Nintendo Revolution Controller.

[Vuldari]

So your saying this smaller controller will clasp into the larger one possibly?

Yes.

To quote the official Nintendo representative exactly;
(As exerpted from the TGS presentation)

...but how will existing games be played with this controller? How can I play... "virtual console games"...Nintendo games using Revolution virtual console features...some people may allready be wondering about this. In order to prevent the console video from becoming overly complicated we did not explain how we would solve this...however, by taking advantage of the controllers expansion feature, you will be able to play the existing games, virtual console games, and Multi-Platform games using what we call the "Classic style Expansion Controller"...this is an expansion controller wtih a shape of existing controllers into which the freehand style controller can be inserted, so please rest assured, all your favorite games will play well on Revolution.

The "Virtual Console" he is refering to is the built-in Emulator that will allow the Revolution to play downloaded Classic games from the NES, SNES, and N64.

Basicly...all anyone knows about this "expansion" controller is those exact words he spoke at TGS. The FAKE picture of the Revolution controller inside of a "WaveBird" controller is just an idea of what IGN thought he was talking about.

...what he really meant by that is anyones guess at this point...but it sounds like you Will insert the revolution controller into a larger controller of sorts to play "classic" style games.

No word yet on if this will be packed in with the revolution along with the "Nunchuck" attatchment, or if it will be sold seperately.

[WolvenOne]

Not entirly speculation, even in the pictures and video's you can clearly see people extending thier wrists in a way that is likely to become uncomfortable after awhile. I'm hoping that they throw in a slight curve to solve this problem but.... based on everything I've seen I kinda doubt it.

Though I suppose there's always 3rd party controllers.

[Vuldari]

**Moved All FAQs and Links to beginning of thread**

-->Return to first Post. <--

[WolvenOne]

Okay, after looking at the mock-up of the light-gun extension for this controller, I concluded that for FPS, that's going to be the best ergononic shape available.

However, some friends and mine concluded that even with the Analog extension the A button will be neccesery to reload ammunition with, and the D pad will be neccesery for scrolling through invantory and such.

So I'm trying to figure out how to put these buttons onto such an extension and I'm having a hard time. anybody wanna help me out with this?

Oh, and quick run-down of the controll scheme we came up with.

z1=jump
z2=crouch

A=reload
B=shoot

Up/Down = Weapon Scroll
Left/Right = Invantory Scroll (Flashlights and such.)

Analog= Movment
SpacialMouse= Aim/facing

[Shadow Wulf]

just get a playstation or xbox looking controller for the PC, it has all the buttons you need.

[Vilkacis]

I haven't really taken a look at what this thing is capable of as far as extensions and the pointer capabilities go (and I can't find the light-gun mock-up you spoke of), but this is what I imagine as far as a gun extension goes:

(Forgive the messiness of the drawing.)



This is, unfortunately, a handed arrangement.

-- Vilkacis

[WolvenOne]

Er, first off, i'm not talking about a PC.

Second, while a controller is superior for many genre's and game types, for PC First Person Shooters, a mouse is probably a better choice due to the increased accuracy in the aim function.

Now, the Revolution controller is just a 3D Spatial Mouse with a tilt function so it theoretically should work fine for first person shooters. However there's already a lot of fans of that genre that asking for a gun attachment to the Rev Controller to make it a little more ergonomic.

The question I was asking, was how exactly to fit the D pad and the A button onto the attachment.

Thankfully somebody has looked back at the past and came up with a suitable answer.



That there is the official light-gun controller for the Sega Dreamcast. It's a little bulky, but as you can see, the back of it is flattened off to make room for both a D-pad and an additional 2 buttons.

The same flattened out design should work for smaller guns so this more or less would solve the problem. Though as many people have pointed out, a daisy-chaining capability will be needed to attach both a lightgun extension and an Analog extension together into one controller.

[WolvenOne]

Heh, got bored, made my own mockup.

[Vuldari]

Okay, after looking at the mock-up of the light-gun extension for this controller, I concluded that for FPS, that's going to be the best ergononic shape available.

However, some friends and mine concluded that even with the Analog extension the A button will be neccesery to reload ammunition with, and the D pad will be neccesery for scrolling through invantory and such.

So I'm trying to figure out how to put these buttons onto such an extension and I'm having a hard time. anybody wanna help me out with this?

Oh, and quick run-down of the controll scheme we came up with.

z1=jump
z2=crouch

A=reload
B=shoot

Up/Down = Weapon Scroll
Left/Right = Invantory Scroll (Flashlights and such.)

Analog= Movment
SpacialMouse= Aim/facing

Ah...but you are still thinking "inside the BOX". Stop trying to think of how you can controll the games the Old way with the New controller. Instead, try to think of things it can do that you CANT do with "normal" controllers.


Reload= ...aim the pointer/gun off the screen and hit the fire button. (Many Arcade shooters, like "Aria 51" use this method.)

Crouch= ...keeping the pointer aimed straight at the screen, make a swift downward motion with the controller (without pushing any buttons). Make the opposite swift upward motion to stand up again.

Jump=...whatever buttons works best for you. (All good FPS's have customisable controlls), OR, perhaps even a flicking motion with the controller like the mario demo from the video.

Weapon/Item inventory= ...Hold down inventory button (of your choosing) and tilt forward and back for items, or twist left or right (like a motorcyle throttle) for weapon selection. ...or vise versa...or whatever.

Melee attack= without pushing any buttons at all, just "jab" forward with the controller, or "slash" with it.


I'm sure someone is going to come up with stranger ideas than these, which will feel strangely natural (like second nature) when you actually use it that way. You may even come to wonder how you ever played games before, limited by just the number of buttons on the controller.

...okay...maybe that's a bit optomistic, but you never know.

[WolvenOne]

Pointing off the screen won't work because as far as I can tell, pointing off the screen is how you'll be rotating left/right up/down

Making an upward motion is something I've thought about, and a few people as I discussed it in private, but we concluded that it'd be highly error prone if only because people may not be able to get it perfectly level every time.

Crouch, well, again, it's likely to be error prone, even if the controller is highly accurate, it doesn't mean the player will be.

Actually there's enough buttons to do everything I've outlined already with just the analog extension. The Gun attachment is mainly for the sake of ergonomics and for getting a little deeper into the game, you know, psychologically.

The extra buttons, are merely there to move the buttons that would have been used on the base controller, to the grip of the handle, otherwise it wouldn't be useable.

Also, for more specific actions, such as say *open door* *flip lightswitch* I'm simply assuming that when people get close enough to such items and aim at them *shoot* turns into.... *Open* of *turn on.*

[Vuldari]

You make a good point about the pointing off screen thing. Trying to do this would likely make you spin around in the game. ...though maybe pointing down instead, as it would be realistic for our player to have to take thier eyes off the action for a split second to reload their weapon. OR...maybe while holsing down the inventory button, you make the opposite of a Jab motion, (pulling it towards you instead...like pumping a shotgun), to reload.

As for factoring a players ability to keep the controller level into the accuracy of using a "lift/drop" crouch mode, I don't think that would be a problem.

As I understand it, (though I don't think I've mentioned this yet) there will be another component to the Revolution controller that will add to it's functionality and accuracy as a "3D Mouse", and that is a sensor(s) that you will set up at the bottom or at the corner(s) of your TV that tracks the controllers movement. Because of this, the Revolution will know not only how you are twisting and tiltling the controller, but where the controller is in REAL 3D Space in relation to your TV. Meaning, it knows if you just took a step to the left or to the right ("Strafe"), if you are close or far from the screen, and if you are holding the controller up high or down low.

That means, even if you are not holding the controller level, the game will know if you just dropped the controller from chest level to waist level, even if it is pointing upwards, downwards or is being held upside-down.

...pretty cool hunh?...

[WolvenOne]

Actually pointing down doesn't work either because there are many situations in FPS where you need to look downward. Actually, I should take a moment to explain how the rotational functions are likely to work.

Press your scroll button.... go ahead do it.... No I'm not being pretentious some people don't know about the feature....

You see that... most likely circular icon with the arrows? Well if you move your curse away from that you'll likely scroll in that direction and the further away you move it the faster you'll scroll.

Now for FPS's looking up down left and right are likely to be handled the same way. The only real difference being that your entire television set will be the icon.

So if you point at the floor, you'll look straight down really quickly, and if you veer off just a few inches to the right of your TV set you'll rotate to the right fairly slowly.

If this is the controll scheme they use, then no matter the direction you won't be able to do the click and reload bit like you could for Rail-Based shooters. Well, you could but that'd disable the ability to shoot as you turn, which would probably cause problems.

Plus, with such a heavy emphasis on distence and such already, further relying on that feature is likely to cause large amounts of errors, most likely on the user end.

Simple interfaces should be reserved for simple actions. Just because you can create a fighting game with 1000 different speciel moves on the NES controller, doesn't mean you should.

Furthermore, it doesn't really make sense to load so much onto that feature when you have both adaquate buttons and an analog stick to use.

So I'll reiterate.

z1=jump
z2=crouch

A=reload
B=shoot

Up/Down = Weapon Scroll
Left/Right = Invantory Scroll (Flashlights and such.)

Analog= Movment
SpacialMouse= Aim/facing

This is actually a really user friendly interface in comparison to the standard Keyboard/Mouse setup on the computer. So it should work pretty well.

[Vuldari]

...fine...fine...so pointing off-screen would not work.

But if I'm going to play a game on the revolution system, I will want to play it in ways that only the new controller will allow. Otherwise...what was the point of creating such a radically different controller in the first place?

...though I'd surely look the fool while doing it, I'd love to play a FPS game in which I crouch in-game by crouching in real life, reload with a gesture instead of a button press, strafe by actually strafing, thwack a baddie over the head with my sniper rifle by swinging my controller in the air, and "popping a cap" in some poor dudes head Gangsta' Style on a whim by twisting the controller in mid air and miming the move with my hands (all being trasnslated on-screen in real time).

...sure...if you are intending to play "competitively", like in an online match, then you would definately have a distinct advantage by using a controll scheme more akin to a PC Keyboard/Mouse configuration, like the one you described. (This setup, along with Dual-Analog controller schemes actually often allows a player to do simultanious strafe/run/sniping moves that would be impossible in real life...which is why so many people like those setups I think.) Likewise, I'm sure that some 3rd party developers will design thier games with "classic" controll schemes available that utilise the "Expansion Controller", so they will play exactly like thier PS3 and 360 counterparts.

However, I think the games would be more FUN if everyone played them more creatively.

...but that is a matter of choice. You play your way...I'll play mine.
Like I said...all good games of this kind have customisable controlls, so you can play them any way you want.

"...Viva le differance..."
"...Viva le Revolution!..."

[WolvenOne]

Um, actually, those sensors as far as I can tell are designed to only pick up the spectrum of light beamed out by the controllers. If that's the case then they wouldn't be able to pick up gestures and such as those are reflected at different wavelengths.

I should also note, adding camera's that can pick up general wavelengths of light would dramatically increase the manufacturing costs. So I somewhat doubt Nintendo will do that.

[Vuldari]

Um, actually, those sensors as far as I can tell are designed to only pick up the spectrum of light beamed out by the controllers. If that's the case then they wouldn't be able to pick up gestures and such as those are reflected at different wavelengths.

I should also note, adding camera's that can pick up general wavelengths of light would dramatically increase the manufacturing costs. So I somewhat doubt Nintendo will do that.

Cameras? WTF are you talking about?

The sensors detect if the controller is Near the sensors, far from the sensors, above the sensors, below the sensors and any combination inbetween to accurately approximate the position of the controller in relation to the TV (which the sensors assume is where they are).

The movement of the controller is calculated by a combination of sensors and input sources to understand what the player is doing with the controller. The sensors do not "see" anything but the triangulated point where they determine the controller is. (I was NOT suggesting that it can read your body movements. Those sensors are not mini "Eye-Toys"...that would be expensive and silly...though cool)

For Example: -How it could know I'm holding a "Virtual Gun" Gangster style-

*The input from the sensors positioned near the TV tell the system that the controller has been lifted upwards.

*The gyroscopic sensors within the controller tell the system that it has been twisted on its side, and is pointing at a slight angle downwards.

*the exact direction that the controller is pointing is further confirmed and defined to pin-point accuracy by the input from the sensor on the tip of the controller which sees that it is pointing at just such a point on the TV screen. (Which happens to be a bad guys head in the game.)


--thus, the game knows that the gun corrisponding with the game controller should be raised higher, twisted sideways and aiming dirrectly at the bad guys head.

"...Ta DA!..."


...likewise with "Strafing" or "crouching". OF COURSE it doesn't know that your "body" moved. It would register those movements by seeing that the controller has moved laterally left or right, or that the controller has just dropped to about knee level. (which would happen if you suddenly crouched down, with the controller. Naturally, you could easily fool the system by just holding the controller down low, or by dropping it by mistake.)


I'm sorry if I was not clear before. The Revolution CAN NOT read body movement. It only reads the movement of the controller, so long as it remains within sensor range. (which I hear is actually quite far).

I hope I've cleared that up.


[Edit:]

Here is a quote from IGN, whose editors actually got the opportunity to hold the controller (Lucky $%#$) and know what it does, and how it works.

Q: What exactly is so special about the Revolution controller?

A: The Revolution controller may look like a stylish television remote, but there's a lot more to the device than its glossy exterior suggests. The remote-like peripheral, which has been called the "free-hand style controller" and "pointer" by Nintendo, interacts with a sensor bar placed above, below, or near televisions. The bar contains two sensors that communicate with the controller using Bluetooth technology. The marriage transforms the pointer into a virtual wand of sorts, enabling users to move objects and characters in games simply by moving the peripheral. The sensors read the pointer's every move in real-time space. They can detect up, down, left and right motion, and also translate forward and backward depth. The controller's sensors also recognize twisting, rotating and tilting movements. In short, any motion made by arms and wrists can be translated to Revolution games.

[WolvenOne]

Okay, still, there's only so much that this thing can triangulate and I suspect that if you throw all aspects of gameplay onto the one feature it'll go from simple to unnecceserilly complicated.

So, for the sake of keeping the gameplay simple and straight forward, I would opt to use the buttons available on the primary controller and the analog extension.

That doesn't mean you cannot toss or or two extra features onto it.... though I would avoid making knife use one of them. Primarrily because the movments for a knife slash are awefully similer to the movments for spacial navigation.

Instead you could do something like.... I dunno, flip the controller around and swing it to swipe people with the butt of your gun.....

...er... actually, scratch that, it'd be kinda ackward with that cord going out of the back into the analog extension. Oh well, it's still a viable example. If you can think of a use for that feature that exists outside of the core gameplay, it's fine to integrate it.

[Vuldari]

Suggestion..."ACTION BUTTON"

Movement of the controller normally controlls character movement, but hold down the Action Button and you take direct controll of your characters hands (and whatever is in them) instead. All buttons would take on sencondary functions. Hold down the A button and reach out with the controller to touch a controll pannel, or pick up a rock, or tap a guy on the shoulder. Swing or jab with the controller while in A mode, and you melee attack.

...so on and so forth...

It could be the birth of a totally new genre...First Person "Emersion" Games.

I think you are right WolvenOne, in that you would not want to play a Game Like UNREAL, or HALO with such a complex controll scheme. It would make fast paced, twitchy games like that slow to a crawl.

However...Imagine a "Survival Horror" game where you had to actually reach out with your *Hand (*aka, "controller") to pry a zombie off of you that has latched onto your shoulder.

...or an Action RPG like the "Elderscrolls" games, where you could actually reach out and pick up a book off the shelf...and then bean the book keeper with it because he charged you too much for that manuscript you needed.

Or a STAR WARS game, where you could actually participate in a Lightsaber duel, using your own moves, blocks and slashes. (Maybe even ONLINE?)


It is not trying to figure out how you could play OLD-STYLE games with the revolution controller that you should be thinking about.(That's easy. Just plug in the "Expansion" controller and play it OldShcool) ...it's the entirely new kinds of experiences and games you will be able to play with it that should be on your mind.

Playing a FPS game in which you actually have to hold the "gun" steady when you are sniping would be really hard...but DAMN...would that ever be a cool feeling.

[Vuldari]

...Behold...the next generation of videogames.

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/images/050919.gif

"I like your Money"
~Mr. Potatomoto

[Figarou]

...Behold...the next generation of videogames.

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/images/050919.gif

"I like your Money"
~Mr. Potatomoto

heh..as soon as the specs to the new controller is out, people start making fun about it.

[WolvenOne]

Action button, might work.... though it may similerly make it difficult to turn around and perform an action similtainiously.

You know, one of my college professors once had a motto that I've adopted for several aspects of my life and that is... "Simple is beutiful."

I actually feel that the interface you're suggesting is too complicated. Yes I know you want to do things differently but there'll be a lot of different and new things to experience with the controller already. We don't HAVE to pack all these new experiences into a single genre.

Oh, and a lot of what you've suggested, would probably fit into Myst like adventure games pretty well. Since those titles are not so action heavy, it makes sense to use the tilt/pointer for many more purposes.

[Renorei]

I look forward to a game in which there is no controller, just sensor bands that you put around your ankles, wrists, head (worn like a headband), and waist. Then I could move in real life and my game character could do as I do. I'm sure something like that isn't too far off.

[WolvenOne]

actually that'd be fairly easy to pull off. Might not even need sensor bands.

Take 2-3 Eye-Toys, place 1 on each side of the TV and possibly one to your side.

And.... well... bingo

The current Eye-Toy has a little problem with depth perception because it only has one camera. This set-up would handle depth perception to the point of being able to make a complete 3D map of your body.

with such a complete 3D map available, such an input device would be very reliable and highly immersive. However it'd also be somewhat expensive. ;)

[Renorei]

I think having multiple cameras might pose problems if you were playing multiplayer, with the other person in the same room. What do you think?

[Vuldari]

Action button, might work.... though it may similerly make it difficult to turn around and perform an action similtainiously.

You know, one of my college professors once had a motto that I've adopted for several aspects of my life and that is... "Simple is beutiful."

I actually feel that the interface you're suggesting is too complicated. Yes I know you want to do things differently but there'll be a lot of different and new things to experience with the controller already. We don't HAVE to pack all these new experiences into a single genre.

Oh, and a lot of what you've suggested, would probably fit into Myst like adventure games pretty well. Since those titles are not so action heavy, it makes sense to use the tilt/pointer for many more purposes.

...want to know what feels like a really complicated controll scheme to me?...Dual-ANALOG FPS controlls.

I absolutely, positively can not play Halo (on the X-BOX) or Timesplitters well with this set-up. It is just far too difficult for me to try to do precise movements with my left and right thumbs simultaniously.

Even though I have Played through Timesplitters 2 and 3 extensively, (earning many platimum medals in the challenge modes), no matter how much I use the default "Dual" controll set up, it still feels almost unforgivably aquard to me. I have to struggle with it constantly. ...I hate it... But it seems to be the most popular option for Console FPS games. (Many gamers were very angry that the "Metroid Prime" games did not have a 'Dual-Analog' controll option. I prefered the 'lock-on' system for that game, so I didn't mind at all.)

The "Dual" controll system is so difficult for me because the movements needed to controll your character just don't feel natural to me. However, aiming up by actually "aiming up", and so fourth will be as Natrual as could possibly be.

My favorite Console FPS controlls were actually the ones used in Goldeneye/Perfect Dark on N64. You were either running and gunning, or when you needed to AIM, you held down the "R" trigger and all of the controlls swithced to dedicated aiming mode. It did not force you to try to do both at the same time.

It's really a matter of preference, I guess.

In writing, the idea of holding down a button to make the functions of the main controlls switch and do something else sounds "counter-intuitive", but for me, it was like second nature to use.

In GoldenEye, the Analog stick normally controlled forward and backward movement, along with turning left and right, while the C buttons controlled "strafe" and Looking Up and Down...but when you held down R, suddenly the Analog stick controlled Up, Down, Left, Right, while forward and backward movement swithced to the C buttons. This allowed you to focus all our precision movements on aiming your weapon, while still leaving you with limited movement ability. (So you could still move forward and back, and strafe while aiming).

I'd love to see something like this make a return in the genre. Two different controll schemes for different situations, both available at the push of a button.



...and though we don't "NEED" to put all of those different kinds of experiences in the same game...it would be really cool if someone DID.

[WolvenOne]

Well, problem is that enemies arn't going to have that same handicap. They'll be able to run and shoot at the same problem easily.

Okay, yes, this system is sticking to the duel system, however the Spacial Mouse is so much more intuitive for this situation that it should be a lot easier.

Anyhow, I don't think you'll get games that arn't using two analogs. Even the Metroid Prime ported to the Revolution supposedly ran with a duel-controll mode. The controller demo commercial also seems to suggest that duel-controllers will be the norm for FPS games.

Though those that played it have said that it actually feels extremly natural and seamless compared to earlier gameplay interfaces they've used.

Oh, and I will agree that duel-analog feels, kinda funny to me. However this interface sounds comparitivly simple.