Reverse Werewolves?

[Apokryltaros]

I voted "no" as I believe that a wolf that becomes werewolf would actually need it's own name. I notice I am in the minority on this vote.

Technically speaking, Dungeons and Dragons named such creatures as "wolfweres"

[Bete]

I voted "no" as I believe that a wolf that becomes werewolf would actually need it's own name. I notice I am in the minority on this vote.

Technically speaking, Dungeons and Dragons named such creatures as "wolfweres"

Great point Apokryltaros!

[ANTIcarrot.]

A fox looks like it is a cross between a cat and a dog, but in reality it is neither, but rather a creature of related but independent origins and a unique biochemistry of its own.

Logically then, a werewolf *IS* a werewolf. It can *appear* in the form of a human, or a wolf, (and might once had been a human or wolf), but otherwise it's still a werewolf all of the time. It's like a convertible. It's not two different types of car, but one car that can change its appearance.

Lycanthropy probably could be explained scientifically.

Werewolves can also be explained with intelligent technobabble. ;) For instance you could define the 'werewolf syndrome' as 'the presence of an infectious pure-energy symbiote that can alter the hosts form in response to mental state or command for the purpose of self preservation or camouflage'.

That sounds rational, and it is, but still had no basis in science, and significantly advanced biology like that is indistinguishable from magic.

ANTIcarrot.

[Calypso Blue]

Quantum Genetics

[Apokryltaros]

Quantum Genetics

Starring Scott Bakula?

[Howling Fan]

I'm only going to say this once: "For the love of God, do not make a wolf become a werewolf in this movie." Did you see the dog/wolf/werewolf hybrids in the "Cursed" trailer? As Bart Simpson might say, "Craptacular."

[Scott Gardener]

I can't gripe too much about "quantum genetics," since I've contemplated an "astral virus" for a version of lycanthropy that crops up 2000 years or so from now in the mediations for my novel's third sequel. I still need to figure out the rules as to who it infects and how. For example, could a cat centaur get it? How about a being who's already a werewolf? How about a giant, floating brain?

And, am I the only one who, after watching Enterprise, keeps waiting when they make references to the "temporal cold war" for Sam's holographic friend to show up, explaining, "it says here that Jonathan Archer is captain of the 'Enterprise,' a ship in 'Starfleet.' You have a Vulcan first officer..." "Oh, like in 'Star Trek'?"

[Ronkonkoma]

My thoughts are that a wolf can become a werewolf, and maybe where the werewolf condition orginated, along with some legends that might have caused the wolfweres (or whatever you want to call them) to be killed off to a small number that later passed the condition to humans, making regular werewolves.

now a-days, wolfweres(or dogweres/huskyweres what have you) are probably a very small number that are incorperated into packs of werewolves, and be in an omega type role, because they've recognised humans as the 'alpha' and the canine lower on the social ladder. wolf weres would have to be kept away from regular humans, because if your wolfwere bites someone, they could change into a werewolf and that be a problem. Wolfweres in their were form would probably be semi-bipedial, hunched over and on all fours but able to stand upright for short periods of time and move around like Gollum from LOTR. wolfweres wouldn't be really able to talk clearly, the best they could manage would be like those 'talking dogs' you sometimes see or hear about where they can 'speak' but its very distorted.

as for puppies, i don't think a female werewolf could get pregnant from a regular wolf, but possibly from a wolfwere. the result would be a 3/4 wolf 1/4 human mix, permanently stuck in a gersalt (spelling i know) form but maybe able to shift to either human/wolf form once it got older and more experianced, but wouldn't be able to stay in that form for too long (just like a werewolf couldn't stay too long in wolf form)

pregnancy- tricky topic. My thoughts are pregnant female werewolf wouldn't be able to change into werewolf form instantly, they get stuck in human form, but after first month or so, start to slowly gain lupine characteristics, and last week of pregancy, is a full werewolf

[Jamie]

A wolf who became a werewolf would be a rather sorry creature, unless the infusion of "humanity" it got brought along a lot of mental templates and impressions, so that it could function like a human who had lost its memory but still retained knowledge of human conventions, culture and at least a smattering of language.

This aspect would be most likely to happen in a magical setting (where a human mind was impressed on the wolf, not just a human brain) or with high-level sci-fi shapeshifting (as in, a transporter accident scrambles up a wolf and a human in hyperspace, and afterwords they both get a bunch of the memories, habits and so on of the other creature, in addition to their new shapeshifting abilities).

Without this aspect, you'd be talking about someone who ran around naked, perhaps on all fours, and growled at people whenever it wasn't running like heck in the opposite direction. If seen even in a small town, it would probably get arrested immediately, unless it turned wolf and managed to slip away. In a city, it would really be in trouble.

My guess is that, if the virus/bitten kind of werewolves were able to make real wolves into werewolves, they would probably not do it, for fear of exposure. If such a creature were created accidentally, it would probably get killed by the human werewolves or dumped in the arctic tundra where nobody would see it (unless it might make even more wolven werewolves, thus eventually leading to big risks).

[Renorei]

I don't think wolves who are bitten would become werewolves.

True, there are some viruses that can infect both humans and wolves, but I don't see lycanthropy as being one of them.

Furthermore, in my vision of werewolfism, I've never thought that werewolves could transform into actual wolves. Just wolf-like creatures. That and the 'gestalt' form.

[Kzinistzerg]

Hmmm. Well, in my universe, such a thing is NOT possible, simply becuase the shiftie part was genetically engineered to humans by aliens, to simplify, so it wouldn't work for wolves, or any otehr animal. furthermore, the process requires Mnarikaa, a substance that requires a sentient mind to manipulate/use, so most creatures are ruled out immedioately.

[Fenrir]

hmm I am wondering. would they just act like the wild children who were raised by animals?

[Scott Gardener]

It would take either engineering a different virus, or, making a very huge virus, that carts around both wolf and human DNA, tossing out the set that's already there in the new host organism.

Or, it could involve something other than a virus. (Duh...)

[Lupin]

It would make sense if it were 'magical' lycantropy, and it would get around the whole 'feral child' problem.

[Renorei]

hmm I am wondering. would they just act like the wild children who were raised by animals?

Yes. If it was somehow possible for them to exist, I believe they would act just like wild children.

Some have pointed out that the wolf would gain human intelligence. It is conceivable that it might, but that certainly doesn't mean they'd be capable of using it. It'd be like trying to put Windows XP on a Tandy computer from 1994 (or whenever they came out).

Also...walking on four legs is easier than walking on two. Humans begin by crawling, which is similar to walking on four legs. It takes them a while to learn to walk on two. A wolf who shifted would probably not even be able to walk as a human.

So...ultimately, whether or not a wolf could become a werewolf (which I think they couldn't), I don't think it would do them any good. They'd have an overload of brain power they couldn't or wouldn't know how to use, and they'd be able to shift into a body they couldn't walk in. Yay.

[Grayheart]

They would also have a big problem dealing with the new way of seeing things. Humans have better 'color-vision'. Wouldn't it be very frightening for a Wolf turning into a human body to see all the 'new' colors of the world around him?

[Apokryltaros]

They would also have a big problem dealing with the new way of seeing things. Humans have better 'color-vision'. Wouldn't it be very frightening for a Wolf turning into a human body to see all the 'new' colors of the world around him?

"The colors! The colors!

[Hearth]

Oh wow. I hadn't thought of that before...

Do werewolves also get colorless sight when in form?

[Lupin]

Oh wow. I hadn't thought of that before...

Do werewolves also get colorless sight when in form?

Not colorless, since dogs and wolves don't have colorless sight either. Just less ability to distinguish red/green in gestalt form, and the normal red/green colorblindness in regular wolf form.

[Celestialwolf]

Makes sense to me. They would have a more dominate wolf mind. The two different kinds of werewolves would look and act very similar. They would get along well in either form. The lupine werewolves would be ferral hunters with human-like intelligence and dexterity. They would continue to act like wolves; they would not have any respect or recognition of human boundaries though.

I combined the parts of both of your quotes that I agree with into what my opinion is.

[Silver]

I haven't read all the way to the third page but I don't think I can. Hasn't this whole mother/baby discussion happened in detail twice before? I'm not sure I understand the fascination with it.

So let me ask a question. How many of the Pack have ever been pregnant or had a baby? If you had, some of this would be more clear. Living through that change tells you a lot about the whole process. So, here are my observations.

1. The mother's body goes through abnormal changes. Cravings are the small stuff. Skin and hair can change shades permanently, metabolism changes, in some cases, bone structure is affected. The toloration for food, noise, smells, etc. often changes - the mother eating what is dangerously unhealthy for a human, but she thrives on it. My blood type is positive. When I was pregnant, it read negative even though this is clearly impossible.

2. The mother's body will most often protect the baby at the cost of the mother, even to her life. I lost eighteen pounds with my first pregancy. I weighed 95 pounds when I went into labor. Why? My blood doesn't store nutrients very well and it all went to the baby. This type of story, while uncommon, is not rare. The mother's health suffers sometimes severely while she's pregnant.

My point in this is two fold. I don't think the mother would be ABLE to change when she was pregnant, because it would possible hurt the baby. Or two babies.

A human based mother would NOT have a litter. Multiple births affect mother and children exponentially in chances of survival. Look at the stories of multiple briths. So maybe twins, possibly triplets if the specific mother's body could handle it (as human bodies do), but not a litter. The more babies, the smaller and weaker. And humans just aren't built that way. So I guess I agree that human-litter births would be highly dangerous and naturally be 'weeded' out of the gene pool.

A wolf would also stay locked in form for the same reason - protect the fetuses.

Therefore the children would not be born as WWs. But I think they might have some interesting talents/interests/personalities.

That's my take on it. When we finish it this time, can we please make this the LAST time we discuss it?

[Silver]

Ok I finally finished this, and I'll give my two cents. Not sure it's worth much.

If a human who goes gestalt still retains their level of intelligence, memories, basic personality, wouldn't a wolf who goes gestalt retain its intelligence level, memories, and basic personality? It would get big, but maybe not as big as human based because wolves are smaller than humans (most anyway).

How horrible to have a transformation and not understand -scared, confused, more agressive due to adrenalin. So then a lupine gestal might actually BE a slavering beast.

WAIT!

How about this - the werewolf virus would very, very rarely affect lupines, and ONLY wolves. I mean it would be one in millions. So we have the gestalt that is the movie stereotype, right? And not smart enough to stay out of places it ought not be.

Tada! Where the legends of the Beast come from!

Mr. Barton, where is your 4-H project?

The dog ate my homework.

Ok, ok it may be far fetched, but what do you think?

[Figarou]

Ok I finally finished this, and I'll give my two cents. Not sure it's worth much.

If a human who goes gestalt still retains their level of intelligence, memories, basic personality, wouldn't a wolf who goes gestalt retain its intelligence level, memories, and basic personality? It would get big, but maybe not as big as human based because wolves are smaller than humans (most anyway).

Well, how intelligent is the wolf in the 1st place? If that wolf goes into gestalt form, will it be able to learn like a human? Can you give it a book and expect it to learn how to read?

How horrible to have a transformation and not understand -scared, confused, more agressive due to adrenalin. So then a lupine gestal might actually BE a slavering beast.

I don't see it that way. A wolf turning into gestalt form won't have that many changes compared to a human shifting into gestalt form.

The wolf already has a tail, lupine head, fur covering the body, and digitigrade hind legs. I can't see it turning into a slavering beast if it turned into the gestalt form for the 1st time. It'll lack the intelligence to understand whats going on. Maybe it'll think its part of growing up. I don't think the rest of the wolf pack will be afraid of it. He will still retain the familiar scent wolves go by.

[Aki]

Ok I finally finished this, and I'll give my two cents. Not sure it's worth much.

If a human who goes gestalt still retains their level of intelligence, memories, basic personality, wouldn't a wolf who goes gestalt retain its intelligence level, memories, and basic personality? It would get big, but maybe not as big as human based because wolves are smaller than humans (most anyway).

Well, how intelligent is the wolf in the 1st place? If that wolf goes into gestalt form, will it be able to learn like a human? Can you give it a book and expect it to learn how to read?

How horrible to have a transformation and not understand -scared, confused, more agressive due to adrenalin. So then a lupine gestal might actually BE a slavering beast.

I don't see it that way. A wolf turning into gestalt form won't have that many changes compared to a human shifting into gestalt form.

The wolf already has a tail, lupine head, fur covering the body, and digitigrade hind legs. I can't see it turning into a slavering beast if it turned into the gestalt form for the 1st time. It'll lack the intelligence to understand whats going on. Maybe it'll think its part of growing up. I don't think the rest of the wolf pack will be afraid of it. He will still retain the familiar scent wolves go by.

I don't think wolves are intelligent to read, write, do arithmetic, etc. Their brains don't and aren't built for that sort of junk. Excess baggage like that is usually dropped, quickly.

Anyways, onto the second part. Humans already have the bipedal body stance, hands, our flatter chest (as apposed to the wolf's barrel chest) etc. So, growing tails, muzzles fur and slighlt switch to digitgrade legs shouldn't freak us out, right?

The wolf will be scared, probably immensely, Its a painful process, its' body structure is being entirely rearranged, and I don't think it would rationalize it as 'Oh I'm growing up' when there are wolves much older than him, including his mother, and theres nothing in his intinsct saying 'This is totally natural'.

Though the scent would be similar, I think the rest of the pack would freak, one of their number just fell over, howling pain, and the sounds of cracking bones and stuff were heard, then this thing that looks and smells kinda like the pack member gets up, looking scared and confused as all hell...and dangerous...

[Figarou]

Anyways, onto the second part. Humans already have the bipedal body stance, hands, our flatter chest (as apposed to the wolf's barrel chest) etc. So, growing tails, muzzles fur and slighlt switch to digitgrade legs shouldn't freak us out, right?

The wolf will be scared, probably immensely, Its a painful process, its' body structure is being entirely rearranged, and I don't think it would rationalize it as 'Oh I'm growing up' when there are wolves much older than him, including his mother, and theres nothing in his intinsct saying 'This is totally natural'.

Though the scent would be similar, I think the rest of the pack would freak, one of their number just fell over, howling pain, and the sounds of cracking bones and stuff were heard, then this thing that looks and smells kinda like the pack member gets up, looking scared and confused as all hell...and dangerous...

If you stop and think, there is not much physical shifting from wolf to gestalt. I already pointed that out. From human to wolf or wolf to human, yes.


And another thing. How do we know the wolf will go through a lot of pain during the shift? The wolf's body chemistry is different from ours. Maybe he can handle the pain. Or, maybe there is no pain at all to the wolf.

Answer me this. Why is it the female human have pain during child birth and the female animal doesn't? I seen animals giving birth on Animal Planet. I have yet to see one screaming in pain during the process.


Also the wolf is used to being on all fours. If he shifted to the gestalt form for the 1st time, I don't think it'll stand up on its hind legs right away. It must learn to walk on 2 legs. The human will have to get used to running on all fours if he shifted to wolf form for the 1st time. But since the human is more intelligent, he can learn quickly.


The rest of the wolf pack can be afraid of him if they notice the chemical changes. Also appearence can frighten them. What if the wolf uncontrolably became a human under the full moon? That'll make the rest of the pack freak out.