Human population

[WolvenOne]

you know, I've often thought to myself.... *when the 7 billion people currently on earth die out, where are we gonna find a cemetary big enough for that many people?*

Heh, yes I know, silly little thought that's more then a little morbid.

[Renorei]

As I've said, I just don't see it at all happening.

And by the way, thanks for keeping a cool head.

No sweat. I'm getting better at doing that all the time.


Perhaps my various suggested methods aren't the best ones to achieve genetic improvement in humans. But I do still think it is something we should strive for, however we decide to do it. Especially now that our technology and education about genetics is improving, we are now (or soon will be) in a position in which we could enact positive change.

To address WolvenOne's comment about nature and nurture:

You are quite correct, nurture plays an enormous factor in physical ability. In our current society, it may even play a bigger role than nature. However, my main concern is that, say, a really really long time from now, some guy may get up off the couch and decide he wants to run a mile. He'll try and do it, but he won't succeed the first time. He'll try again the next day, but he'll still fail. He'll continue to try and try and try, but he'll never succeed and if he does, it'll take him a really long time to do. As of now, the average person could probably run (or jog, rather) a mile, or at least train for a brief time period to be able to. I am concerned that, because our lives grow more and more sedentary, physical ability will not be selected for and will gradually dwindle over time, lowering the physical potential of future people. True, determination plays a massive factor, but when you just don't have a high potential for physical activity to begin with, you can't progress very much, and your progress is slow.

Basically, I want all future people to have as much genetic potential to do whatever they want as possible, whether or not they choose to utilize it. (Because after all, many of them won't, but some of them will want to, so they should have every right to do so.)

[WolvenOne]

You know, the genetic potential, really doesn't mean all that much to be perfectly honest. Even a person who has pretty much the best combination of genes possible from both parents, won't have drastically more potential to run jump or lift wieghts.

Genes can help, yes, but a lot of the best athletes on earth right now, simply practiced, kept at it, and didn't give up. Ultimatly that sort of persaverence plays a larger role then genes.

Now, honestly, I think a better solution would be BrainChips. No don't laugh, allow me to explain myself.

Say that they finally figure out how to get the human brain and manmade computers to talk to eachother and as a result certain mathmatical or non-artistic skills can be taught to people in minutes or hours rather then years.

What then happens to the educational system? Even if you have an army of 5 year olds with the knowledge neccesery to make it in the world, they don't have the physical or mental maturity to make any use of it.

So they need to keep the education system intact, but they just cannot keep doing the same-old same old.

So what do they teach? Critical Thinking, art, art, and "sports". With Science, Math, and half dozen other sorts of classes rendered obsolete, subjects like these would get a heck of a lot more attention.

For example, rather then people spending 1 hour a day in gym at little as twice a week, there may be time for upto 3 hours in gym a day. Plus if everybody was actually on a sports team of some sort, they'd be forced to learn how to cooperate with eachother, work as a team, and actually get along. So it'd help reinforce social skills quite well.

Plus, of course, it'd give people a physical hobby for life. Furthermore, for those that spent most of thier time in art-classes rather then taking physical classes, they would leave highschool with a high level of artistic prowess already at hand. In short, things in many ways would more resemble colleges and universities.

[Renorei]

You know, the genetic potential, really doesn't mean all that much to be perfectly honest. Even a person who has pretty much the best combination of genes possible from both parents, won't have drastically more potential to run jump or lift wieghts.

Genes can help, yes, but a lot of the best athletes on earth right now, simply practiced, kept at it, and didn't give up. Ultimatly that sort of persaverence plays a larger role then genes.

Perseverance does play a massive role, as I've conceded. However, if someone is born with a weak heart because many or all of his predecessors were able to survive with weak hearts b/c of good medical care and also b/c a strong heart isn't really necessary to live in modern society, then he is going to be at a disadvantage if he attempted strenuous physical activity. Which is why I'm in favor of providing future people with as much genetic 'opportunity' as possible.

Now, honestly, I think a better solution would be BrainChips. No don't laugh, allow me to explain myself.

Say that they finally figure out how to get the human brain and manmade computers to talk to eachother and as a result certain mathmatical or non-artistic skills can be taught to people in minutes or hours rather then years.

What then happens to the educational system? Even if you have an army of 5 year olds with the knowledge neccesery to make it in the world, they don't have the physical or mental maturity to make any use of it.

So they need to keep the education system intact, but they just cannot keep doing the same-old same old.

So what do they teach? Critical Thinking, art, art, and "sports". With Science, Math, and half dozen other sorts of classes rendered obsolete, subjects like these would get a heck of a lot more attention.

For example, rather then people spending 1 hour a day in gym at little as twice a week, there may be time for upto 3 hours in gym a day. Plus if everybody was actually on a sports team of some sort, they'd be forced to learn how to cooperate with eachother, work as a team, and actually get along. So it'd help reinforce social skills quite well.

Plus, of course, it'd give people a physical hobby for life. Furthermore, for those that spent most of thier time in art-classes rather then taking physical classes, they would leave highschool with a high level of artistic prowess already at hand. In short, things in many ways would more resemble colleges and universities.

I think this is a great idea, and one that I have long been in favor of. Making the educational process faster would definitely go a long way toward improving our world. However, there are still problems that could be better solved on the genetic front.

Genetic discrimination is already occuring in our world. There's some kinda hand disease that affects your hand's ability to function properly, and it's genetic. In one case, an employer found out that a guy had a predisposition towards this disease, and didn't hire him. Brain chips can't fix things like that.

Advances in medicine could minimize or negate the effects of diseases such as this, but can never cure them (because it's in your genes). Unless of course gene therapy was used, but I'm not sure if the gene therapy changes in an individual will be passed on to their kids.

This also applies to other diseases like epilepsy, narcolepsy, eczema tourette's...there are many others. A chip in your brain won't make them go away, and medicine can't make them go away, it can only minimize the effects, but the gene will still be passed on. With eugenics or genetic engineering or whatever, we could make things like this go away completely.

Ultimately, I think both improvements on the genetic front and the advent of brain chips to expedite education would be great improvements to our world, and would allow future humans to be better people than we are.

[WolvenOne]

Well, as I've said earlier, filtering out genetic deformities isn't a problem. It's when people try to give thier child an advantage beyond that, such as hyper-intelligence or whatnot.

Put restrictions in place to prevent that and I have no problem with that. Though I should note that won't stop genetic defects from popping up. Mainly because anybody who percieves themself as healthy won't likely use it. Those who would likely use it, are people with long histories of genetic defects and health problems in thier familiy tree.

[Renorei]

Well, as I've said earlier, filtering out genetic deformities isn't a problem. It's when people try to give thier child an advantage beyond that, such as hyper-intelligence or whatnot.

Put restrictions in place to prevent that and I have no problem with that. Though I should note that won't stop genetic defects from popping up. Mainly because anybody who percieves themself as healthy won't likely use it. Those who would likely use it, are people with long histories of genetic defects and health problems in thier familiy tree.

Well, I'm glad we see eye-to-eye, more or less. I really do think brain chips would be a fantastic idea, though. I would love to have spent my high school days learning about stuff I cared about rather than crap I'll never use.

[WolvenOne]

i should note though that it'd take a massive effort to educate the public about what a technalogy could and couldn't do and who should use it. So in that respect it may not be much more effective then not having children, especially when you consider that a large portion of the families WITH long histories of severe genetic issues, are already avoiding having children.

Couldn't hurt of course, as long as it's not abused in mass.

As for Brainchips, they arn't an end-all answer, and unfortunetly they would almost certainly be abused by countries with lower human rights standards

[Celestialwolf]

First off...I would like to appologise to LazyWolf for dirrecting an unfair portion of my anger on him and for for calling him "Dense". I am not one to normally call people names, and I feel really bad about it.

Sorry dude...

Don't worry about it! Heated debate can do that. Sorry again to anyone I might have offended as well.

[outwarddoodles]

I think the only thing we should do about making genetics better is just encouraging people with a very bad history of illnesses to not have a baby, or adopt. Not reward anyone for not doing or doing it. Just that someone with a very dense history of bad health should always keep in mind that their child just may be like them. Such as my mother, sick as can be, same with my mother's side of the family. I have a chance I am going to grow up crippled. Mom had not know of this as the time she had me, she was particulary the only healthy person in the family. I just don't think someone who knows they have really bad health should have a baby, but only out of morals.
(Please god, I beleive the desiese is dirested towards hands but don't take them, please, take my legs instead!)

Otherwise even with people with very bad genetic health problems it would still be a LONG time to ever make people's genetics more 'superioir'.

Nurture very well does play a roll in you, infact I'm much of a Nurture person, I think it does with alot of who you are. Despite poor genes from Mom's side (though Dad's is good, Hopefully that will be good!) if I would actualy get off my arse right now and exercise. I won't have to worry about rotting away. I think we need to teach people to eat right and exercise, something that is already going on now.

you know, I've often thought to myself.... *when the 7 billion people currently on earth die out, where are we gonna find a cemetary big enough for that many people?*

Don't worry, I have thought that many times. I beleive in Tawain they have cemetaries with coffins stacked on top of Coffins. Theres going to be alot of land taken up to bury so many people. Not only are there so many people, but GARBAGE. To much Garbage!!!

Brain chips, sounds tasty, yet I really don't know. They would be complicated to make, not only must we fully learn how the brain works but also how we can munipulate it in such a way. Very smart idea, yet I think the only reason I don't like it is because I, and all of you, had to learn the old fashion way with no help of brain chips.

Brain food!

[outwarddoodles]

Sorry to pollute you people with stuff. Yet this conservation reminded me of this little video:
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/ratatat

[WolvenOne]

Well, most garbage bio-degrades EVENTUALLY, and we don't need to mark where the garbage is buried for the next 1000 years with a tombstone.

I dunno, when I think about it, it makes the idea of cremation seem a lot more practical.

[outwarddoodles]

Well, most garbage bio-degrades EVENTUALLY, and we don't need to mark where the garbage is buried for the next 1000 years with a tombstone.

I dunno, when I think about it, it makes the idea of cremation seem a lot more practical.

Yeah but there sure are alot of garbage!

I always thought cremation a little bit more pratical, I always wanted to just be cremated and then spread out somewhere nice. I do plan on do that for my cats too, though I may keep my most beleived in a cheap urn untill I die or feel the time is right.

[Vuldari]

First, we need to educate the world and raise collective human intelligence. Then, more people will be aware of the problem at hand, and more will be in a position to participate in its resolution.

But, education is about more than just technology and raising living standards. One has to bring an educated mind-set with it. Otherwise, you get exactly what's happened. The cultural conditionings to "go forth and multiply" are an adaptive survival method....
...The population spikes happen when an underdeveloped culture turns into a developed one, but takes with it the motivations of "God said we have to reproduce as much as possible," that are rendered logically obsolete but still ingrained on a core cultural level.

We have to convince people to question whether "God said to have as many kids as possible" is just as relevant in a global context, where the planet is only so big. ...
... Free will and choice should be available, and that takes knowledge of alternatives. To make a choice, you have to realize you have one.

Exactly! ...well put Scott Gardener. It is refreshing to see someone else who is on the same page as me on this matter.


The solution is not in govenment intervention, (though a little bit here and there may help), but in making the people of the world more aware and supplementing the genral wisdom of the world populace.

"Go fourth and Multiply" is obsolite. The condition of the world we inhibit has changed since then...

...so we much change our ways along with it.

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Edit:

On Cremation: I am inclined to agree. Obvioulsly, If we bury everyone who ever dies in a coffin, and then mark that spot as filled and eternally off limits, then sooner or later, we will run out of potential grave sites. Therefore, since going the natural route and just leaving the bodies to decompose like the rest of nature is definataly out of the question, cremation is certainly the most logical and practical alternative.

(Personally, I have no desire to have my corpse inshrined in the ground after I die. I mean...I'll be dead. My mind and pesonality (aka-my "Soul") will not be there any more. What I leave behind is about as valuable as the hair and toenail clippings I leave on my bathroom floor. Therefore, cremation would make the most sense. ...after my good parts are given to those who need them, that is. (They might as well go to someone who can use them, since I won't be needing them any more.)

[WolvenOne]

Well, I would like to avoid death altogether if possible *it sounds rather unpleasent in many cases.* So deciding on cremation or whatnot is something I'll put off for awhile. ;)

As for Brainchips, the theory will probably become reality in 20 years or so, but it could take quite awhile longer for it to reach the point where it doesn't require dangerous and intrusive surgery.

As for Genetic filtration of birth defects. Realistically any system that weeds out birth defects is going to need to happen, AFTER the child is born in order to do any good in mass. So it'd have to more resemble really REALLY advanced gene therapy or something like that.

On a related note, one of the things that this planet needs most is a Space Elevator. I mean, getting into space for a semi-practical price would DRAMATICALLY change how our world works.

[Apokryltaros]

On Cremation: I am inclined to agree. Obvioulsly, If we bury everyone who ever dies in a coffin, and then mark that spot as filled and eternally off limits, then sooner or later, we will run out of potential grave sites. Therefore, since going the natural route and just leaving the bodies to decompose like the rest of nature is definataly out of the question, cremation is certainly the most logical and practical alternative.

(Personally, I have no desire to have my corpse enshrined in the ground after I die. I mean...I'll be dead. My mind and pesonality (aka-my "Soul") will not be there any more. What I leave behind is about as valuable as the hair and toenail clippings I leave on my bathroom floor. Therefore, cremation would make the most sense. ...after my good parts are given to those who need them, that is. (They might as well go to someone who can use them, since I won't be needing them any more.)

They have a system to convert the ashes of loved ones into diamonds...
Think of it, instead of having your grandmother's wedding ring, your grandmother can now be your wedding!

[WolvenOne]

Do you think they could convert my ashes into French Fries instead? I'd like to be remembered as being delicious.

(Yes I know that's a very bad AND morbid joke but I couldn't resist.)

[Figarou]

Do you think they could convert my ashes into French Fries instead? I'd like to be remembered as being delicious.

(Yes I know that's a very bad AND morbid joke but I couldn't resist.)

Out of all the different types of food items, you chose french fries?

[WolvenOne]

They're crispy, delicious and not actually french! What's not to like! ;)

[Apokryltaros]

Do you think they could convert my ashes into French Fries instead? I'd like to be remembered as being delicious.

(Yes I know that's a very bad AND morbid joke but I couldn't resist.)

The only way you could do that would be to be cremated, and have your ashes used to fertilize a potato bush...
Now, if you want to be remembered as being delicious, I strongly recommend the Kurt Cobain method, in that your last will and testament, you are to have your ashes mixed into cake mix, to be made into some sort of cake, cupcake or other pastry.

They're crispy, delicious and not actually french! What's not to like! ;)

If this one lawyer is to be believed, acrylamide.