Pack Sociology and Behavior

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
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Post by Black Shuck »

I suppose I'll use my group as an example/suggestion/answer, lol. My group isn't really the outcasts or the "weird kids" even though the other kids think we are (I guess we are after making Pope John Foil III with tinfoil and a pop bottle :lol: ). Anyways, one member is always bringing new members in, who are always younger. Some of us get kinda irked with it, but we put up with it. Despite we're always getting new members, they never stay permanently and so the four of us are the original and the core I guess you'd say. The reason I don't say we're outcasts is because even though some kids say stuff to me, I'm not ostrasized (sp?) nor was anyone else. We did it to ourselves I guess, but we don't shun people and well, if newer, younger members are always brought in I suppose that means we're not anti-social either. I think that werewolves would tend to seek out like-minded werewolves, you know? The jocks would hang with other jocks and because of the comptetive nature, they might have a ranking order, but they'd all be pretty friendly with each other. No rank squabbles or anything, unless someone got upset (like "I play football 10 times better than you! I'm better! I should be more important!" or something like that). It'd probably just be a little more tense than the "outcasts" and such.


I think some canine traits would show up in human behavior (I typed "behaviour" and I'm not Canadian, Australian, or British. I don't even live near them and I type like them without meaning too, lol). I believe that whether you showed the front of your neck or the back would depend on how you were raised, you know, manners and the like. Or might boil down to personal preference or the people you hang with. Very interesting thought though :D I think the same would prove true for wolf form. Just how you were raised and other factors coming into play.


As for pack structures, I think it would depend on the pack. City packs might have tighter structures if the pack members lived in areas where you needed to look out for each other and have a leader to lead. I think of my town as rural and the only sort of tight structure I can really see (school kid wise, but not in a school setting) would be the rednecks getting together to hunt. That might cause some squabbles with rank ("No, my way's better! If we go around and sneak up"). Squabbles wouldn't arise in groups that went out to chill and have fun, just where something mattered, like bagging a deer or whatever. So, I think the city packs would be more rigid because if the members live in the "bad side of town", they'd have to look out for one another and someone would rise as a leader because they are more qualified.

The view toward would probably vary. Some groups would take them in, like how some groups at schools just adopt the new kid, others would completely ignore them or harass them. I view it like high school because I find it amazing how cruel the kids in my school can be to one another and that for some reason, high school kids are just rowdy :roll: If someone was part of an elite pack and went with someone from a "lower" pack, the members of the elite would probably be pretty pissed, and maybe even the members of the other pack would feel the same way. If those two left, the remaining members of both packs would probably hold a grudge. The packs might split with the loss of leaders, or someone might take their place and the pack would stay together.

A lot of my views, now that I really think about them, seem to be high school situations, but being a teen I guess that's natural :lol: I guess some of the scenarios might hold true for non-school situations. Heh, maybe my opinion will change once I'm out of highschool and finish college :lol:
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Post by vrikasatma »

Humans, as a so-called primate, are damned strange, though. We probably wouldn't last three minutes in a baboon troop.

Take for example, the social practice of mooning. It's supposed to be mocking, a sign of disrespect. By primate (and canine, and feline) standards, though, it's a signal of submission. I also cite smiling: a chimp reads a smile as a fear reaction.

My guess would be that our smile didn't come from watching primates, but our exposure to canids. No-one can say for sure: hominids didn't portraitize themselves before Cro-Magnon and they only did rarely.
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Post by Alteron »

vrikasatma wrote:Humans, as a so-called primate, are damned strange, though. We probably wouldn't last three minutes in a baboon troop.

Take for example, the social practice of mooning. It's supposed to be mocking, a sign of disrespect. By primate (and canine, and feline) standards, though, it's a signal of submission. I also cite smiling: a chimp reads a smile as a fear reaction.

My guess would be that our smile didn't come from watching primates, but our exposure to canids. No-one can say for sure: hominids didn't portraitize themselves before Cro-Magnon and they only did rarely.
Mooning began as an insult actually 'eat our $#!#' type of thing. Other cultures (such as the kelts) used it to show that they did not fear the enemy. Showing the area with no armor. *shrugs* Heck, that's where 'flipping someone the bird' comes from. The english bowmen showing their middle finger to the french to show that they could still fire their bows in the 100 years war.

Smiling is also a agressive reaction in primates and other mammals. Baring the teeth and such. A aggressive, alpha type chimp will show his teeth in a 'smile' at submissive chimps. Humans, while being effected by genes and evolution, are not truely controlled by it.
Dogs wag their tails to show happiness, yet it is simply a sign of 'amped emotions' agressive or otherwise. Lerned behaviors can end up being so ingrained over time that people don't even realise that they know it.
*shrugs*


Oh... On a side note, I meant no disrispect to the 'outsider' cliques in the high school social standing. When I was in high school *I* was an outsider myself (I'm weird, I admit this:wink: ), but I didn't fit into the clique as a whole. I was allowed to come and go, sit on the fringes or in the center. It was a comfortabel place to be, and my only fond memories of people in my age group are from those times.
*bows* My apologies if I came across otherwise, it truly was not my intention
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Post by white »

OT: I'm lucky. I've found a clique of people almost as weird as me :)
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Post by Lone_Wolf »

Takes a weirdo to know one!

:lol:
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Post by Black Shuck »

[quote="Alteron]
Oh... On a side note, I meant no disrispect to the 'outsider' cliques in the high school social standing. When I was in high school *I* was an outsider myself (I'm weird, I admit this:wink: ), but I didn't fit into the clique as a whole. I was allowed to come and go, sit on the fringes or in the center. It was a comfortabel place to be, and my only fond memories of people in my age group are from those times.
*bows* My apologies if I came across otherwise, it truly was not my intention[/quote]
I took no offense :D I'll even admit I'm weird too :wacko:
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Post by white »

We're on the 'net a lot, and at a werewolf forum, no less. Of course most of us are weird!
Sanity is relative.
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Post by Lone_Wolf »

Agreed! Be afraid, be very afraid of those who tread on strange message boards* in the wee hours of the night... in the dark... talking about something few would dare! Okay, okay, I'm freaking myself out now!

Back on task,
I would gander there might be some form of heirarchy in terms of a pack, for the safety of the group. Maybe an Alpha, as said before, and a few others/all others helping out to make sure they are safe. Also such a body might be used to deal with troublemakers within the group. All in all though, liek any other group, I would think it would take time for a new one to gain trust and friendship to the point where he/she would be considered an integral part of the group. Overall though, not terribly different from human beings. Different where it has to be due to the situation, but not completely foreign to us.
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Hmmmm.

Post by Alteron »

Question
What type of society would they HAVE?
Would it be like humans in general, which evolvoed as more or less, patriartical? Male dominate?
Or would it be like wolf society, which has a male and FEMALE alpha and male and female betas? A 'equal' type, both about the same build/strength?

Also, whould it be strongest/healthist who lead, or oldest/wisest?
or could you have the alphas are the adults in their prime, but the elders are honored and give advice and can even take command of the pack should the need arise?

Is it a stimga to not breed, as it is in other small population societies? What's the view on crippled WWs? WW with non-WW mates? Mental illness? All this has a direct effect on how humans interact with other humans... so I think it would have an effect on how WW interact with humans/wolves.
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Post by Black Shuck »

I think that the leaders would be male and female, more like wolf society, but maybe leaning a little more towards human society (I guess) in that the male leader has the final say. There'd probably be a beta group too, but there wouldn't be an omega except for a few cases where one member of a group is totally hated (hey, it happens).

Adults in their prime would probably lead, but the elders would be the real leaders. They just wouldn't have to get up infront of everyone and make announcements, speeches, or things like that, but they'd invovled with major decisions because of their wealth of knowledge.

I'd like to think that crippled werewolves would be viewed with some compassion and not totally ostracized. They'd be more likely not to have mates, but they might. A werewolf with a non-werewolf mate might be ostracized though, and if not, really picked on. Werewolves with mental illnesses might be frowned upon and left alone and for that reason probably not have mates. The crippled and the mentally ill might produce offspring, but the "okay" one would leave and not fess up to it (kinda like in I am Sam with Sean Penn).
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Post by white »

As always, I'm all for following the more lupine side. Truly equal relationships between female and male werewolves. Their physical abilities would certainly be equal.

I'm with Black Shuck on the leadership roles in relation to age and knowledge. Likely those in their prime would be the most visible, but age and knowledge would be respected and consulted heavily, possibly even deferred to.

I see the mentally ill and cripples being largely irrelevant; the increased healing ability would take care of most of the latter, and the former would be rare enough that I suspect there wouldn't be any standard.
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Hmmmm.

Post by Alteron »

I definitly agree ont eh male female, with males being slightly more dominate. Male wolves and humans are larger and stronger then females, after all.
Would the alpha and beta pair be mates, or could they just be the ones in charge, possibly mated to other WWs?
As for the omega... well that one would depend on pack size. In a small pack (let's say two family units... about 8 to 10 WWs) which is probably the size you'd get in most city/heavily populated areas. There probably wouldn't be an omega. Too small for a 'hated' member to remain safely.
In larger packs? There probably would be an omega... in a large enough pack, there might even be an omega CLASS
...
On the subject of classes. how fluid is the social structure? Can any WW challenge the alphas to become the 'leaders'? Can any WW fall to the position of omega? Or are they born into classes, where it's almost impossible to become something differant unless you leave?


Hmmm... I think this is what may exist. The elders are the 'real' leaders, but on the hunt, (or while being hunted) or in situations where you have to react NOW... dangerous situations and the like. Elders would probably lead in all other situations, the ones where there's time to think and the like.
Opinons?


Crippled WWs: I'd like to agree on the compassion, personally. But if worst came to worst, would they leave the crippled WW or try to save him/her?
non-WW mates: Yeah. A WW choosing a non- mate would probably have to leave the pack in order to remain with his/her mate. In fact, humans might even be considered 'pitiful' things... or even 'food'. Someone mating with a human would thus become... well at worst it would be viewed as a human getting married to a sheep.
mental illness: Uhh, I think it might be more then left alone. Someone with a mental illness is not just a danger to him/herself. He's endangering EVERYONE, because s/he is likely to reveal the secret in such a way that a large portion of humanity finds out. At the very least, the WW in question would be neutered/spayed to insure that the faulty genes don't pass on to the next generation. Best case for the individual after that would be being sent somewhere to live out his/her life without endangering the secret of the species. Worst case is death.
As for offspring (hey, would they be called a child or a pup?)... well an offspring of a WW with mental illnesses would probably be gelded the moment s/he acted odd (if not killed at birth) Offspring of a WW who was crippled by an accident or the like would probably be treated like normal, and the mate would not be embarressed. Offspring of a WW who was crippled/deformed at birth would probably not know who the other parent was, and if they were born misformed/crippled as well, they might even end up gelded.

Now I know that seems harsh, but I'm looking at human societies with smal populations in life styles with a high death rate. I'm lso looking at wolves. Based off that, this would seem the most likely. You can't have 'bad genes' in teh gene pool if you, as a species, are going to survive and wolves know this at the forfront of their mind, and humans know it subconciously. Reactions to mental illness, physical deformaties and criplling injuries are simply a reflection of that.

...I'm gonna get chased by a angry mob for even suggesting any of this, aren't I? :(

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Post by white »

I thought that male and female wolves had very similar builds?

I'd imagine the social structure as being quite flexible, just as that of wolves is. Keep in mind that packs don't generally get too large.

I like your ideas about leadership; that makes sense. In fact, I also agree with you about treatment of those crippled or mentally ill. It's violent, but that's life.
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*bows*

Post by Alteron »

Thank you for your praise! :D

And, actually, no, male canines are larger and stronger then females. It isn't as extreme as, say, lions, but there is a differance. My family breed shelties for several years (we were some of the breeders that helped decrease the skin cancer problems!! :D )
Anyway, male wolves are usually an inch or two taller at the shoulders, a bit heavier muscled (not much) and their heads are usually a bit squarer. Females are a bit slimmer and a bit more streamlined.
It's like....
Imagine to humans. Both wiry in build, and almost as storng... but the would still be a bit heavier and 'rougher' in build.
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Post by Black Shuck »

If it was a major mental illness, they might be driven out or locked up. I don't know why I was thinking minor ones :lol:

I don't really think that one would be born into a class, you'd just arrive there. If you were annoying and couldn't stop, you'd drop to the omega rank and you'd get picked on. I think one of the only ways you would born an omega would be if your parents did something really bad, like murder an elder or a baby human or desecrated something sacred, or married a human.

Alpha position could be challenged, but it wouldn't happen too often because the best one just ends up there. Leaders emerge, you know? That sort of thing. Of course, there's always someone who wants to be the top guy and'or thinks he's the better pick. They'll obviously challenge. Might be a fight, might be a vote amongst the pack or among the elders.

Alphas and betas being mates would be like the class thing: order in command just happens. I think there could be an alpha/beta couple or an alpha/alpha couple, but there could there also be an alpha who's mate is just another member. Alpha/omega or beta/omega seems kinda unlikely but it could happen. Oh, and I don't think the alpha and omega positions would be passed along to the heir, it'd go to who would be best. Everyone would raise their offspring to be a potential alpha as the alpha would be like the ideal individual. One would also want to be eventually wise as well.
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Re: Hmmmm.

Post by vrikasatma »

Alteron wrote:I definitly agree ont eh male female, with males being slightly more dominate. Male wolves and humans are larger and stronger then females, after all.
But, like humans, everything the alpha male does, he does for the alpha female. In a sense, the alpha female is "the power behind the throne," and the alpha male leads but he's a puppet king.
Would the alpha and beta pair be mates, or could they just be the ones in charge, possibly mated to other WWs?
I think they just came out with a study showing that wolf alphaship is a lot more complex and fluid than was previously thought. Sometimes the alpha pair aren't mates: sometimes the female doesn't mate with him, she mates with the beta male, which may or may not be related to the alpha male. My guess is this is a strategy towards genetic diversity, insurance that the alpha pair of the future aren't full-blood brother and sister (wolfologists, correct my math).
Wolf packs occasionally break up into sub-packs sometimes, right? In that case, each sub-pack gets its own pro-tem alpha until such time as they rejoin the main pack, where they once again come under sway of the "true" alpha.
As for the omega... well that one would depend on pack size. In a small pack (let's say two family units... about 8 to 10 WWs) which is probably the size you'd get in most city/heavily populated areas. There probably wouldn't be an omega. Too small for a 'hated' member to remain safely.
It's my feeling that the Omega isn't necessarily the "most hated" — that would probably be the pariah. There are wolves that trail packs but are hated and aren't allowed to join, for whatever reasons.
Sure, sometimes the Omega gets picked on but mostly he's just ignored and/or humoured ("Say, what about blah-blah-blah" "Yes, George, that's nice [walk away]"). It's like the guy in every group that whines all the time, does stupid things, has a lower IQ and/or personality disorders that bug the hell out of everyone else, but not enough to require ostracism.
On the subject of classes. how fluid is the social structure? Can any WW challenge the alphas to become the 'leaders'?
I would envision a WW pack structure to be fairly fluid. The alpha might be liberal enough to not hog all the glory for himself, but delegate on a sort of meritocracy scale. Whoever has the best skills to handle a given situation gets the (temporary) mantle of leadership (and responsibility).
In one of my live action Werewolf games, my pack alpha was quoted as saying, "A good leader is judged not on what he does, but on what he inspires others to do."
Can any WW fall to the position of omega?
Yes. Hecuba Regina.
Or are they born into classes, where it's almost impossible to become something differant unless you leave?
That's a caste.
Crippled WWs: I'd like to agree on the compassion, personally. But if worst came to worst, would they leave the crippled WW or try to save him/her?
I would imagine so. Wolves in the wild have been seen to bring food and protect their injured packmates. Humans certainly do this as well.
mental illness:
(snip)
At the very least, the WW in question would be neutered/spayed to insure that the faulty genes don't pass on to the next generation.
Or killed.
You can't have 'bad genes' in teh gene pool if you, as a species, are going to survive and wolves know this at the forfront of their mind, and humans know it subconciously.
Unfortunately humans rarely act on it...anyone who brings it up for discussion is usually put down by someone else playing the "eugenics/Hitler" card.
The closest analogy I can see to human reproduction mirroring wolf reproductive strategies is a hyper-religious family where only the husband and wife have children and they use their familial influence, to the extreme of beating children who step out of line and have sex, to keep the others from breeding. (I'll leave out the higher-than-it-should-be incidence of incest in human relationships, for the sake of balance. Wolves don't bonk their kids)
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Re: Hmmmm.

Post by Set »

Alteron wrote:At the very least, the WW in question would be neutered/spayed to insure that the faulty genes don't pass on to the next generation.
"Faulty genes" is not the only, or even the most common, cause of mental illness. You can have a family with the best genes possible and still come out with a sibling who's a complete whackjob. You can also come from a family with the worst possible genes and be fine.

I would think also that the type of mental illness would determine what the pack does with the individual in question. Not all mental illnesses make people hurt others or themselves. Not all of them make you a psychotic killer. You can be "mentally ill" and still be crazy, but harmless.

And really...do you think a werewolf would just submit to sterilization? Especially a male. I know how much they whine about the thought of losing their..."manhood". Where would they get a doctor to perform the procedure anyway? You can kill people by doing things wrong. Even if it is just the old snip snip.
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Post by white »

A harmless but mentally ill werewolf would still be a danger to the pack, due to the possibility of exposure. If it's not heridatary, I think they'd either be killed, or moved somewhere safely away from humans.

Submission would probably be a nonissue with the mentally ill; they'd be too detached to notice except for the pain. The physically deformed is another matter...
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Post by Silverclaw »

I agree with a lot already said.
In a pack, their would be a high ranking male and female(most of time mates) Their would be your second-in-command beta types, and omegas. Omegas are not always nessarily hated. Maybe just the weakest, or care less about rank and power. In wolf packs, a lot of omegas are sortof like pranksters, bringing up moral and starting games.
Anyone could be any position in a pack really. It the leader was a jerk making bad decisions, he could very well be forced down to a omega position by the others. Or an omega could just go bad-a** one day, challenge the Alpha and win.
Becoming mates with a human would be frowned upon. It is a risk. They would want the relationship to end, or have the human turned into one of them.
Crippled WWs would be taken care of by the whole pack most likely. That individual would have a high chance of being an omega.
WWs with bad a mental illness, would either be locked up or killed. They would be too much of a risk exposing WW existance.
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Post by Set »

Ralith Lupus wrote:Submission would probably be a nonissue with the mentally ill; they'd be too detached to notice except for the pain.
You've never been to the psych ward, have you? They're ill not oblivious. Alot of those people can fight like demons to boot.

"Kill the crazy one!" It's not as easy as it sounds. It's still murder no matter how you look at it. It also comes across like anyone with any defects whatsoever, anyone who's not perfect should be put down. Would you be able to do that? If you were turned into a werewolf today and your pack had a mentally ill werewolf, can you honestly say you'd have no problem killing him? No problem with the blood on your hands? With the fact you've taken the life of another? Then there's the issue of a missing person. Cops, much? It would attract far more attention than it prevented.
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Post by white »

Of course, the appropriate course of action would depend upon the details of the illness. I think the best solution would, in most cases, be relocating them to somewhere more isloated.
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Post by Silverclaw »

and then kill em :wink:
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Post by Timber-WoIf »

Allow me to go off on a tangent here, probibly rre-itterating many hthings. but you'll get over it.

A social structure i like to consider for werewolves (kind of, i find a structure like this unlikely in a modern world) is one similar to the Clan social structure in the BattleTech universe.

Clans society is a worrior-led caste system. They keep genetic matierial of successful warriors in vats, and use the matierials to create groups of children. these groups are called 'sibko's, and none in these groups are genetically engineered. Those born in the matter are called 'Trueborns' while those born naturally are called "freeborns." All trueborns are considered naturally superior to freeborns.

in werewolf society, trueborn = born with lycanthropy, freeborn = bitten.

Trueborn chilren are trained from an early age to become warriors. (starting at age 6 or 8, cant remember... ) They live a spartain llyfestyle, and Sibkos are pitted against eachother in various compitions. In these challenges, inferior children are either sent for training in a different caste, or are KIA.

At around 12 years, they are sent to millitary school to become Mechwarriors. Life is now extramly harsh, and by graduation time,a sibko of 20 would have been reduced to 3 or 4 potiential mechwarriors. All others have either been reassigned or KIA.

Freeborns are usually assigned to labor castes. But a few get the chance to be warriors. Most potiental freeborn warriors are KIA in unfair training games. (i.e. freeborns camp out in the woods with weak stun guns, trueborns are sent to hunt them with assault rifles loaded with live amunition.) Dispite the odds, some freeborn survive, and become warriors. even so, it is rare any freeborn sees any action inside a battlemech or in an imprtant battle.

to pass milt school, the student have to pass a trial of position. they have to defeat a veteran officer in a 1on1 fight. to lose means death. (this is true for mechwarriors, but im not sure about other warrior classes...)

to relate, o could see born werewolve being held in higher regard, because they are likely more in-tune with thier senses than a bitten werewolf. And i would imagine there would be trials to pass to gain various pack positions, many phisical.

clan socity has a caste system. there is a warrior caste, technican caste, atisian caste, laborer caste, warden caste, even bandit caste (note noone is assigned to the bandit caste, people fall into that one themselves) Warriors are the only caste that can hold any significant political position, and only if they have earned a bloodname.

The strong and proven werewolves lead the pack. no elections.

a bloodname is given only to warriors whom have proven themselves in a long, difficult tryal. It is hard to attain a bloodname, because only bloodnamed warriors get to have thier genetic material added to the clan's official gene pool. The first part of the trial is a series of massive free-for-alls, where 50+ mechwarriors all have at eachother at once, and doesn't end untill there's only one mech left standing. the victors of these trials then get bracketed and compete in a series of one on one fights, with the victor moving on onto the next bracket, continueing until only one man is left.

clans place little value on life itself, but a massive amount to honor and bloodnames. (there overdone sense of honor is one of the reasons they lost to the Inner Sphere douring the clan invasion. Ex: commanders bid for the right lead a campain. He who bids to use the smallest (and weakest) force wins.)

i would hope that werewolves don't share this quality.

oh, and clanners consider the Inner Sphere 'barbarians' and inferior to themselves in every way. another flaw that cost them, (i.e. Operation Serpent, [if you know what that is you get a kookie ...or bone, w/e]) the inner sphere makes up the vast majority of human population, and operates under a normal, modern society, with a touch of fudalism.

I could see werewolves having an attitude like this toward the rest of humanity, viewing themselves as superior. (though in thier case they're probibly justified, physically anyway)

meh, all i can think of now, mabie more if it comes to me. :|
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Post by white »

I think we all agree that werewolves aren't nearly so prone to prejudice. Any actual advantage born werewolves might have over bitten werewolves would likely be erased after several years past being bitten, and I at least see werewolves as being a lot more accepting. The leadership would, as has been discussed elsewhere, likely be split; a strong, charismatic werewolf would likely "lead" the pack, while consulting and giving respect to "elders." The "leader" would be primarily for when decisions need be made quickly, with longer-term stuff handled by the "elders".
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