Reverse Werewolves?

[Set]

Wow this is all getting very...technical. A shift would almost have to not affect the baby, other than perhaps a change to and from wolf as its mother transforms. The reason really is a simple one. A species that can't reproduce well dies out. It doesn't matter how well evolved they may (or may not) be. If s*** cause things like miscarrages then the entire species would die out pretty quickly regardless of the "bite and change" factor.

[ShadowFang]

Wow this is all getting very...technical. A shift would almost have to not affect the baby, other than perhaps a change to and from wolf as its mother transforms. The reason really is a simple one. A species that can't reproduce well dies out. It doesn't matter how well evolved they may (or may not) be. If s*** cause things like miscarrages then the entire species would die out pretty quickly regardless of the "bite and change" factor.

Good point. However, I did some research. The gestation period for wolves is about sixty-three days. The gestation period for humans is, of course, nine months. So, since a werewolf is a combination of both human and wolf, the gestation period would most likely be the average of those two numbers which is roughly one hundread sixty seven days. (or about five and a half months)

Though, the female would have to stay in one form during the entire time. Because as stated before, if a female shifts, then anything in the womb would instantly die. Personally, I think it would be appropiate for the female to stay in werewolf form during the entire time. But yeah, what about her human life? Hmm....

[Figarou]

Wow this is all getting very...technical. A shift would almost have to not affect the baby, other than perhaps a change to and from wolf as its mother transforms. The reason really is a simple one. A species that can't reproduce well dies out. It doesn't matter how well evolved they may (or may not) be. If s*** cause things like miscarrages then the entire species would die out pretty quickly regardless of the "bite and change" factor.

Good point. However, I did some research. The gestation period for wolves is about sixty-three days. The gestation period for humans is, of course, nine months. So, since a werewolf is a combination of both human and wolf, the gestation period would most likely be the average of those two numbers which is roughly one hundread sixty seven days. (or about five and a half months)

Though, the female would have to stay in one form during the entire time. Because as stated before, if a female shifts, then anything in the womb would instantly die. Personally, I think it would be appropiate for the female to stay in werewolf form during the entire time. But yeah, what about her human life? Hmm....

Hmmm...someone finally answered this.
http://calypso-blue.com/werewolf/viewto ... =2433#2433

[Scott Gardener]

On the broad topic:

I agree with the general consensus, and in fact a lot of werewolf lore, both classical and modern, focuses on wolves that assume human form. Contemporary examples would include the Anime Wolf's Rain, the short-lived TV series Wolf Lake, Werewolf: the Apocalypse (Garou derived from wolf lines were known as "lupus," whereas those of human heritage were "homids"), and getting closer to classical roots, the movie The Company of Wolves.

A wolf becoming human is no more or less far-fetched than a human becoming a wolf. Since werewolves are mythical constructs, it's a matter of what does and doesn't fit the defining elements, and a lot of the lore was indeed about wolves hiding among humans, rather than the other way around.

Granted, the wolf does have one problem that a human wouldn't in order to fit in--learning human language and abstract conceptual thinking. I won't automatically assume wolves don't have their own abstract thinking ability, but it does seem unlikely that they are anywhere close to humans in that respect, and are far more likely to be geared towards focusing on concrete day-to-day existance. Philosophy, art, religion, and the like, for all their pluses and minuses, haven't been found to any extent in wolves in nature. I still refuse to call them "dumb," however; that smacks of human arrogance. They just lack a means of pulling out of the context of their immediate existance, since their brain size is comparatively small and their language fairly straight-forward and simplistic.

In my own stories, a wolf given shapeshifting powers would have to be built from different genetics than a human turned wolf. The wolf-werewolf would in each cell nucleus have a full set of normal wolf DNA, plus a set of shapeshifting instructions and instructions on a human form. Such a being could not produce a child with a human-werewolf, who is in my storyline a human modified by a virus that adds shapeshifting and wolf form info.

Though I've toyed with the idea, I haven't actually written about a wolf becoming human, but my current novel in the works has an appearance by a human-seeming shapeshifter who was once a domestic cat. After being given human perspective and cognitive skills, he knows all about humanity and how to play human games, but he's not very impressed with our species.

On the specific topic of pregnancy:

I generally would think that a werewolf would be the same organism regardless of form, and thus antigen compatability problems would either come up at various points or not regardless of form. However, my pregnant werewolves avoid shifting if they want to keep the pregancy to term for other reasons. (It's a handy plot device to keep my characters on the run in the first novel from worrying about contraception, and I can sort-of justify it.)

Whether one gives birth to singletons or litters is a seperate debate I'll avoid for now, along with the multiple rows of breasts thing.

[Scott Gardener]

Addendum, on the puppy issue:

Wolves turned human generally follow wolf biology rules, whereas humans turned wolves seem to be more flexible overall--mainly because most stories today tend to favor humans turned wolf.

Rules regarding species apply to naturally occurring species. In my own storyline, werewolves are an artificial creation--an alien civilization creates them in an effort to figure out metaphysics. As such, reproducing a species is an afterthought, but my werewolves do follow the contageous virus idea, so it is reproducable by subsidizing off Homo sapiens. (In my storyline, some time around 2013, on short notice, a consortium of biologists are gathered together and unanimously agree that humans infected with lycanthropy are still members of the human species rather than a new one. Beings created from scratch using the same genetic framework also count as humans with contageous genetic modifications. This has important ramifications on the grounds of basic civil rights, since humans around that time still seperate themselves from other species in terms of rights concepts.)

[kita]

damned boy youve been doin this stuff for a long time i could use a guy like you
woohoo! top of third page!

[Silver]

[ANTIcarrot.]

Dumb question: Wouldn't depend on the species of the father as well?

If a werewolf changes from human to wolf then it follows that ALL of her internal cells also change from human to wolf. So her human eggs would turn to wolf eggs, and would probably suddenly become compatable with canines. So if she had a wild night on the town, did a few things without considdering the consiquences then she'd have a canine embryo inside her. If she didn't change back for another eight months there's every reason to suspect she'd give birth to cubs instead of kids.

Ditto if a wolfwere turned human and stayed human for nine months. In both cases the off spring would probably inherit were-like tendencies. Ths raises interesting questions though: We all have bacteria in our gut that heps us digest our food. Wolves have diferent bacteria. Does the change process affect the bacteria (which are NOT actually part of a person's body) as much as the rest of the body?

If the answer is yes then it might change the embryo all the way through pregnancy. In which case it might depend on the shape the other's in when contractions start.

ANTIcarrot.

[Apokryltaros]

The bacteria inside of a wolf's gut are for the most part, the same as the bacteria in the gut of a human, given as how Escheria coli is the standard commensal gut bacterium of all mammals, and that Salmonella is the commensal gut bacterium of all living reptiles and birds.

[netherwurm]

I would assume that a ww would remain in its "true" form at least when giving birth if not sooner. The body would automatically change to accommodate the unborn at the appropriate time. This would make the mother more vulnerable to attacks. Thus the pack she's a part of would need to protect her from any outside threats.

[Silver]

Well, I would go back to nature. Hybrids who are bred back to one or the other species, tend to retain mostly hybrid traits. With enough back breeding, you get the original species with a smidgeon of the other.

And since the mom is based either wolf or human, I'd say the embryo must be based the same as the mom - or not survive. A large, large number of conceived embryos, in humans, only live a couple of hours, or days. They just don't make it for many, many reasons. And there are a lot of twin embryos that only have one surviving member. So survival would depend on compatibility with the mother's womb. If the embryo is the same base as the mom, it would live with a few of the traits - I would say a human with slightly heightened senses, or a canine with less defined senses, but very smart.

This is if the ww gene is dominant, and if only one parent is a ww.

I view the ww gene as double recessive,otherwise - look at the dog population in your neck of the woods. How many would be partial wws? They'd over breed for the hunting ground. Sooo double recessive, meaning all genes must be ww. Both parents would have to be one before the baby was born one. Otherwise, it's just the base species.

That's my view.

[Vuldari]

... since the mom is based either wolf or human, I'd say the embryo must be based the same as the mom - or not survive.

... Sooo double recessive, meaning all genes must be ww. Both parents would have to be one before the baby was born one. Otherwise, it's just the base species.

That's my view.

Clear and logical. Makes sense to me.

[Figarou]

Sooo double recessive, meaning all genes must be ww. Both parents would have to be one before the baby was born one. Otherwise, it's just the base species.

That's my view.

White-Wolf sees it differently. If 2 werewolves mate, A "metis" is born.

I don't see it like White-Wolf. The male werewolf has half the gene information while the female werewolf has the other half. Thats a better chance for the baby to be born a werewolf. Silver's view makes better sence.

[Terastas]

Wow this is all getting very...technical. A shift would almost have to not affect the baby, other than perhaps a change to and from wolf as its mother transforms. The reason really is a simple one. A species that can't reproduce well dies out. It doesn't matter how well evolved they may (or may not) be. If s*** cause things like miscarrages then the entire species would die out pretty quickly regardless of the "bite and change" factor.

That's a good point, but to fullproof it, you'd need to answer a few other questions that have been raised in other polls.

My understanding of a werewolf's regenerative capabilities, for example, was that it could be used to counteract the symptoms of aging. Just to clarify, I'm not saying that I think werewolves should be immortal; just that no one knows how long they can live because werewolves typically don't die of natural causes.
What I was thinking was that, assuming a werewolf's regenerative capabilities do cover aging, even though only one out of every ten pregnancies may be successful, a werewolf couple could still attempt to reproduce once every ten months or so over a fifty year period and still have five or six cubs between them.

I know that's an unlikely example, but you get the idea. The concept would be that they reproduce less, but have much more time to attempt to.

[Figarou]

Wow this is all getting very...technical. A shift would almost have to not affect the baby, other than perhaps a change to and from wolf as its mother transforms. The reason really is a simple one. A species that can't reproduce well dies out. It doesn't matter how well evolved they may (or may not) be. If s*** cause things like miscarrages then the entire species would die out pretty quickly regardless of the "bite and change" factor.

That's a good point, but to fullproof it, you'd need to answer a few other questions that have been raised in other polls.

My understanding of a werewolf's regenerative capabilities, for example, was that it could be used to counteract the symptoms of aging. Just to clarify, I'm not saying that I think werewolves should be immortal; just that no one knows how long they can live because werewolves typically don't die of natural causes.
What I was thinking was that, assuming a werewolf's regenerative capabilities do cover aging, even though only one out of every ten pregnancies may be successful, a werewolf couple could still attempt to reproduce once every ten months or so over a fifty year period and still have five or six cubs between them.

I know that's an unlikely example, but you get the idea. The concept would be that they reproduce less, but have much more time to attempt to.

Well, the way I see it is this. Wolf pups are born very small and they still have thier eyes closed. The wolf fetus develops faster than a human fetus.(2months) Since the pup is so much smaller, there is space to have more than 1 fetus in the womb.(6-8 fetus) A human fetus takes longer to develop and is much bigger when born. Normally, only one can fit inside the womb.

With one fetus developing in the human female, it will make the belly stick out more since its bigger than a wolf cub when born. Female wolves don't have big belly sticking out like a human when its time do give birth. You can see a small bulge, but its not big enough to affect their movements. Wolves don't have a hard time getting up from a lying down position. Human females do. I'm not sure if a human female can touch the toes when 8 months pregnant.

Soooooo.....with all that said above. Will the werewolf fetus be born small to prevent the female werewolf from having a big belly like a human? Will the female werewolf only carry the fetus for 2 months? If the fetus is small, female werewolves can still shift whenever they want and have no problems moving around. If this is the case, then the new born werewolf will be smaller compared to a human baby when born. That should be no problem IF the new born werewolf grows very quickly during the 1st month.

Edit.

I don't mean very tiny like a kangaroo fetus. Just smaller than a human baby.

[ANTIcarrot.]

The werewolf 'gene' might not be genetic. Since the change is effectvely magic, then it could be 'magical inheritance'. The young inherate half of their mothers 'aura' (for lack of a better word) in addition to half her DNA.

In such a scenario you'd only ever have human and wolf parents and offspring, some of which would have a 'were-aura' and can change from one into the other. You might have a DNA gene that is linked to the aura gene, but onlky in the way a computer-shortcut links to a programme elsewhere on the computer. It's powerless by itself and it completely pointless if the link is broken/misdirected somehow.

Aura here refers to a standing magic spell that controls the change and any strengths and vaulnerabities the were has. Think of it not so uch as a D&D magic-spell as a D&D charater sheet for the were. And nothing to do with any new-age nonsense.

ANTIcarrot.

[Vuldari]

The werewolf 'gene' might not be genetic. Since the change is effectvely magic, then it could be 'magical inheritance'. ...

Actually...I have found that the word"magic" has been all but avoided on this forum thus far. I may be wrong, but I get the impression that most have preferred, or at least leaned towards a Genetic and/or Viral origin. A sort of drifting, symbiotic species, as it were.

On the other hand...the role of "magic" in this film has not be defined as of yet. Is it partially magical, or purely biological? I don't know. It may not even be decided yet.

Be very careful about following the rules set down by different franchises though.

... Think of it not so uch as a D&D magic-spell as a D&D charater sheet for the were. And nothing to do with any new-age nonsense. ;)

This is not the D&D universe. ...and YES, I know you know that.

Nice linking of magic and genetics by the way...

...You might have a DNA gene that is linked to the aura gene, but onlky in the way a computer-shortcut links to a programme elsewhere on the computer. It's powerless by itself and it completely pointless if the link is broken/misdirected somehow.

[Mr_Lycos]

Speaking of D&D: they've had the wolfwere for 20+ years now

[Apokryltaros]

Speaking of D&D: they've had the wolfwere for 20+ years now

And I quote...
ME: "The only reason why you want to play a wolfwere because you want to be a sex-changing monster so you can munch on some tasty man-flesh"
FRIEND: "GET OUT OF MY HEAD!"

[Scott Gardener]

Once you introduce magic, you can do just about anything.

The term "magic" has come to mean a number of different things, but is often used as a catch-all term for things otherwise unexplainable.

"Magick" with an extra letter has been used by practicioners of certain Pagan belief systems, including my own religion, to specify a particular concept of highly organized (dare I say, obsessive-compulsive) creative visualization rituals, in which one visualizes accomplishing certain things and performs a series of actions to do it.

The fantasy genre applies the term "magic" frequently to a variant of real-world magick, but allows the effects to be far less subtle, without any ambiguity about causality. (In other words, there's no logical doubt about whether or not the thing exists, when Wizards actively hurl fireballs for everyone to see.)

The principles about how magic, plus or minus the k, works, is highly debatable and variable, and thus eliminates the need for intense refinement at this point, because once you accept magic, you allow for all kinds of possibilities.

Quoted out of context, that's a great affirmation.

[Vuldari]

Once you introduce magic, you can do just about anything.

The term "magic" has come to mean a number of different things, but is often used as a catch-all term for things otherwise unexplainable.

"Magick" with an extra letter has been used by practicioners of certain Pagan belief systems, including my own religion, to specify a particular concept of highly organized (dare I say, obsessive-compulsive) creative visualization rituals, in which one visualizes accomplishing certain things and performs a series of actions to do it.

The fantasy genre applies the term "magic" frequently to a variant of real-world magick, but allows the effects to be far less subtle, without any ambiguity about causality. (In other words, there's no logical doubt about whether or not the thing exists, when Wizards actively hurl fireballs for everyone to see.)

The principles about how magic, plus or minus the k, works, is highly debatable and variable, and thus eliminates the need for intense refinement at this point, because once you accept magic, you allow for all kinds of possibilities.

Quoted out of context, that's a great affirmation.

In other words, "MAGIC" means; "Something that should be impossible". That is how I have allways seen it anyway. If you want to do something, but can't explain how it could be done,( because it CAN'T), then you just say it takes Magic. It's a cheap escape from the rules of reality.
...cheap, but FUN. I prefer the alternate physics idea over just calling it "magic", personally.

Science is the study of all that is real. If shapeshifting existed, (or summonable fireballs for that matter), then the knowlage and understanding of these things would be science...not Magic. "There is no such thing as Magic".

[Figarou]

"There is no such thing as Magic".

There is no spoon.

[Scott Gardener]

There's no such thing as Magic.

Try telling my pocketbook that, back around ten years ago. I still have thousands of Magic: the Gathering cards sitting in a closet upstairs.

[Terastas]

"Magic" can really just be thought of as a term to describe that which cannot be explained. I forget what comic book this came from, but someone once said:

"What is sorcery to you is science to me."

Lycanthropy probably could be explained scientifically. We as a people have simply not progressed enough to understand it.

Anyway, going back to Figarou:

I wasn't sure how long it would take a werewolf cub to fully develop, but I figured most werewolves wouldn't be apt to become pregnant again, so once every ten months seemed like enough time for a werewolf to give birth and still have time to recover from the previous attempt.

As for the nature of the cubs themselves... Well, that could go either way, so it's really more a matter of preference than debate. On one hand, the mother is not necessesarilly 50% human and 50% wolf, rather someone that is typically 99% human and 1% wolf but is capable of becomming 50/50 if she decides to. A werewolf cub wouldn't develop exactly like a human child for sure, but a combination of human and werewolf development wouldn't be a very good representation either.

It's a tough one to determine, but the easiest way to define it (I hope) would be to compare it to a human birth with only slight differences. A baby would likely be born at least a month ahead of time, would be between 2 to 4 pounds as opposed to 5 to 12 pounds, and I suppose it's possible that, assuming the child survives the first symtpoms of lycanthropy, they might retain some wolfish features until they can be taught how to control their shifting ability properly.

I know that's a lousy definition, but it made more sense than anything else I tried to come up with.

[Bete]

I voted "no" as I believe that a wolf that becomes werewolf would actually need it's own name. I notice I am in the minority on this vote.