to see 'teeth buds'... Heh.

Of course, If I remember rightly, in x-rays bone shows up more virbrantly then soft tissue. So in the jawline the 'buds' would be harder to spot. Unless of course the dentist invovled was very expereienced. Perhaps?

Also, it could be a 'growth' triggered by the virus. Attacking itself and mutating into a 'tooth grow' virus.., maybe something simialr to how cancer prompts insane levels of celluar growth. Maybe the virus attaches itself to existning tooth roots and 'grows' new teeth.

[Scott Gardener]

You don't have to put "stem cell" in quotes. That's pretty much what they would be.

Then again, perhaps you're right. They would have certain modifications, including the ability to specialize themselves abruptly into hardened teeth. They'd also have to be able to break the teeth down and revert back to a compressed storage form.

The ability to differentiate and de-differentiate, and possibly to divide (I have a hard time seeing cells that divide more than once in a minute or two) might limit how quickly one can shapeshift. Or, it could limit how quickly one can shift again after shifting. Once one shifts, it could take the cells at least, say, an hour or so of additional working metabolic overtime to get ready to be able to shift back.

So, if one does a slight shift and then back, it might take awhile for the teeth and tail to recede. For a big change, like human to Gestalt or wolf form, you might be committed for the next hour or so.

[Mercedes_Maxwell]

Essentially, anthropologists number the teeth by a quarter of the mouth (take half of your upper or lower teeth, as teeth are symmetrical).
In a quarter of our dentition, humans have 2 incisors, 1 canine, 2 premolars, and 3 molars (assuming you haven't had your wisdom teeth removed) on top and on bottom. (multiply that by four to get the total number of teeth - a total of 32 teeth).

The only problem with the statement that people ave 32 teeth in there mouth is me. I have just over 20. I was born with an incredibly small mouth and all my teeth don't fit. I just wanted to point out that not all people have 32 teeth.

[outwarddoodles]

Wow, they may pull four of mine which means I will end up with say 26-28 teeth. Yet you only have over 20? Thats a small mouth.

[Morkulv]

I would have to agree: even though it is not the more realistic approach, I much prefer the idea of reabsorption. It is also well within the bounds of what the virus might do. Furthermore, I think it will be at least somewhat expected by the audience.

Sometimes it's just better to go with the more aesthetically pleasing approach.

-- Vilkacis

true. Even though I didn't like Ginger Snaps. I liked the idea of her having a tail in human form. When changing to gestalt form, it could lengthen. When the werewolf changes back to human, it'll shrink a little, but won't get fully reabsorbed. Thats how I like to see it.
Hiding it will be easy. Just wear pants and tuck it in.

You've got my vote.

[Trinity]

Essentially, anthropologists number the teeth by a quarter of the mouth (take half of your upper or lower teeth, as teeth are symmetrical).
In a quarter of our dentition, humans have 2 incisors, 1 canine, 2 premolars, and 3 molars (assuming you haven't had your wisdom teeth removed) on top and on bottom. (multiply that by four to get the total number of teeth - a total of 32 teeth).

The only problem with the statement that people ave 32 teeth in there mouth is me. I have just over 20. I was born with an incredibly small mouth and all my teeth don't fit. I just wanted to point out that not all people have 32 teeth.

Aye, my wisdom teeth don't fit as my jaw both tilts inwards, and teh arch of it is very sharp. So I too have the issues with not having enough room. It got so bad that I had to have several root canals because the wisdom teeth weren't taken out right away and _cracked_ my other molars. Just enough for food to get it.., etc.., etc.., etc...

Sucks.

:/

[Jamie]

So far, with the teeth issue, I've mostly seen people debating the reabsorb vs. fall out question, discussing how teeth grow, and discussing the number of teeth in wolves and in humans. I haven't actually seen people debating what I think of as the heart of the issue, which is this: how exactly do we want the process to LOOK when we see it onscreen in Freeborn?

To simplify, there are three basic ways that werewolf tooth changes are portrayed:

1) Teeth fall out at the start of each shift and completely new teeth grow in. We've already mentioned this a bunch, and it is obvious how it would look. Pro: this is more biologically plausible, the simple and gross solution. Con: most of us seem to dislike it.

2) The teeth are reabsorbed into the body, partially broken down, then reformed into wolf teeth. A bunch of us have mentioned this way of changing, but virtually nothing has been said about how would it look. There are a couple of ways it could look that I can think of. One, the gums grow up over the teeth just long enough for the teeth to be broken down inside little chambers inside the gums (unseen by the audience, of course). Think about deer antlers when they are still growing and covered in velvet. Then the gums recede to reveal wolf teeth. The other way it could look is the teeth being broken down as they sit, without the gums growing up over them. The teeth could look very soft all of a sudden, each tooth like a wet sack, perhaps a slightly different color and semi-transparent, as a whirlwind of molecular activity inside forms the human tooth into a wolf tooth. As the process completes, the tooth becomes whiter, totally opaque, and perhaps a very thin peel comes away from the surface of each completed wolf tooth, curling and drying and falling away, something wispy like the "skin" that lines the inside of an eggshell.
Pro: this is not as gross as #1, and might really impress viewers if it were done just right. Con: the special effects for this might be too expensive and complicated to get it right

3) The standard "the teeth just transform" idea. Each tooth simply transforms into its lupine counterpart, most notably the fangs lengthening and the incisors becoming smaller. Perhaps we see a few new teeth slide out from the gums into the new spaces that open up as the muzzle lengthens, but, for the most part, we simply see teeth transform without any of the hoopla created by methods #1 and #2. This is hard to explain in biological terms, but it is asthetically pleasing, it is simple, and most viewers will expect it.

So, what do you want to see in the film? Do you have more ideas about how the process would look? My personal opinion is that we can only stretch biological realism so far in this movie. We are dealing with something inherently implausible, so if the viewer can swallow the whole werewolf, we can fudge a few details here and there if we want to go for a certain look. My vote is for #3, with some liking for #2 as well. I have no liking for #1.

[Lupin]

My vote is for #3, because, as you said, it's asthetically pleasing.

[outwarddoodles]

I think pure and simple falling out may be a more realistic approach, but I don't want to see it, nor have the werewolves deal with a pile of teeth on the floor. So I'd put in a vote for #3.

[Vilkacis]

3) The standard "the teeth just transform" idea. Each tooth simply transforms into its lupine counterpart, most notably the fangs lengthening and the incisors becoming smaller. Perhaps we see a few new teeth slide out from the gums into the new spaces that open up as the muzzle lengthens, but, for the most part, we simply see teeth transform without any of the hoopla created by methods #1 and #2. This is hard to explain in biological terms, but it is asthetically pleasing, it is simple, and most viewers will expect it.

I favor the third option as well. It's all well and good to try to make things as logical as possible, but it should never get to the point where it interferes with the dream. The first option is ugly and unappealing and the second seems the least realistic, but the third fits right in with what people will expect. It's no less plausible to say the teeth shift as it is to say bones lengthen -- that is: not plausible at all; however, given Werewolf, we get these for free, so I don't think the process should be anything particularly outstanding or noticeable.

-- Vilkacis

[Scott Gardener]

I also vote for three.

I have always pictured the pulp breaking into the dental and enamel enough to grow and shrink the teeth. Upon close inspection, you could see cracks and lines. But, you don't generally get a chance to do a close inspection, unless you're a seasoned shifter looking in a mirror, or in that daydream of yours, when you're about to be on the receiving end when your close friend decides to reveal his or her lycanthropy to you, and you pop the "bite me" question.