Werewolves and talking

[Creature SH]

That's part of the point I was trying to make here... It would be almost impossible to understand.

Oh, and what I said was "I am friend.... mean no harm".

[Renorei]

Hmm, well I got "I am" right. And 'heart' and 'harm' sound similar. Heh, I was close!

Perhaps werewolf muzzles (in gestalt form) could have some semblance of human lips on the end of them. Not nearly as big and puffy as human lips, but perhaps as flexible or close to as flexible. Covered, naturally, in fur so as not to look silly. That would allow for them to form all or nearly all of the consonants.

[Terastas]

That's part of the point I was trying to make here... It would be almost impossible to understand.

Oh, and what I said was "I am friend.... mean no harm".

*nods* Point well made.

Oh well. A talking werewolf would have looked like something right out of The Polar Bear King anyway.

[Figarou]

I guess that we all agree that the common Werewolf couldn't use his lips and only minimal tongue. So I'd imagine it to sound a little bit like this:

http://www.mytempdir.com/238733

...woof.

What the...? I can burp-talk better than that!!

[vrikasatma]

I think a gestalt werewolf's voice would be stronger and richer, because it has a bit more lung power (bigger chest cavity) and more resonance chambres (such as, in the snout). I wouldn't expect a gestalt to get up and deliver a Shakespearean soliloquoy, but I could definitely imagine them being fully capable of speech. Like Moro in Princess Mononoke.

Side note: when I got home from the hospital, I got up to use the facilities and...it was painful. My cat ran to the door, maioued at me, I replied with a couple groans, and he went to get my mom in the other room. When I got out of the bathroom, she said, "He TALKED to me! Has he ever done that to you?" Naturally I didn't hear exactly what he said but she said he made some very recognizable sounds down in his throat (heh-heh..."Grandma, Diane fell down the well!" ). Kitty glossolalia? I've heard him distinctly say my name a couple times.

[Renorei]

I guess that we all agree that the common Werewolf couldn't use his lips and only minimal tongue. So I'd imagine it to sound a little bit like this:

http://www.mytempdir.com/238733

...woof.

After giving the idea more thought...I'm leaning towards disagreeing.

This is why:

Parrots don't have lips. Yet, they are still able to make nearly all, if not all, sounds that a human can make. The reason is because they have thick, fat tongues. I think it is plausible that the gestalt form could retain a tongue that is vaguely human in shape and size. This may not be likely, considering the rest of the head is wolven or mostly wolven, but it is nonetheless plausible.

Even if the gestalt form didn't naturally have a humanish tongue, I have always been of the opinion that experienced werewolves could shift individual body parts. That includes the tongue. In which case, they could easily shift to gestalt, while retaining their human tongue.

If we assume the gestalt has a predominantly human tongue or has the ability to retain one, that opens up a whole new range of possibilities, as far as gestalt talking goes. If we use parrots as an example (and also ventriloquists), we can assume that lips aren't necessary to form most human sounds. Of course, not using one's lips would require a lot of practice, but if parrots and ventriloquists can do it, why not a werewolf? Bs and Ps might pose problems, but I think that, for the most part, an experienced werewolf's speech would be understandable to a human, if not a bit garbled.

Of course, a brand new werewolf would have to learn to talk in gestalt from scratch. I think it would take them about as long or a little bit less long to learn to talk as it takes a person to develop the...ventriloquiy...skill (however that is spelled).

Thoughts?

[white]

I'm of the opinion that when a skill is necessary, it develops a lot faster. It might take a week or two to manage intelligibility, and from there the skill would slowly improve based on frequency of use.

[vrikasatma]

Not just parrots — a number of birds can "talk," mostly those in the crow family (crows, ravens, mynah birds, birds of paradise). The mechanism isn't the same as ours, though: they have what's called a "syrinx" as their vocal tract, basically it's a series of side-by-side pipes in their throats. And as mentioned before, wolf and human vocal tracts are virtually identical. They'd have to shift to an avian morphology.

I was thinking they'd talk like Moro in "Princess Mononoke," rather like a ventriloquist: the sounds are all made down in the throat with some modulation coming from the tongue and perhaps the teeth, but subbing out labials for dentals.

[PariahPoet]

Ok, forgive me for being redundant, but I thought this might be a better place for this idea.
I brought this up on the slang thread and got a couple positive comments, what do you think?

In the full canine form, where their palate would make full human speech very difficult, then I would think they’d only be able to say certain things, and the “human’ speech would, over time, deteriorate.

I know this is a bit off-topic, but I think it would be cool if an experienced ww could talk in (almost)full wolf form. I just got an interesting image where a wolf would need to communicate with a normal human but didn't want to change back for fear of his/her identity being revealed, so instead conciously changes his/her throat and mouth just enough to allow barely discernable speech. If done right, that could be a rather interesting effect.

[Ronkonkoma]

I think werewolves can talk, but only after practice and experiance. A born werewolf would definately have an advantage over any bitten werewolf in learning how to speak in gestalt form because of being able to learn at an early age.

part of the 'horror' of becoming a werewolf is losing one's humanity, and during that first change, losing the ability to speak clearly is frightening, and definately would need to have other pack members about to try and keep the poor fellow calm and not freaking out, and biting their own tongue off accidently

[Terastas]

Thanks Pariah. Also, here's what I said in response:

While this could lead to "talking animal" syndrome if done poorly, it would show that werewolves in wolf form are still intelligent. I don't mind it, as I'd rather have "werewolves aren't monsters; they're people"--regardless of form.

*nods* The whole talking animal bit isn't just questionable, it's hard to get right. It looks like The Chronicles of Narnia might have it down, but most people that tried the talking animals bit ended up with cheesy Disney-ish graphics like in Babe or Racing Stripes, or worse, like an animatronic blunder like that of The Polar Bear King.

For it to work in a movie like Freeborn, it would have to be a character with a noted linguistic talent to be even moderately realistic. Like I mentioned before in my thesaurus dump earlier on, it's possible that one of the unnoficial betas could be a werewolf with good people skills -- the mediator, if you will. Whoever got assigned that wonderful task would have to place a lot of value in their ability to articulate speech, so much that they might consider it necessary to learn to articulate while in shifted (especially if shifting involves a 'Red Zone' like the one I described in the same list).

What I'm trying to say is that there could indeed be a talking wolf, but the script would really have to well define and defend why that wolf can talk.

But before this gets too OT, we do have a whole thread on this.
http://www.calypso-blue.com/werewolf/viewtopic.php?t=28

[Jamie]

Ok, forgive me for being redundant, but I thought this might be a better place for this idea.
I brought this up on the slang thread and got a couple positive comments, what do you think?

In the full canine form, where their palate would make full human speech very difficult, then I would think they’d only be able to say certain things, and the “human’ speech would, over time, deteriorate.

I know this is a bit off-topic, but I think it would be cool if an experienced ww could talk in (almost)full wolf form. I just got an interesting image where a wolf would need to communicate with a normal human but didn't want to change back for fear of his/her identity being revealed, so instead conciously changes his/her throat and mouth just enough to allow barely discernable speech. If done right, that could be a rather interesting effect.

I absolutely agree. If it is clear that werewolves (or a particular werewolf) has the ability to shapeshift any chosen individual body part independantly of the rest of the body, then it would be totally understandable to see a bit of shifting in the throat and tongue (easy special effect to do too) and then see something that otherwise looked like a 100% wolf form talk. However, it would need to be clear that this could happen and that it had happened, otherwise movie watchers might have problems with their suspension of disbelief.

[sundog]

Technically, no, they shouldn't. Unless you want to give them a more human like mouth and lips. The lips are a big factor. If you give them lips they can control, then they can sing gospel for all I care. But if you keep those black canine jowls, it's just not possible.

[JoshuaMadoc]

.... I thought wolves' lips aren't stiff?

[sundog]

they can't move like people's lips. have you ever seen a wolf pucker up?

[Renorei]

they can't move like people's lips. have you ever seen a wolf pucker up?

Ventriloquist's and parrots don't need flexible lips to talk. Yet, they manage it anyway. A werewolf (especially if they are able to shift individual body parts, such as their tongue and vocal cords, etc.) would probably be able to accomplish this feat as well.

[Fenrir]

What about telepathy it would be an evolutionary need if they can't talk through there mouths there would be a need to communicate, so they would develop a mental ability to do so.

But then again that might leed into a hive situation but oh well

[sundog]

I suppose, but speech would be limited, with the typical, let's say "goldie" style werewolf. Seeing as it is part human, it'd make sense to incorporate a little bit of human lip to make them really able to speak.

[Ancient]

I find myself agreeing with Renorei's idea of an experianced werewolf being able to shift specific parts such as tounge and vocal cords. Seeing as one can talk without moving thier lips as I've seen refered to via ventriloquists and even parrots.

[Scott Gardener]

I figure it takes practice and sounds weird, but can be done. It might sound like someone from another country speaking your language. For example, in a lot of Japanese Anime, you'll hear bits of English dialogue thrown in. (I'm not referring to Anime dubbed in English, of course. I'm referring to the original language track, with English subtitles added.) You might think they were still talking Japanese, except the phonetic sounds sort-of match the words in the subtitles. Another good example of such is the "Iron Cuisine!" call issued by the Chairman in Iron Chef. (A hit show in Japan, it's available in the United States on cable TV, on the Food Network. I don't know about its availability in Europe, but I've seen a special edition episode that took place in France, so I would expect it to have a following there.)

Similarly, I would think that "lycanthropese" would sound sort of familiar and sort of not, like if one were reading off what a tablet PC's input panel thinks of each of my words on the first try.

[Shadow Wulf]

they can't move like people's lips. have you ever seen a wolf pucker up?

Ventriloquist's and parrots don't need flexible lips to talk. Yet, they manage it anyway. A werewolf (especially if they are able to shift individual body parts, such as their tongue and vocal cords, etc.) would probably be able to accomplish this feat as well.

Yes but arent parrots beak are set up differently from a wolf's. And no offence but I dont really like the idea of being able to shift individual parts like that. Mabey the hands or feet or a muscle growth or even a slight facial shift but thats about it. It will seem too corny and wierd for a werewolf to just shift its tounge. Scotts idea I like more, a werewolf can simply learn to talk with its muzzle and all.

[dnl]

What about telepathy it would be an evolutionary need if they can't talk through there mouths there would be a need to communicate, so they would develop a mental ability to do so.

But then again that might leed into a hive situation but oh well

Can we give them the ability hover and fly like neo too..come on that would be sick. I would gladly give up the ability to speak for just the hovering ability.

[Fenrir]

but evolution doesn't work that way you don't have a need to fly

[young_wolfbrother]

Yeah, but evolution doesn't work in the same way for telepathy. Evolution would take several generations to develop. Long before telepathy ever developed, they could have developed a sort of body language to communicate if they couldn't speak directly, superseding the need for vocal language.

As for the topic at hand, I believe werewolves would be able to speak, though it would be very difficult until practiced, and even when practiced, it'd be like listening to an unfamiliar accent, you just wouldn't be able to understand some words unless you were used to hearing it.

[sundog]

I think that between the whole parrot talk and being part human, that some form of speech would be possible. It'd be hard to understand and all that, kind of like a parrot, but you could understand.