Pregnant werewolf?

[Vuldari]

Baby shifts with the mother. Pretty simple.

What if the mother was having twins? Or maybe triplets?

Hmmm?

Is everybody going to be shifting?

Yes.

why wouldn't it just be easier if the mother didn't shift at all during the period of pregnancy

I can see how that might make a tiny bit more sense, but I don't see how it makes it 'easier'. If anything, I think it makes it more complicated.

Incorperating a biological function strictly prohibiting a pregnant mother from shifting might be one remarkable evolutionary trait too many, which is why I say I'm "undecided" on that point.

However...the way I see it, the unborn child of a werewolf would not have biological functions yet capable of the feat of shapeshifting, just as most of thier muscles, as well as thier lungs and digetive tracts are not yet fully functional either. It is not untill a short time before birth that a human childs bodies really "Work". (and sometimes then, even still not yet...a leading cause of newborn death)

That does open a different half-way option. Perhaps the unborn child would not shift (due to being "incapable") for the majority of the pregnancy, but in the final weeks before birth, those functions would be fully, or partially formed and could be triggered by any shifting activity on the part of the mother.

Thus...even if the child could survive it's mother changing it's shape around its fragile, developing body, (Something that just seems to dangerous to risk IMHO), a mother shifting too near the time the child is born would greatly increase the risk of the child being born partially shifted itself...which would be a liability if any NON-Werewolf well wishers want to see the newborn child, or if it has to be born in a public hospital.

[garouda]

Baby shifts with the mother. Pretty simple.

What if the mother was having twins? Or maybe triplets?

Hmmm?

Is everybody going to be shifting?

Yes.

why wouldn't it just be easier if the mother didn't shift at all during the period of pregnancy

I can see how that might make a tiny bit more sense, but I don't see how it makes it 'easier'. If anything, I think it makes it more complicated.

Incorperating a biological function strictly prohibiting a pregnant mother from shifting might be one remarkable evolutionary trait too many, which is why I say I'm "undecided" on that point.

However...the way I see it, the unborn child of a werewolf would not have biological functions yet capable of the feat of shapeshifting, just as most of thier muscles, as well as thier lungs and digetive tracts are not yet fully functional either. It is not untill a short time before birth that a human childs bodies really "Work". (and sometimes then, even still not yet...a leading cause of newborn death)

That does open a different half-way option. Perhaps the unborn child would not shift (due to being "incapable") for the majority of the pregnancy, but in the final weeks before birth, those functions would be fully, or partially formed and could be triggered by any shifting activity on the part of the mother.

Thus...even if the child could survive it's mother changing it's shape around its fragile, developing body, (Something that just seems to dangerous to risk IMHO), a mother shifting too near the time the child is born would greatly increase the risk of the child being born partially shifted itself...which would be a liability if any NON-Werewolf well wishers want to see the newborn child, or if it has to be born in a public hospital.

This might be true Vuldari, but hospital delivery is a very recent thing, in evolutionary terms. Surely too recent for an evolved selection to be likely. For the bulk of human history, birthing has been the domain of midwifery. So I could sensibly see WWs having a long tradition of giving birth with the assistance of midwives, or their equivalent.

[Vuldari]

Evolution is a fairly random thing, and usually does not "cover all the bases" like that. If it did, we would all be immune to all diseases and would never spawn children with fatal birth defects.

Also...the "Midwife" tradition assumes that most werewolves are born, or at least know other werewolves that have been born, rather than bitten, who would even KNOW of that tradition. If the pregnant werewolf coulple in question were bitten, and the one that bit them (as well as most of those in thier Pack) were bitten, then that perticular "tradition" might not be as well known or significant to them.

If they are part of a relatively small pack, or are "Lone Wolves", so to speak, who were bitten and forgotten, they might not have any wise voices to suggest that option, or think about that in time, instead worrying more about the health and well being of the mother and child.

[Set]

I've got another problem to throw into the mix here. What if a pregnant woman, who isn't a werewolf, gets bitten? What happens to her and the baby (which would be at least semi-developed at the point I'm envisioning)?

[garouda]

Evolution is a fairly random thing, and usually does not "cover all the bases" like that. If it did, we would all be immune to all diseases and would never spawn children with fatal birth defects.

Also...the "Midwife" tradition assumes that most werewolves are born, or at least know other werewolves that have been born, rather than bitten, who would even KNOW of that tradition. If the pregnant werewolf coulple in question were bitten, and the one that bit them (as well as most of those in thier Pack) were bitten, then that perticular "tradition" might not be as well known or significant to them.

If they are part of a relatively small pack, or are "Lone Wolves", so to speak, who were bitten and forgotten, they might not have any wise voices to suggest that option, or think about that in time, instead worrying more about the health and well being of the mother and child.

This will seem at first to go a bit off track.

Wolves have about 200 million scent receptors as oompared to about 5 million in the human nose. I am dead certain that WereWolves will have some characteristics to their scent, which another WW would unmistakebly detect on first whiff. Completely different from either wolf or human. Thusly, I would suspect that WWs would discover one another, their traces from touching things and such with fair speed. And so, I would anticipate that they would, over time, find individuals and packs via the scent telegraph while humans would be entirely unaware.

I could accept that geographic isolation might sometimes be a credible factor, especially in our ultra mobile modern world. Example being, a WW on a business trip or vacation, bites for whatever reason, someone in some remote location not already inhabited by a wolf pack.

So, if a disconnected WW were ignorant and ultra vulnerable thereby, I could see problems for that one. But for how long is any given WW going to be extant, before some other WW, particularly one who is connected to one or more packs, discovers this one when one or the other, passes through each others sphere of influence. Folks travel a lot more in this modern age than ever they did in the past. I am constantly amazed at accidentally running into folks I know in odd and remote places.

(( my sister was vacationing in Tahiti. She went for a walk on the beach. On that beach she ran into someone whom we both grew up with as a neighborhood friend. He is someone well known. ))

Edit: Continuation; Anyhow my point is that scent would I believe relatively quickly connect WWs to other WWs. A scent network in a sense. And once one WW tracks down another via scent trail, meetings would occur. The upshot of such meetings would likely be some form of fellowship. Two with a serious problem, being more powerful than one alone. Imagine, in these well connected ages, folks finding one another by the most certified 'safe' process. Their noses tracking a most unique odor. Later they can bring mail, phone, and other technology into aiding and abetting each other's lives.

Sharing tips and techniques and tricks for getting along in the world with minimum fuss and problems. And among those tips, information on how to manage pregnancy safely and where and who to contact when a midwife will be needed.

Will there be random factors ? Of course. The world delivers such by the boatlaod. But are those going to be the only thing ? Not likely.

[Vuldari]

Evolution is a fairly random thing, and usually does not "cover all the bases" like that. If it did, we would all be immune to all diseases and would never spawn children with fatal birth defects.

Also...the "Midwife" tradition assumes that most werewolves are born, or at least know other werewolves that have been born, rather than bitten, who would even KNOW of that tradition. If the pregnant werewolf coulple in question were bitten, and the one that bit them (as well as most of those in thier Pack) were bitten, then that perticular "tradition" might not be as well known or significant to them.

If they are part of a relatively small pack, or are "Lone Wolves", so to speak, who were bitten and forgotten, they might not have any wise voices to suggest that option, or think about that in time, instead worrying more about the health and well being of the mother and child.

This will seem at first to go a bit off track.

Wolves have about 200 million scent receptors as oompared to about 5 million in the human nose. I am dead certain that WereWolves will have some characteristics to their scent, which another WW would unmistakebly detect on first whiff. Completely different from either wolf or human. Thusly, I would suspect that WWs would discover one another, their traces from touching things and such with fair speed. And so, I would anticipate that they would, over time, find individuals and packs via the scent telegraph while humans would be entirely unaware.

I could accept that geographic isolation might sometimes be a credible factor, especially in our ultra mobile modern world. Example being, a WW on a business trip or vacation, bites for whatever reason, someone in some remote location not already inhabited by a wolf pack.

So, if a disconnected WW were ignorant and ultra vulnerable thereby, I could see problems for that one. But for how long is any given WW going to be extant, before some other WW, particularly one who is connected to one or more packs, discovers this one when one or the other, passes through each others sphere of influence. Folks travel a lot more in this modern age than ever they did in the past. I am constantly amazed at accidentally running into folks I know in odd and remote places.

(( my sister was vacationing in Tahiti. She went for a walk on the beach. On that beach she ran into someone whom we both grew up with as a neighborhood friend. He is someone well known. ))

Edit: Continuation; Anyhow my point is that scent would I believe relatively quickly connect WWs to other WWs. A scent network in a sense. And once one WW tracks down another via scent trail, meetings would occur. The upshot of such meetings would likely be some form of fellowship. Two with a serious problem, being more powerful than one alone. Imagine, in these well connected ages, folks finding one another by the most certified 'safe' process. Their noses tracking a most unique odor. Later they can bring mail, phone, and other technology into aiding and abetting each other's lives.

Sharing tips and techniques and tricks for getting along in the world with minimum fuss and problems. And among those tips, information on how to manage pregnancy safely and where and who to contact when a midwife will be needed.

Will there be random factors ? Of course. The world delivers such by the boatlaod. But are those going to be the only thing ? Not likely.

Assuming that Most werewolves even know what they are smelling when they catch a whiff of another werewolf...

...and assuming that most werewolves feel compelled to "connect" to other werewolves rather than be threatened by them... (Wolves may be predominantly "Pack" animals, but thier human sides...not allways.)

...and assuming that most werewolves are calm headed enough about thier condition to be that organised and "traditonal" about it in how they act around each other, and durring crisis situations...

...and assuming that most werewolves even care about protecting the secrecy of thier "Race" as a whole (they may not choose to identify themselves as "of the werewolf race", but rather, as "Humans with Lycanthropy"), rather than thier own individual well being, and have enough common sense to realise the consequences of going to see a Non-werewolf MD durring an emergency...


Then...that may be a reasonable assumption of the norm.


That would be what "SMART" werewolves would do, anyway.

[garouda]

Well Vuldari,

Let's take a look at the world as it seems to be.

We, never seem to see or hear reports of real werewolves.

So let's extrapolate:

So either:
A. WWs are very discrete
B. WWs don't exist at all
C. the powers that be are very good at keeping 'the secret'
D. A and C from above.

Now, we are rather familiar with how many WW tales end with the WW dead, and turned back into an ordinary enough human, so that no provable evidence remains. That is one path to the seeming non-existence of WWs. It is also a bit overused. Monsters that evaporate or in some other fashion, conveniently cease to be.

So, if A, C or D is the more interesting path to writing credible tales about WWs, then we should consider an attempt to explain how this is accomplished.

Edit: I should further like to add that while in general, instincts are often inclinations that assist animals to learn to be what they are. There are some that seem to be rather specifiic and thoroughly hard wired. IN some species, apparently, the ability to recognize certain scents of critical important to the survival of said species, are part of the heritage from birth.

At the intellectual level, at least to start with, a WW might not specifically know what this tantalizing scent is. But would feel a powerful need to track it down and identify it.

[Vuldari]

I think I just don't like the whole "Secret Werewolf Society" idea very much.

I prefer to think that werewolves have remained mostly unknown for so long because they are extremely rare...due to their tendency to get themselves killed if and when discovered.

As for how and why the whole world doesn't know about them then?

...they do...but most people don't believe it.

There are centuries of historical stories about them after all...thousands of books referring to them...and modern sightings such as the "Beast of Bray Road" and the Skinwalkers.

And if someone does manage to kill, and recover the corpse of a werewolf, only to have it appear to be a perfectly normal human...who's going to believe them?


Also...I just don't share your optimistic opinion of the general , 'common sense', intelligence of all humans who would become werewolves, (sadly, I imagine more "fools" would find themselves in this position than inteligent, well minded types) or the overriding effectiveness of instinct within the minds of creatures as complex and naturally selfish as humans.


...though I agree, that in the long run, intelligent werewolf lineages would liekely follow just such a course and tradition.

[garouda]

Perhaps it is because I have become rather tired and annoyed with the stupid , witless werewolf tales that seem to have been the staple of the visual media. Most especially motion pictires.

It has gotten old and hackneyed.

When a medium essentially just tells the exact same story over and over and over and over ad nauseum, with just minor embellishments to set one production apart from another. then I feel that they have made their audience the victim of WWsploitation films.

Rather than attempting to tell a really captivating and interesting tale that covers new ground.

But, if someone really wants to tell essentially the same story, then I think there is some virtue in really telling the story well. This rarely happens.

[Vuldari]

In retrospect...when I consider both my and your points again, it seems that the, perhaps more natural to how the avarage human would react, 'wreckless' werewolves would in-fact, get themselves killed fairly quickly, leaving only the extrordinarily organized and traditionalised werewolf liniages and packs left surviving.

...thus, we are both right in a way. The packs that still exist would be the few that learned how to survive, thus most thriving pack WOULD have just such organized traditions, as the ones that didn't would be long gone by now.

...and yet, in my own defense, if somehow werewolves came to exist outside of the reach of any existing Pack structures, (due to an unpredictable/ chaotic situation, or the activities of a rouge wolf), it is unlikely that they would succeed in forming a New pack with other lost/forgotten wolves, due to not having enough sense or will to do so. IMHO, Lost or unknown Pack 'Splinters' are likely to be aprehensive and dangerous rather than eager to hook up with those who made them what they are, or start devising new sets of rules and traditions for themselves and their decendants (Should they feel they should even have any, given what they are).

(That is not to say that I think NO lonely werewolves would seek out companionship. ...mearly that I think "fear" and "anger" may override that need in some, untill it's too late.)

[garouda]

This entry from the Wikipedia is helpful: Pack Hunter

As is this article regarding canine socialization: Dog Society See especially the notes regarding wolf expert David Mech regarding recent findings relative to hierarchy in Wild Wolf Packs.

An article written by someone interested in wolves which in one portion discusses the similarities between humans and wolves which may likely have been a factor in the domestication of the wolf and the evolution of the dog. Our Brother Wolf

My primary point here is that both wolves and humans are pack animals. As study of human group behavior eventually reveals to those interested in such research.

[ChaosWolf]

I've got another problem to throw into the mix here. What if a pregnant woman, who isn't a werewolf, gets bitten? What happens to her and the baby (which would be at least semi-developed at the point I'm envisioning)?

That's a damn good question...

[garouda]

I've got another problem to throw into the mix here. What if a pregnant woman, who isn't a werewolf, gets bitten? What happens to her and the baby (which would be at least semi-developed at the point I'm envisioning)?

That's a damn good question...

That would, I think depend upon how effectively the placenta membrane protects the baby from the mother's infection. That in turn would depend on the nature of the infectious agent.

Is it:
1. Viral
2. Microbial
3. Some sort of nano construct
4. How much of the agent is of a 'magical' nature ?
5. other ?

[Morkulv]

Speaking with the voice of Serious Sam: "Time for some sci-fi mumbo jumbo!"

Babies shifting within the mother? Gimme a break!

[JoshuaMadoc]

Werewolves without any esper/psychic/mystic/whatever heritage would have foetuses that stays human. If the foetus -does- shift in one circumstance, then brace yourselves for damage. It's either the foetus or the mother's insides that get an indefinite amount of damage from the foetus shifting. Better tread lightly with that.

Those with magic bloodline.... Well, there would probably be a werewolf baby who's in the "uterus" of a volcano if that's the case.

[Kirk Hammett]

Im not really sure what side to take, since they're all very interesting views. Usually when I write, my creatures have tails. So perhaps the baby is born with a tail.

But that's only really because when I write, my were-beasts are born and keep their tails in 'human' form, if they are pure bloods. I guess my stories don't follow so many traditional concepts . The world isn't always set here either...

Imagine going to school.

"Haha lets bash him he has a tail! Freak!"

Awwww

[garouda]

Werewolves without any esper/psychic/mystic/whatever heritage would have foetuses that stays human. If the foetus -does- shift in one circumstance, then brace yourselves for damage. It's either the foetus or the mother's insides that get an indefinite amount of damage from the foetus shifting. Better tread lightly with that.

Those with magic bloodline.... Well, there would probably be a werewolf baby who's in the "uterus" of a volcano if that's the case.

Along that thought line you can just throw out shifting of anyone anytime as that is going to give you all the damage you can't stand everytime it happens. This is fantasy folks. Get a grip.

Now something interesting in the way of handling reproductive troubles, was I think addressed in Robert R. McCammon's: 'The Wolf's Hour' .. I think his werewolf colony had a lot of troubles with frequent stillbirths and such like.

[JoshuaMadoc]

I was making a more plausible speculation. If this was put in a story, i could just not include anything about how babies survive inside the womb of a WW mother.

[garouda]

I was making a more plausible speculation. If this was put in a story, i could just not include anything about how babies survive inside the womb of a WW mother.

That certainly can be done. As rarely as 'Non Bite' replication takes place in both movies and literature, it is clearly done nearly all the time.

[mielikkishunt]

I tend to prefer the "baby shifts with the mother" option.

That could very well kill the baby. Things that little can't handle stress well.

My personal were's can shift, but their babies are also a lot smaller, more in ratio of an animal baby vs adult weight. For example. My borzoi are born anywhere from 3/4 of a lb to 1.5 lbs. Their average adult weight is 70-90 lbs. Average weight of a human baby? 7 lbs
Average weight of an adult?
Accordign to Wkipedia : The average weight for male adults in the United States is about 76 to 83 kg (168 to 183 lb). For female adults the average weight is 54 to 64 kg (120 to 140 lb). (tho tis last has to e wrong)

[mielikkishunt]

I think the baby should start out somewhere between Gestalt and human form when inside the mothers uterus, and when the baby comes out it slowly reverts back into human.

I can see THAT going over well at an ultrasound! Especially if mom doesn't know her one night stand was a were!

[mielikkishunt]

A puppy may not have claws inside the womb. But a human baby in gestalt form probably could.

Puppies do have claws, and they're sharp as hell.

[mielikkishunt]

Ok mabey I should have been more detailed. I think a baby should be half way to gestalt when born and then slowly revert back to human and the lycanthropy would remain dormant untill the hormones are activated.

I see many babies of an unsuspecting mother being killed or abandoned. . .or aborted when that ultrasound shows something wonky.
Not good for the survival of the species.

[mielikkishunt]

But if the offspring's own anatomy shifts with the mother to accomodate, then that issue is off the table.

The main issue I have with Fetus-shifting is that the kid isn't even complete yet, changing sounds absolutely out of the question.

My problem with it is the body isn't set in it's mold yet, and what if in shifting back and forth it forgets that it's supposed to have a hand instead of a paw.

My weres change into wolf like creatures. WOLF LIKE, meaning not entirely wolf. . and tho I never really thought of it, their uterus could very well not change in the shift.

Soo, conceivably, that could happen in 'real were's.'. I mean, are they fertile with real wolves? Being a human X Wolf hybrid basically, there could be some things that are totally different than a true wolf.

[Morkulv]

I tend to prefer the "baby shifts with the mother" option.

That could very well kill the baby. Things that little can't handle stress well.

Agree.