Mirror/Shadow Issues

Jamie · Post by **Jamie** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:13 pm

Obviously, this would be a question involving non-Freeborn werewolves, in fact it would probably only apply to shapeshifters in a magical or supernatural setting.
Do you like it when shapeshifters sometimes reflect their alternate form in a mirror, or when they sometimes cast an animal shadow while in human form or a human shadow while in animal form?
In a work of fiction, if this characteristic was present all the time, the shadow thing would give away the shapeshifter too easily, but for the mirror thing, it would be just like with vampires- keep away from mirrors.
If this characteristic tended to come and go (perhaps being present just a few moments pre-shift) it would be easier for a shapeshifter to hide it.

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:09 pm

It really depends on wether the alternative form is an actual physical shift, or just an illusionary form. It makes sense that the wolves have wolven shadows when in human form in Wolf's Rain, for example, because they are not actually turning into humans, rather they are presenting an illusion that effects the human mind, but not the properties of light.

Veruth · Post by **Veruth** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:17 pm

I like the idea of an altered reflection or shadow. Mirrors have a sort or revealing, magical quality to them, so it makes a really nice touch. Same with shadows. I agree with Terastas about physical vs illusionary shifters too. But I can see it happening with a physical shift too as long as it's magic that's involved. But not viral werewolves.

white · Post by **white** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:32 pm

Terastas wrote:It really depends on wether the alternative form is an actual physical shift, or just an illusionary form. It makes sense that the wolves have wolven shadows when in human form in Wolf's Rain, for example, because they are not actually turning into humans, rather they are presenting an illusion that effects the human mind, but not the properties of light.

Exactly. As my idea of a werewolf is very definitively physical, there would be nothing odd about shadows/mirrors, but I can see illusory shifting causing that sort of thing. To be honest, though, I think any half-decent projector of illusion should be able to do the same to shadows and reflections in most cases, only letting it slide when relaxed or presented with something that'd take far too much effort, like, for example, sunset/sunrise or some other time when shadows are really long, or when placed between mirrors (it'd take infinite effort to cover up an infinite number of reflections if it took any at all, right?).

Renorei · Post by **Renorei** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:39 pm

I don't like the shadow thing so much but I love the reflection thing. I think it would be great for a new werewolf (who hasn't TFed yet) to walk in front of the mirror one day and see themself in gestalt form staring back. That would be great.

white · Post by **white** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:42 pm

I can't see that actually happening, but it does make a wonderful metaphor for after the newbie knows what's going on.
*writes down*

Shadow Wulf · Post by **Shadow Wulf** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:31 pm

I really like the idea wolf rain came up. They should make a werewolf series where they have shadows in thier gastalt form. But it would have to be a bit of a drama series with enough action ofcourse, because all that shadow thing would be pointless. But anyway it would be very realistic if the werewolfs were to stay in thier form the whole time and cast illusions. Then we wont have to worry about the muscle expanding and the extra bones shifting.

KnownToBite · Post by **KnownToBite** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:38 pm

Unless it was illusionary as already spoken of, werewolves wouldnt cast a different shadow or reflection.

white · Post by **white** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:13 pm

Shadow Wulf wrote:Then we wont have to worry about the muscle expanding and the extra bones shifting.

To be honest, I think that we can (and have, largely) more easily explain that than we could a complete illusion like that.

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:28 am

Ok, I don't get it. Why have it where a werewolf casts his gestalt form in the mirror while in human form? Or a gestalt shadow on the wall/ground in human form? Why make it easy to give that werewolf away?

Or is it something only another werewolf can see?

Lupin · Post by **Lupin** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:39 am

Figarou wrote:Ok, I don't get it. Why have it where a werewolf casts his gestalt form in the mirror while in human form? Or a gestalt shadow on the wall/ground in human form? Why make it easy to give that werewolf away?

Or is it something only another werewolf can see?

Hmm, interesting idea. Especially if it start to happen before the person's first shift. I could see a character freaking out about all these giant wolf-men walking around and nobody else noticing them.

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:57 am

Lupin wrote:
Figarou wrote:Ok, I don't get it. Why have it where a werewolf casts his gestalt form in the mirror while in human form? Or a gestalt shadow on the wall/ground in human form? Why make it easy to give that werewolf away?

Or is it something only another werewolf can see?
Hmm, interesting idea. Especially if it start to happen before the person's first shift. I could see a character freaking out about all these giant wolf-men walking around and nobody else noticing them.

HA! That would be something!!

But I prefer scent instead of sight. A werewolf probably has a musky odor to him. Something another werewolf can recognize. (Even if he is in human form) But it takes a keen sense of smell in order to detect it. I'm not sure how someone before his 1st shift is going to react to that.

Lupin · Post by **Lupin** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:02 am

Figarou wrote:But I prefer scent instead of sight. A werewolf probably has a musky odor to him. Something another werewolf can recognize. (Even if he is in human form) But it takes a keen sense of smell in order to detect it. I'm not sure how someone before his 1st shift is going to react to that.

That would be more plauseable, yes. I think that having the character reacting to giant wolves walking around would be more visually interesting, though.

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:18 am

Lupin wrote: That would be more plauseable, yes. I think that having the character reacting to giant wolves walking around would be more visually interesting, though.

His reaction will be just like this.

http://www.alyon.org/generale/theatre/c ... y_live.jpg

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:57 pm

Ralith Lupus wrote:I can't see that actually happening, but it does make a wonderful metaphor for after the newbie knows what's going on.
*writes down*

This is really the only time I could picture a werewolf in any form looking into the mirror and seeing an alternative form -- on a metaphorical and/or psychological level.

In the movie Fight Club, for example, we all know that [spoiler]Tyler Durden only exists in the narrator's mind, but since everything is from his point of view, we see Tyler on screen most of the time. The only exception is when the point of view is given from a third person or unbiased source -- in the fight scene in the garage, for example, first we see Tyler beating the living snot out of the narrator, then the camera pans over to a survailiance camera just in time to see the narrator throw himself down the stairs[/spoiler].

The same thing could be done in a movie like Freeborn where the characters are extensively developed, at least so long as the differenciating shadows and/or reflections were not apparent all the time (IE: only durring first-person shots) and only used to reflect a character's perspective.

For example, a newly infected werewolf might look in the mirror and see a monster starring back at him even though he is in human form, or look around at a room full of pack mates and see shadows with pointed ears and tails behind them, because that's what he sees when he looks at them -- not people, but monsters to be feared. Just the opposite though, a seasoned werewolf like Jack, Donna or Ray could look in the mirror, even when in gestalt form, and recognize themselves not as werewolves, but as individuals, which could be represented by seeing their human form in the mirror.

You could even represent a perspective by shadowing in unconventional states. If there was ever a point in the movie where Jack payed a visit to his "gone wild" father, for example, the first shot might show a wolf approaching Jack at a side angle, then the next shot could be of the wolf approaching the camera and casting a human shadow or reflecting a human form in a nearby body of water.

Or it wouldn't even have to be a werewolf. A werewolf hunter like William, for example, might be depicted via a first-person shot in a crowded area like a mall or a city park with everyone casting werewolf shadows.

You could also use the werewolf shadow to symbolize the secret itself. If one werewolf were in a room with one or more individuals that could prove hazardous to the pack if the existence of werewolves were known, part of the scene could involve an overhead shot of the werewolf's head with him casting a werewolf shadow behind him.

It'd be a great emotional effect, but I doubt it would be a natural one.

Celestialwolf · Post by **Celestialwolf** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:01 am

I think werewolves should cast shadows and have reflections normally like anything else.

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:04 am

Lazywolf wrote:I think werewolves should cast shadows and have reflections normally like anything else.

yup...I agree

Lupin · Post by **Lupin** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:44 am

Lazywolf wrote:I think werewolves should cast shadows and have reflections normally like anything else.

I figure it depends on the plot line. If it makes sense within the context of the story for the werewolf to cast a different shadow (by magic or something) then I won't have any problems with it.

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:59 pm

Lupin wrote:
Lazywolf wrote:I think werewolves should cast shadows and have reflections normally like anything else.
I figure it depends on the plot line. If it makes sense within the context of the story for the werewolf to cast a different shadow (by magic or something) then I won't have any problems with it.

If magic has something to do with it, then thats a different story.

Lupin · Post by **Lupin** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:07 pm

Figarou wrote:If magic has something to do with it, then thats a different story.

Yeah, you can pretty much pull anything when magic is involved.

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:08 pm

Lupin wrote:
Figarou wrote:If magic has something to do with it, then thats a different story.
Yeah, you can pretty much pull anything when magic is involved.

Thats what writers turn to if they have no other methods.

Lupin · Post by **Lupin** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:18 pm

Figarou wrote:Thats what writers turn to if they have no other methods.

You'd think that, but the writers of Star Trek have proven you can do all sorts of bizarre things with pesudoscience when you run out of ideas.

How many ways can a holodeck fail?

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:23 pm

Lupin wrote:
Figarou wrote:Thats what writers turn to if they have no other methods.
You'd think that, but the writers of Star Trek have proven you can do all sorts of bizarre things with pesudoscience when you run out of ideas.

How many ways can a holodeck fail?

When it comes to dragons, witches, werewolf stories, magic comes to play. Any type of science won't work in that type of situation.

In Star Trek, yes. It will make sence using any type of science.

Lupin · Post by **Lupin** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:26 pm

Figarou wrote:When it comes to dragons, witches, werewolf stories, magic comes to play. Any type of science won't work in that type of situation.

In Star Trek, yes. It will make sence using any type of science.

Except for that epsidode of Voyager wher Paris and Janway turn into giant Lizards.

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 2:29 pm

Lupin wrote:
Figarou wrote:When it comes to dragons, witches, werewolf stories, magic comes to play. Any type of science won't work in that type of situation.

In Star Trek, yes. It will make sence using any type of science.
Except for that epsidode of Voyager wher Paris and Janway turn into giant Lizards.

Its called mutation. Science can alter a human form in many ways. No need for magic there.