Too "Eccentric" for 'Casual' fans? ...a problem?

[Vuldari]

I realise that much of this is insulting, and I am very, very sorry about that.

I didn't find it insulting at all. 'Course, I'm weird, so you may have said the most offensive thing in the world. (You didn't, but I have a point in there somewhere...)

To the claim "We The Pack Represent the majority of Werewolf fans, and their preferences and opinons", this is me tapping on your shoulder and saying..."...*cough*...ummm...no we don't. No we're not.".

Erm, I may be mistaken, but I don't recall anyone here saying that. Or are you basing this on the attitudes we display?

It's a general attitude I sense all the time around here, and I DO recall it being said more than once, though I don't remember the spicific threads or topics being discussed.

I think I see it most often when the subject of "Freeborn", when compared to other Werewolf films, comes up.

It's like...

"Hollywood should get a clue. Werewolf fans don't want to see films about Evil werewolves in bloody, T&A ripe horror films, like most of them are. They want to see what WE want to see...and we know this because We are 'The Pack' and we have spoken".



What inspired me to raise this debate from the dead was what happened in the original "Cold Blooded" thread.


If our Werewolves are made to look too much like sad, misunderstood victims of prejudice, and not enough like Monsters, we are all bound to get teased and laughed at...ALOT. The things those people said on that other forum, I feel, were only the tip of the iceburg.

...I just feel that some of us could afford to get a little forewarning that they should brace themselves for alot more of that in the future, once this project goes public, and be ready for it, rather than be taken by suprise when they realise that our "misunderstood victims of prejudice" are NOT cool in the eyes of Most.

...although I would LOVE to see Freeborn change the opinons of many of those people...


We are creating and supporting a very Unconventional idea here.

It will be alot easier for us to stand our ground against those who disagree with us if we all know WHERE IT IS WE ARE STANDING.

[Jarden]

How can we get more of those people to stick around? Any thoughts? :

We can tie them to logs and parade them through the streets!

[Renorei]

Hmm...I think I see what Vuldari means.

Personally, I consider myself to be more of a standard werewolf fan than one of the small minorities mentioned. I am not a therian, or a furry. I think that the average werewolf fan's opinions would more closely resemble mine than some of the other members of this forum.

I probably differ from the majority on the mind of a werewolf. Most people probably prefer the mindless killing maching approach. Personally, I still want them to be killers, but not of the mindless variety. I don't want them to be evil by default, but if they are evil, I'd think they'd be damn good at it. This one is actually a toughie, however. There's no way of knowing for sure what the average werewolf fan prefers in terms of intellect. But, I think most people would agree that a monster who methodically plots how to kill his victims is scarier than a big dumb bloodthirsty moron...but I don't know if the average person still applies that to werewolves.

However, I think that my ideas of what a werewolf should be like physically are fairly close to those of the average werewolf fan. The idea that werewolves should conform to the laws of conservation of mass is one that I NEVER heard anywhere, until I came here, and am still completely opposed to. I think werewolves should gain mass, and a lot of it. I can't be certain, but I think the average werewolf fan probably agrees with me.

Anyway, I really don't know. I'm just saying what I think.

Having said all that, I still don't think that the average werewolf fan has ever been totally satisfied with the werewolves portrayed in werewolf movies. They all leave something to be desired, in some area. Whether it's in intellect, or appearance, or whatever, they all fail in some way.

Basically, I think the average werewolf fan wants a werewolf that looks really badass. I don't think they care so much about whether they actually resemble wolves or not, as long as they look fierce and tough (hence why both Van Helsing and Underworld werewolves are popular). To find a way to satisfy both our desires to see a wolfy werewolf, and their desires for something kickass, I think the Freeborn werewolves could look something like Sidor's dyres, or maybe Goldie's Kierrn (NOT her anthro-wolves, however). The average person around here seems to want something that looks more like an anthro-wolf. I think the average werewolf fan would find this highly disappointing.

Anyway, this post doesn't really have much of a point...I just wanted to share my thoughts on what I think the average werewolf fan wants in a werewolf. I think my estimates are pretty good, considering I'm almost an average werewolf fan myself. But, I don't know that for sure.

[Ink]

This is just a personal take on it, Vuldari, but I think you ultimately stereotyped the crap out of this.

Freeborn will be a movie, however happens to take final form and however it is criticized.

The Pack will be a merger of people on a message board. And like all Message Boards it takes a form of some sort (no punning intended). This existance of the board will cause incidents like Cold Blooded happened to take on.

It will also harbor loud spoken voices of nay-sayers. But they are not the popular mass or the people who are the majority of the werewolf fan population. It doesn't work that way.

We are a thought pattern of deep thinkers -- the very few people who 'deep think' on subjects seek them out. For personal leisure, pleasure, and/or fascination.

I understand what you're getting at but I don't think people forgot where they're standing. I think that this crowd of people is just adapted to thinking about Werewolves and that's it. Regardless of people being furries or therians (which I am not) or geeks or preps or maniacs.

Renorei said it beautifully and pretty much dead on. I agree with everything she said about 100%. But again, these are just personal associations with the thought of all this. Taken with a grain of salt and all.

[Vuldari]

I admit that I found out about this place initially from an Anthropomorphics fan website. (Yerf.com) ...but I never really considered how anyone found out about it to begin with.

This is the thread that led me here. I went by the name "Reece" back then.

It was posted by a "Jamie" ...which is weird, since the only Jamie's here didn't join untill mid-last year.

Is the 'Jamie' who posted that original message still here, under a different name? If so, how did YOU find out about this place?


I suppose Anthony Himself (or the mysterious "Callypso-Blue") must have announced the existance of this website themselves at some point or another.

...so Therinan/Furry type websites were targeted for fan input over Horror sites? ...interesting...

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Very good points INK and Renorei.


I agree, Renorei, in that I too don't think that Werewolf Fans who prefer werewolves to be Ugly and Evil are at all satisfied with what they have been given so far either. (I just wish there were a few more of them around here, to keep things a little more balanced)


...and You're right INK. A few Jack@**es on another forum who do not hesitate to insult us, as Loud-Spoken as they may be, do not neccesarily represent the norm. (Most people are not quite so mean)



I most certainly DID steriotype this group pretty badly. Obvioulsy, the things that I said do not apply to everyone here, and to those that it may, only to partial degrees.


Individually, I know we all have a good strong perspective on where and who we are. However, collectively, I noticed that there are a few too many similar opinions around here, and I felt that we have begun to dillude each others minds a little bit into being too certain that almost everyone thinks the same way we do. (Or would if they ever took the time to think about it.)


Basicly, though I don't accuse any one person of being dilluded beyond reason, I felt,( and still do), that our group as a whole could use a good slap in the face to wake us all up and make us look around and remember where we are.

...in the process slapping alot of people who didn't deserve, or need it just as hard as everyone else.



I'm very sorry.






You have to admit though...if we DID post a link to this site on a "Horror" film page, or a General films Forum, the reaction we would get from our curious new visitors (Even if they were Really exited about the idea of influencing a new film about werewolves) would likely be "Mixed" at Best, once they saw what our primary topics are focusing on.
...Fur...Hair...Tails...Social Structure...Talking Voices...Pets...etc...

SFX fanatics, on the other hand, would quite possibly be thrilled that some of us wanted to make Werewolves that were powerful, beautiful, and believable ... or dissapointed that not enough things blow up.

[Ink]

However, collectively, I noticed that there are a few too many similar opinions around here, and I felt that we have begun to dillude each others minds a little bit into being too certain that almost everyone thinks the same way we do. (Or would if they ever took the time to think about it.)


Basicly, though I don't accuse any one person of being dilluded beyond reason, I felt,( and still do), that our group as a whole could use a good slap in the face to wake us all up and make us look around and remember where we are.

...in the process slapping alot of people who didn't deserve, or need it just as hard as everyone else.



I'm very sorry.

Meh, I don't think it needs apology.

Stereotypes are amusing but just useless, I just wanted to point that out. It's like if I were to make all jocks and all preppy girls are beautiful like Ken and Barbie. Fun, but ultimately uselessly bland association.

And certainly there are some very ugly un-Barbie or Ken like prep girls and jocks out there. (I live next to one, who's always drunk on the disgusting laundry room floor on her cellular going, "Why!? Why won't you come over to sleep with me?" and your mind just envisions his answer as: "Because everything seems to okay until you get to your face.")

I don't think what you were saying was unnecessary at all -- and we all need to realize that the Pack is indeed a mere FRACTION of the people who need to see Freeborn to support it/buy tickets/buy copies. And also understand that it isn't completely flawed by its lack of absolute majority in the population of werewolf fans.

This is all important and all ideas needs to be met with challenge. No one thing is 100% in the clear of anything, including the movie or the message board.

So I do share the idea of getting proverbally slapped on a regular basis to make us look around. It keeps our character intact and our integrity from falling into a resolve of goo.

Yes. Goo.

[dnl]

what none of you are saying you hate furrys right(steps a away) I found this site searching for werewolve info.

[PariahPoet]

I think we all bring something unique to the table. I, for example, am your average well-rounded were-jaguarundi.

[dnl]

I bring sci and knowleg of the past the and anything and everything I can manage....(On that long list spelling is not one of them)lol

[Vuldari]

what none of you are saying you hate furrys right(steps a away) I found this site searching for werewolve info.

I LOVE "The Pack". I have never encountered a group of people online whose ideas, opinions and personalities were so much fun to mingle with. I want to be a "trailblazer" too.

...

I admit that I found out about this place initially from an Anthropomorphics fan website. (Yerf.com) ...but I never really considered how anyone found out about it to begin with.

This is the thread that led me here. I went by the name "Reece" back then.

Nope...not a Furry hater here. I used to consider myself one, after all.

[Fenrir]

I think there are more here then you think Vuldari. If what you say is that you want is a non furry/therian, and a person who has not been bullied to the extent of angoraphobia. Then I do believe there are many more then you suspect, I know that I fit those catagories, but would that make what you call the normal werewolf fan? I also think that about a fourth of this forum is people who are non of those. However, I have agreed with most if not all of the ideas of the pack, and I am sure that I shall agree with all of those forthcoming, hopefully.

I do not expect that this number of so called "majority of werewolf fans" will ever grow to be more then a fourth of the forum, I do expect that they will agree with you. I mean there are those who disagree at somepoint (ie shadow Wulf) but they have also agreed with most of the descisions. hey and look at how our government is set up, you vote for the candidates that have the money to run, and to run you have to have lots of money they do not spend all or most of their time thinking about politics, however, the politician does. well the "average" werewolf fan is like the voter, he does not want to see the werewolf to be as horrid as it has been, but he wants the Senators or writters/directors, you could even say the pack members are the senators, but anyway it is just a few people who get to make the descisions for better or for worse, that's the way the system works.

[Vilkacis]

Being as I am rather accustomed to expressing un-average ideas, I would be rather surprised to find that my ideal werewolf is what most werewolf fans have in mind. That's my own personal Beast, and I don't particularly care whether or not other people like it.

Nevertheless, I think when it comes down to it, if I were to condense all of my werewolfy entertainment desires into a single word, the word would be 'Quality.'

And that, I believe, is an idea people can get behind.
(Or, at least, sit on the couch in front of.)



I think it's perfectly fine that we, The Pack, don't represent your average fan. We're not here to tell people how they should do things (although it's neat if they listen) -- people will always just do their own thing anyway (and they should!).

As I see it, we have two primary reasons to exist:

1) discussion and community, and
2) to thereby act as a resource.

For me it's the first that's important. The only reason I'm here is because you're here. Would you believe it's because I like the company?

But it's the second that comes into play in this discussion. What kind of resource are we?

Are we a resource of opinions? Sure... for what it's worth. But anyone who comes here to make use of us probably has plenty of his own already. How many more could they want?

More importantly, I think, we are a resource of ideas.

One has but to present us with a topic of discussion, and we love nothing more than to explore it so thoroughly that we can no longer think of anything more to say about it.

And what do they love except to see us do most of the brainstorming for them?

Our strength, you see, is not that we're like the average werewolf fan -- it's not our homogeneity...

It's our diversity.

-- Vilkacis

[Vuldari]

Overall, it seems that I have succeeded in my intentions behind resurecting this topic allready.


...and that was just to get people to think about it. ...Take a step back, look at what is going on and what we are doing, and wonder about what is true, and what may not be...

...who are we?...

...and what the hell IS the "Majority" opinion, anyway?...

(PS: These are questions I mean to ask privately of yourself, not answers I'm waiting for someone to post here.)


Some may see things in a new light, and others may find that everything still looks exactly as they thought it was. The important thing is that we all take the time to try to look at ourselves through the eyes of someone else for a moment...just for the sake of healthy perspective.


...sometimes it is just far to easy to get lost in our own little worlds...

[Renorei]

...because one usually doesn't know they have been dreaming untill after they have woken up.

Ooooh, profound.

[PariahPoet]

Aww...
*hugs Fig*

[Vuldari]

...IMHO...

No one Really knows who they are. ...not completely...

We will all continue to learn new things about ourselves every year, every day, untill the day we die...mostly because we are constantly changing.

...are you sure you are still the same person you were a few years ago?

I know I'm not.



I did not mean for anyone to take this so personally. I'm really sorry if my words have been perticularly hurtful to anyone. (I've only been trying to help)


-------------------------------------------------------------
This topic has been skewing far off it's original intentded course here.



Back to the original thought

I saw that, when I compared the ratio and range of opinions and types of fans here in "The Pack" to what I susspect the target audience of "Freeborn" is going to be, it was apparent to me that We weighed in quite heavily on the "Geeky" side of the equation.


I saw two problems with this.


#1- A disproportionate mix of opinions may not give the film crew as accurate an idea of what will earn the most praise and applause as was hoped. (A film catered to only a select group of fans, though possibly the makings of a "Cult Classic", could turn cold at the box office if most normal, non-fanatics, just Don't Get It.)


#2- -(In relation to The FILM project and "The Pack" both together and seperately)-

We have allready been tagged as "Furries" by many less open-minded Film fans, Horror/Monster/Supernatural genre fans and Critics. (In the steriotyped sense of the word...regardless of how innacurate that label may be to us)

We are bound to attract alot of negative attention as a result of this...we have allready gotten a small taste of it.

The fact is that I feel that some of us may not react very well to this once it happens. Overcharged reactions and unchecked emotions (in reaction to being labeled and shamelessly insulted, or just frustratingly mis-interpereted) I fear could start a chain of events that could lead to this communities own self destruction.





Now here is where I start pretending to be a psycologist.



Inadvisable emotional outbursts, (often represented in the form of angry messages towards ones tormentors, and ultimately resulting in LOSE-LOSE flamewars), often begin with the emotional insecurities of the ones being picked on. (You can't blame the tormentors...the words of an idiot have no power unless you give it to them by taking them seriously)


Being in Denial is a BIG emotional insecutity. That is why I reccomended for everyone to look at themselves as if from the outside...as if they were looking at someone else rather than themselves.


Are we "Geeks"? ...Yes...

Do our ideas and opinions look very "silly" to many other people? ...Yes...

Are we "wrong", "stupid", or "pathetic" for liking what we like and being who we are? ...No...




If you are confident and secure about who you are and what you believe in, nothing that any of them can say can hurt you. ...so long as the truth is in YOUR hands and not thiers.


...and the Truth is...we're weird. ...we don't see everything in all the same ways as most others do... ...but we're weird Together, and we like it like that.


If we try to deny that, they will have a weapon to use against us...to get us all riled up and jumping up and down like mad monkeys so they can sit back and laugh. (Nothing is more satisfying to a jerk like that than seing us get mad...exept maybe seeing us cry...)


Let's not let that happen. Know who you are and why you are here, ("To Have FUN, of course!") and we will have nohting to fear from the idiots who will inevitably try to tear us down for their own amusement.



Also...it would not be healthy for us to get too "high and mighty" about our own collective opinions here. What THE PACK enevitably deems to be the "best" kind of werewolf, or the "best" kind of werewolf film should not be flaunted in the face of outsiders who don't like it.

Some people will enevitably "Hate" what we are doing to the werewolf mythos. There are those who will feel that our "humanizing" of the werewolf, making it into a emotionally fragile creature, or a mis-understood race instead of a soulless Monster...a primal force of nature and pure Evil...is RUINING what the werewolf is all about, and what made it "Cool" to begin with. (There are some allready here who might allready feel this way, actually).

Thus is ones right to feel this way, just as it is each of our own rights to want the werewolf to be something else.

...most will SAY we allready know that...but actions speak loudly, and sometimes we are a little too quick to shoot such opinions down and react... ...ummm...


...


...wait...where the hell am I going with this now?


...at some point I think I lost what I was trying to say and just started rambling off whatever poped out of my head.



Feel free to go WTF?! and wonder what on earth I was trying to get at while I try to gather my thoughts again.




(...this is why I prefer message-boards to Chat-rooms... If I allow myself to post my thoughts as I think them before I get them organised, I tend to wander away from my point and end up making little sense. )



I think someone needs to put a leash on me or something, because I'm WAY overstepping my boundaries here.

[spoiler]Oh...and half of my personal emoticons are not working anymore for some reason. Go figure.[/spoiler]

[PariahPoet]

I would say that personality is static. Imagine your personality is a rubber band, depending on the situation you can re-shape it, but it is always a rubber band, and always snaps back to what it always has been.
But honestly, I think we're getting off topic and should just drop it.

[Vuldari]

I disagree with the rubber band anology, but whatever...back on topic.

Something crossed my mind a while ago that I thought I should share.
This Website and it's forums seem to have been adopted by a majotity of "Fur-Centric" Were Fans. Now, it occurs to me that if a more casual Monster Movie Fan browsed to this site planning on providing his or her own opinion on the project, (the kind of person who could not care less if the Wolves have tails or not, or the pattern of the fur, etc.), they might take one quick look at the posts here ("would You get a Real Tail?"), and think, "OMG Furries!!!...", prompting them to leave quickly and not provide any insight at all.
Sometimes us Furs forget that we are even more Scary than Werewolves to some people.
I think this project needs those peoples input as much as anyone elses if it is to be successful. How can we get more of those people to stick around? Any thoughts? :

Is this still true (or was it ever true)? ...or do you think this place is a little more welcoming to "furryphobes" than it used to be. Should we care? Any new thoughts or ideas?

[Renorei]

Is this still true (or was it ever true)? ...or do you think this place is a little more welcoming to "furryphobes" than it used to be. Should we care? Any new thoughts or ideas?

Yes, we most certainly should.

The way I see it, the majority opinion on this website is going to lead the Brownriggs into creating a werewolf that physically appeals to the furry/therian crowd, but not the overwhelming majority of the werewolf crowd. IMO, this is a problem. I have no suggestions as to what we should do about it...aside from perhaps try and put ourselves into the shoes of the average movie-goer when we are making suggestions about werewolves.

[Vilkacis]

[white]

Sounds like a reasonably good idea, particularily as our userbase increases. It would also make it easier to branch out even further without making any major, sudden changes later on should we need/want to.

Semi-OT note: I consider being scary a good thing. It means we don't get flooded with close-minded people.

[Lupin]

[Scott Gardener]

The better late than never input:

The majority of werewolf fans want a werewolf that looks cool. Beyond that, many of them aren't that interested in plot. Certainly not the horror fans. Werewolves can look like real wolves and look cool at the same time--and not just to us extremists.

Some of the best horror movies have an impact because they're believably real. Psycho was timeless, whereas Nightmare on Elm Street Part V was forgettable, because the former was plausibly, visibly real, whereas the latter was a quick fix.

A lot of werewolf movie DVD extras talk about wanting to take lycanthropy in a different direction, but each time, they seem to point to one more stock horror movie with the werewolf looking hoaky in a different way from last time. Just once, wouldn't it be nice to see them actually take it in a different direction? I don't think it's just us fringe people who will go and see the thing.

Studios are mostly interested in numbers. They want it to sell. They don't care if it's really good or bad; they care if it makes money. It's a business. And, I think this one will.

If there's a market for Cursed, then a movie that fandom in general considers far superior, made on a fraction of the budget, will have a much higher profit margin.

And, don't knock the furries. They're a hugely untapped market right now. Aside from The Lion King and reruns of Looney Tunes, there's not much. Consider how big Anime is today, compared to fifteen years ago. Furries alone could carry the weight of the project.

But, keeping the script as is, without overly softening the werewolves too much, would keep it just as interesting to horror purists, who insist that werewolves have to have a mean streak. So, if done right, everyone can win.

[Set]

[Ronkonkoma]

there is no way this place is too scary for people!



image copyright to Chenneoue, not me