Werewolves and science

[Celestialwolf]

Okay. I just got that info from a documentary I saw once. If I didn't explain it very well, sorry: but it still makes sense to me.

I don't know how else to say it, and I don't have any links to back me up, so if you're confused, just ignore it I guess.

[white]

Well, let's have some of these links. However you use your mind, all you can physically effect are your muscles.

[Lone_Wolf]

You know I've always thought such physical changing back and forth to be highly unlikely, but it occurred to me today that maybe not so much. How could this occur? Cell dedifferentiation and redifferentiation. Essentially, cells that were once muscle can become bone or other tissues and move as needed. This does in fact happen in nature, usually triggered by loss of limbs in salamanders and starfish.

The genome of the individual contains a variety of genetic information, which at any given time can be turned on and off by various triggers. In this cas,e the loss of a limb causes genes to be activated in cells near the site of injury. It is these cells that dedifferentiate first into cells that are capable of forming any type of tissue (these are known as STEM CELLS). No one is sure how the cells organize themselves but what is known is the cells end up reforming the structure that is missing (from the point of injury outward). In human beings this does not normally occur, but since so much of the genetic code is shared and since it is universal, scientists are trying to figure out if it could be used to help regrow lost human limbs.

What does this mean to WW transformations? Well, it's no more improbable than the existance of WWs to begin with. If indeed there were a creature that could transform, it could be via a mechanism similar to the regrowth mechinism in other animals that have the ability to regrow limbs. Of course, this could also be logically segwayed to such ability for WWs to regrow limbs or heal better than normal humans.

I apologise for complexities above, I tried to keep things general since most of you probably are not in the field of Biology.

Thoughts?

[white]

Thoughts? My first thought is "Yay! Someone who knows cellular biology! We need one of you around here."

We've known about this thing in general for a while; search for 'mice' on these forums and you'll see a lot of discussion and links to information about someone who accidentally triggered this mechanism in some mice, where it became heriditary, and could even be given to non-regenerating mice by injecting something (can't remember quite what) from the regenerating ones (wonderful news for us wannabe werewolves). This gives us a very good excuse for things like very slow (over the course of months or even years) limb regeneration, but has two problems: First, it's far too slow for a transformation or even accelerated healing. The latter could probably be done with some intelligent tweaking of the genetic code (the knowledge for which we still lack, but it's probably only a matter of time), but bringing it up to the amazing rate of the former is stretching it a bit. Are you sure that some cells actually change into stem cells, as opposed to creating them? If that's the case, then there's hope for shifting werewolves yet; standard regeneration might be awfully slow, but cell type changes indicate that what we want could eventually be done.

[Lone_Wolf]

...two problems: First, it's far too slow for a transformation or even accelerated healing. The latter could probably be done with some intelligent tweaking of the genetic code (the knowledge for which we still lack, but it's probably only a matter of time), but bringing it up to the amazing rate of the former is stretching it a bit. Are you sure that some cells actually change into stem cells, as opposed to creating them? If that's the case, then there's hope for shifting werewolves yet; standard regeneration might be awfully slow, but cell type changes indicate that what we want could eventually be done.

According to my developmental biology class last semester, they are indeed the very same cells. I do not recall the experiments where this was shown; I'll have to see if I can find any of that in my old text. The rate IS indeed quite slow. Another issue is of course the problem of the increased perceived mass of werewolves. That would mean extra cells. Very fast cell dedifferentiation, divisions and redifferentiation?

Well IIRC a division every couple hours is considered fast due to the need to copy DNA. So, this could be a snag. And again, the process of limb regeneration as found in test animals like you said is over a period of months or more. Lastly you're right, it does not explain any sort of acceleration of a healing process, at least directly, now that I think of it more. So, not the Holy Grail for sure. Merely a way to explain a possible way that could occur. As you know in science, sometimes thousands of pathways are looked into before a solution is found (even if werewolfs were found to exist and could be studied, it would likely take a looooooooooonnnngggg time).

[white]

It's not a holy grail. But since the cells are actually changing themselves, it's a very promising find; it gives us hope that what we dream of is possible, and not just fantasy. It might be yet distant from our goal, but it is a large step in the right direction.

On to the mass issue. In my view, there's no actual mass change; the wolf form would be, compared to a normal wolf, unbelievable large and strong, and the gestalt form would likely be a bit thin. However much science may advance, I suspect the laws of thermodynamics will still be around for quite a while. If a mass change is absolutely necessary, I had a theory a while back that perhaps some form of fusion/fission could take place, combined with an efficient energy storage mechanism; nigh impossible to imagine the details of, but it has quite a few benefits. For one thing, given near-100% efficiency, it would provide the standard great hunger before the first shift, and then allow future shifts with the use of much less energy.

[Lone_Wolf]

Hmm... now where are our nuclear fusion/fission experts when we need them? We need to get them started straight away! It just goes to show you how complex life is, and how much it should be appreciated. Obviously you've spent a lot more time pondering such processes in this particular realm than me.



As a science major, this type of thing does interest me greatly.

[white]

I may have spent more time pondering, but for now I lack the background to go far bast vauge speculation. I plan on majoring in genetics once I get into college, perhaps even going as far as a PhD, but that's in the future. A nuclear energy-mass storage/conversion system would be all but impossible to implement biologically for the purposes of creating a werewolf, and even less likely to actually evolve; I use it primarily to demonstrate that science doesn't explicity disallow this sort of thing, and it's only the fact that we haven't seen rapid shapeshifters before, really, that makes it seem so impossible to us.

[Scott Gardener]

Fluffing up fur can make one look a lot larger without actually gaining mass. A 150 lb. human is normal, possibly small. A 150 lb. wolf would be enormous by wolf standards, but about right for what a lot of people have in mind for the lycanthropic wolf form. A 150 lb. lycanthrope in Gestalt form would probably stand a bit taller than the human form--at least a good six inches maybe upwards to a foot, depending on how much of the foot shifted into digitigrade hind leg and how little the thigh shrunk.

As for cell differentiation, that's conceivable with slow shifting, but for fast shifting--a minute or so--it would involve a lot of metabolic tricks. Still, it's an option for possibilities. My werewolves have cells that are designed to shift on a moment's notice, absorbing or dumping cellular components. One of the trickiest parts is the tail, though getting neurons to squash and their support cells to squash with them in the brain is probably the hardest thing.

[Apokryltaros]

One of the trickiest parts is the tail, though getting neurons to squash and their support cells to squash with them in the brain is probably the hardest thing.

Maybe they have recoil units?

[Lupin]

Hmm... now where are our nuclear fusion/fission experts when we need them? We need to get them started straight away!

Heh, that's not something that be possible wit current techology. We're barely getting to the breakeven point with giant nuclear fusion reactiors, and fission requires elements that undergo radioactive decay, which isn't something you want inside your body.

[Lone_Wolf]

Heh, that's not something that be possible wit current techology. We're barely getting to the breakeven point with giant nuclear fusion reactiors, and fission requires elements that undergo radioactive decay, which isn't something you want inside your body.

I know I know, was just referring to the amount of thought he'd put into theories and such. Talk about causing more problems than it solves... yikes!

[Apokryltaros]

Wait, are we talking about "nuclear" as in "nuclear physics," or "nuclear" as in "nuclear biology"?
There's a HUGE difference, given as how one is refering to the nucleus of atoms, and the other refers to the nucleus of living cells.

[Lone_Wolf]

I believe the concept was referring to energy storage and so on an atomic level versus cell nuclei. Though, it's not my concept to I would have to turn to make sure I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth

[Lupin]

Wait, are we talking about "nuclear" as in "nuclear physics," or "nuclear" as in "nuclear biology"?
There's a HUGE difference, given as how one is refering to the nucleus of atoms, and the other refers to the nucleus of living cells.

Well considerng he was talking about mass change and energy storage, I would say the first one.

[Alteron]

It could simply be that WWs are more dense then true wolves or true humans...
...
No, not that type of dense;)
What I mean is, the bones, muscles, tendens and such of WWs could be denser then a human/wolf's.
Granted, this is applying OLD marvel comic logic... but at least back when I was young they tried to EXPLAIN things using something resembling 'real' physics... as opposed to waving-hands 'It's maaaaaaaaaaaAAAAaaaAAAgic!'
Alright.
Muscles are specially degned organic tissue that can be easily described as elastic fibers, connected to the bone and each other via connective tissues of various names and types. The body sends a signal and the fibers eitehr contract or relax, allowing us to move.IF you took two muscles of about the same size, but differant density, the denser muscle (the one with heavier, more 'compact' fiber, would be able to contract and 'pull' more weight then the less-dense muscle.
That is, more or less and VERY simplified, how cats can jump as high as they do. They have denser, stronger, muscles and tendons in the hind legs, which allows them to make incredible jumps vertically.
Now, considering that differant muscle type can occur naturally, let us ignore for a few seconds the question of why WW evolved the ability to shift and look at 'why are they supposidly stronger'. Well, what if there had been other types of shapeshifters? WW's slowly evolved denser bones and muscles, etc while retaining a overall build that would allow manuverability and stamina.
And on the subject of 'why wolves'. Well, canines actually are a bit more succesful as a Order then felines. Canines exist in areas where cats have long since died out (like the artic) There are usually more types of canines in an area then there are felines. Canines, like humans, evolved into a shape that was 'general' rather then specific. Canines have molors and can eat plantlife to a limited extent. They are all endurance animals and can simply keep chasing prey until it gives up (canines also have a higher kill vs loss ratio then felines in general) They can work as a pack or lone creatures. There is not, really, much differance in the design of canines from one species to another.
Humans are, more or less the same. They have a build that is very general, adapting to differant enviorments very easily. They can eat plant life, big prey or little, they can hunt alone or in a group.
If a species evolved the ability to shapeshift... it could be that it started out as one or the other, and choose the other... because they are so simular. Generalists, adaptable, 'pack' mentality.
At least... that could be one possible scientific theroy;)
Maybe they were just made magically to be guards and struck out on their own one day when their masters were at play

-Alteron

[Celestialwolf]

Okay! I finally found a link that explains what I was talking about with the "thoughts effect water" thing. Here it is:
http://www.whatthebleep.com/crystals/

Also, I'm glad there are people here like Lupin, Scott Garderner, Raith-Lupus, and a few others who understand enough about biology and physics to discuss everything that has been discussed in the last 16 or so posts on this thread. I understand it, but could never explain it to someone like you guys do. I have a lot of respect for all of you.

[white]

First off, thanks for the respect I hope I don't make you regret saying that in this next paragraph.

Sadly, I can't return the thought to the link you post; it's littered with phrases like "PhD in Alternative Medicine", "Infared water absorbtion" (BS as far as I can tell; seems like a bunch of terms thrown together to sound academic), "5th dimension of the soul", and miscellaneous other things that really bring forth the "Don't believe everything you read" thing. Until someone from a well-known university with a degree in the sciences backs this guy up, I'm putting that on the pile with the tabloids.

Alteron: The density theory has its benefits, but as Scott points out, we have plenty of mass already. It's not really a problem, unless you want to get rid of some mass to assume a more realistic wolf form.

Apokryltaros: Nuclear as in physics.

Lupin: Yeah. The sort of genetics we're throwing around isn't possible with current technology (or knowledge, at least) either, rather it's what might be possible. Again, that example exists mostly to point out that there's no particular reason that shapeshifting shouldn't work; there's certainly a better way to do the same thing, and probably even one that could be thought up in this day and age. Now if only we can actually implement that better way...

[Ultraken]

I gave up on trying to treat werewolves scientifically a decade ago, as it's just easier to chalk it up to something paranormal. And that's coming from Mr. Science Nerd, so that's saying a bit.

The running joke when I was in college was that werewolves had to pull mass from somewhere, so we established that they pulled it from the Dimension of Bureaucrats. If a Bureaucrat (or part of one) disappeared from the Dimension of Bureucrats, no one cared--filling out the paperwork was too much hassle, and it was Someone Else's Problem. This was, of course, Very Silly.

[white]

*hhgttg alarm flashes*

As has been discussed before, mass needn't change. The Gestalt form appears larger due to fur, and is taller due to digitigrade stance, and the wolf form is just a whole lot more 'uber' than a normal wolf.

[Celestialwolf]

Sadly, I can't return the thought to the link you post; it's littered with phrases like "PhD in Alternative Medicine", "Infared water absorbtion" (BS as far as I can tell; seems like a bunch of terms thrown together to sound academic), "5th dimension of the soul", and miscellaneous other things that really bring forth the "Don't believe everything you read" thing. Until someone from a well-known university with a degree in the sciences backs this guy up, I'm putting that on the pile with the tabloids.

Heh. That's okay. To tell you the truth, I didn't even read everything on the link I posted- it had the name of the documentary, and it was what I was referring to, so I posted it. I see why it doesn't sound legit, now that I go back and read the whole thing. I still think it's an interesting theory, though.

The running joke when I was in college was that werewolves had to pull mass from somewhere, so we established that they pulled it from the Dimension of Bureaucrats. If a Bureaucrat (or part of one) disappeared from the Dimension of Bureucrats, no one cared--filling out the paperwork was too much hassle, and it was Someone Else's Problem. This was, of course, Very Silly.

That sounds like something from The Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy or the movie Brazil.

[white]

Thus my previous post

Yes, it certainly is an interesting theory, I just find it hard to give it much credit. Stuff like that does catch my interest from time to time, though, as noone has yet to prove that such things aren't possible, and it makes sense that such an unusual theory would be rejected by the mainstream.

[vrikasatma]

Werewolf as literal — Man/Wolf, a symbiosis.

Somehow, a wolf and a human relate to each other in such a way that they physically merge into one form, which through some phenomenon allows the twain to express various mixtures of the two contributing anatomies.

The gestalt would be the apex of the physiological pyramid, a perfect blend of human and wolf features down to the molecular level. The Were/Wolf could toggle more towards the Were, or in the other direction towards the Wolf.

Also, having packed twice as much matter into the same-sized package, would make the Were/Wolf very *tough* — natural armour due to the density. A knife, a bullet, would have harder time penetrating and wouldn't go far: it's the same principle as trying to shoot down a human who weighs 600 pounds, the bullets are less likely to hit vitals. You'd need incendiary, high energy or armour-piercing bullets shot from, essentially, an elephant gun.

Borrowing heavily from the "science" behind the Supreme Being in the movie, "The Fifth Element." Remember how her DNA was wrapped dozens of times in a dense cluster instead of the open double-helix we all know and love?

[Lone_Wolf]

That sounds like something from The Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy or the movie Brazil.

Brazil... ahh... my favorite movie of all time

[Ultraken]

A hybrid wouldn't necessarily have to be twice the size of either form, as much of the mass could be common--we do share a fair amount of biology and structure with animals, after all. The amount of "extra" mass available is pretty much an arbitrary constant; I picked 25-50% of human-form mass as a decent random value for a werewolf. Wolves aren't tanks after all (as there are other kinds of animals for that), but they do need to have a little something to give them presence in gestalt form.

(That arbitrary 25-50% figure happen to be a convention I use for my illustrations and stories. Werewolves are indeed stronger, faster, and tougher than normal people, mostly from improved physical fitness and larger size, but partly from supernatural ability. They not superhero level, though, able to leap tall buildings etc., but that's partly for storytelling reasons--I like some sense of balance, and limitations build character. My weres are somewhat more "anthro/furry" than most fictional representations, retaining human intelligence and wearing clothes, but that's just me, so YMMV.)