Its time

[Silverclaw]

How long could a werewolf go without shifting? I'm sure their would be individuals who would like to pretend they were fully human. Could they learn how to not shift during the full moon and try to never transform ever again? Or would the need/urge to change force them after a certain amount of time? How long would it take? And would the same go for those gone ferel, staying in wolf'gestalt form all the time?

[Aki]

I would imagine they could retain a form indefinatly, if they wished.

[outwarddoodles]

I sappose after awhile they would have to shift, maybe it'll build up untill they become uncontrollable.

[Vuldari]

I suppose after awhile they would have to shift, maybe it'll build up untill they become uncontrollable.

I agree. The way I see it, A werewolf is a werewolf, which is both human and wolf, and this fact can not be ignored, (no matter how the person may try). I think if a werewolf was to try to stay in one form or the other indefinately, the other side of them, (plus the bio-chemical factors that trigger the actual shift), would eventually build up so much pressure that the person could not resist shifting to the opposite form. ...at least for a little while.

I seem to recall mentioning a scenario where a Werewolf spontaniously began to shift in public involunatrily because he had been resisting the change for an exeptionally long time and he finally snapped, (bio-chemically speaking), but I can't remember what topic it was under. Oh well.

[Aki]

I suppose after awhile they would have to shift, maybe it'll build up untill they become uncontrollable.

I agree. The way I see it, A werewolf is a werewolf, which is both human and wolf, and this fact can not be ignored, (no matter how the person may try). I think if a werewolf was to try to stay in one form or the other indefinately, the other side of them, (plus the bio-chemical factors that trigger the actual shift), would eventually build up so much pressure that the person could not resist shifting to the opposite form. ...at least for a little while.
.

So, what is the opposite form of the Gestalt?

[outwarddoodles]

So, what is the opposite form of the Gestalt?

I think somebody has a poin there. Maybe the Gestalt wouldn't be so. for they are a mixture of both.

[Terastas]

I think a werewolf could retain one form indefiniately if he really wanted/needed to, although I think there would be two restrictions, one practical, and one psychological.

On the practical side, the shifting process is extremely painful, possibly fatal on first instance, but variably less the more often a werewolf shifts. If a werewolf were to retain one form indefinitely for a long period of time, they will have to readapt to the whole shifting procedure whenever they take up the habit again. It would probably therefore be the recomendation of a pack alpha for his family members to retain their human forms for the most part, but set aside at least every Friday or Saturday night (when they won't have to work the next morning) to find an isolated spot or a duck-marked safehouse to spend at least in hour in Gestalt form so neither the shift or the form becomes foreign to them.

And the psychological factor would be that, if someone were to become a werewolf, it's not something they could just cover up. It would be on their minds 24/7 and, lets face it, when people aggravate us, the first thing we usually think of is causing bodily harm. A werewolf's first urge, for example, might involve shifting, and as we all should know by now, the longer we keep something bottled up, the bigger the explosion is when we finally lose it.

So if their going to shift inevitably, it would be better to set aside a moment to shift than risk blowing their stack. It's kind of like (if you'll pardon the reference) how in one of the Animorphs series, Marco planned to try out his new shark form in the pool because he knew the longer he put it off, the more tempted he would get, and the more tempted he got, the more likely he would settle for an even dumber location, the exact quote I believe being: "Better today in the pool than tonight in my bathtub." The same idea would apply to werewolves -- better in the comfort of their own home than on the surface of their boss's desk.

As for the wolf form... I think it might be easier for a wolf to control their human emotions than for a human to control their wolf emotions. What I figure is that the aspects we generally associate with being human; things like pride, ideals, sentimentality, and belief in the supernatural, could be experienced freely -- maybe even indulged in -- by their canine side. A werewolf that goes feral could retain a wolf form, but still wouldn't need to suppress his human instincts. Just the opposite: in an environment where he would be exposed to humans on a regular basis (a wolf sanctuary, for example), he might actually be praised for his ability to relate with any human visitors. Canine instincts, on the other hand, would be harder for a human to ignore. Compared to a wolf's sense of smell, for example, being human would feel like having a cotton ball shoved up each nostril, so he might be more prone to sniffling. That's just a minor example. Both forms would have the other one to remind them, but a wolf that displays emotions would have few problems than a human that can't manage his instincts.

[outwarddoodles]

I think Terastas really put down some very logical thoughts.

[Vuldari]

I think Terastas really put down some very logical thoughts.

Indeed...good show Terestas.

I still think that it would be too difficult to call reasonably possible though. A WereWolf is a shapeshifting entity...it is just part of what it is. They are more than just humans with Wolf Instincts. Their bodies would be perpetually primed to shift, and sooner or later the trigger would be tripped. I don't know of any creature with a muscle/ gland/ organ/ etc. which it can choose not to use indefinately. If the body can...it will.

[Scott Gardener]

I imagine it would be like trying to stay awake too long. Sleep gradually creeps up on you, and you start looking sleepy, fighting nodding off, until you finally keel over.

Likewise, someone resisting the pull of lycanthropy too long starts to feel a bit stir-crazy at first, and then becomes increasingly wolf-like in mannerisms. Then, little shifts of features start to try to happen, and one must have to work harder and harder to stay human.

But, I give my lycanthropes longer than one or two days between shifts--more on the order of a month before starting to feel it and several before disappearing into the woods.

[Figarou]

I imagine it would be like trying to stay awake too long. Sleep gradually creeps up on you, and you start looking sleepy, fighting nodding off, until you finally keel over.

Likewise, someone resisting the pull of lycanthropy too long starts to feel a bit stir-crazy at first, and then becomes increasingly wolf-like in mannerisms. Then, little shifts of features start to try to happen, and one must have to work harder and harder to stay human.

But, I give my lycanthropes longer than one or two days between shifts--more on the order of a month before starting to feel it and several before disappearing into the woods.

There are some body functions we can't control. The heart is one. But there is one function where we have partial control. Thats breathing. We can hold our breath under water, or force out more air to blow out a candle. But we don't think about breathing when we are sleeping. If that was the case, you would die from lack of oxygen.

Can shifting be like breathing? Only partial control? With practice, one can controll the shift. But like breathing, your body may take over and you have no choice but to shift. For example, under a full moon.

Sleep is a necessity. So is breathing. Shifting is an ability. What harm can the body obtain if you don't shift? None. Control is the key. With that, you have a choice. Shift or not to shift? That is the question.

[Vuldari]

There are some body functions we can't control. The heart is one. But there is one function where we have partial control. Thats breathing. We can hold our breath under water, or force out more air to blow out a candle. But we don't think about breathing when we are sleeping. If that was the case, you would die from lack of oxygen.

Can shifting be like breathing? Only partial control? With practice, one can controll the shift. But like breathing, your body may take over and you have no choice but to shift.

Sleep is a necessity. So is breathing. But is shifting a necessity? Its actually an ability. What harm can the body obtain if you don't shift? None since its an ability. To control that ability is the key.

Singing is also an ability. One could easily go through life without ever singing and no harm would come of it. HOWEVER...even if the person chose not to even speak, could they perpetually refrain from ever vibrating ther vocal cords and creating a tone, (in the course of normal breathing)? I don't think so. I see it the same way with the shifting. Even if the person never did anything ,(physical or emotional stimulation), that was dirrectly related to the need or desire to shift, because the act of shifting is built into thier bodies, sooner or later it* (*the "shifting muscle") will "twitch" as any other function in the body will.

Sure, resisting it would be very possible, but to use another example:...

When something comes very close to your face, (like a fake-out punch or a projectile narrowly missing your nose), the body's natural reaction is to flinch. With practice and determination, you can force yourself NOT to flinch sometines ...but even if you think you have the composure of a rock, even the most experienced will eventually loose to the reflex and blink or duck sometimes.

[Figarou]

Singing is also an ability. One could easily go through life without ever singing and no harm would come of it. HOWEVER...even if the person chose not to even speak, could they perpetually refrain from ever vibrating ther vocal cords and creating a tone, (in the course of normal breathing)? I don't think so. I see it the same way with the shifting. Even if the person never did anything ,(physical or emotional stimulation), that was dirrectly related to the need or desire to shift, because the act of shifting is built into thier bodies, sooner or later it* (*the "shifting muscle") will "twitch" as any other function in the body will.

Sure, resisting it would be very possible, but to use another example:...

When something comes very close to your face, (like a fake-out punch or a projectile narrowly missing your nose), the body's natural reaction is to flinch. With practice and determination, you can force yourself NOT to flinch sometines ...but even if you think you have the composure of a rock, even the most experienced will eventually loose to the reflex and blink or duck sometimes.

Flinching is a defence. We don't think about flinching until a situation arrives. Controling that urge not to flinch, or blink, can be tough. Also controling the urge not to scratch an itch is tough.

*uses hind leg to scratch ear*

URK!! oooooooo itch....urf...itch..itch...oooooooo

Oh, sorry about that!!

As for not using your vocal cords, the only situation where that can happen is you are all by yourself somewhere with noone to talk to.

[Terastas]

I think Terastas really put down some very logical thoughts.

Indeed...good show Terestas.

I still think that it would be too difficult to call reasonably possible though. A WereWolf is a shapeshifting entity...it is just part of what it is. They are more than just humans with Wolf Instincts. Their bodies would be perpetually primed to shift, and sooner or later the trigger would be tripped. I don't know of any creature with a muscle/ gland/ organ/ etc. which it can choose not to use indefinately. If the body can...it will.

Not really. It is true that a werewolf is a shapeshifting entity, but a werewolf is the result of a symbiosis between a human and the lycanthropic bactirium ("virus" sounds too offensive). The human eventually becomes conditioned to shift, but only after continuous exposure to the process and sensations that come with it.

I think Figarou has the right idea -- that it is a natural process which we can enforce or reppress. Breathing is something we do naturally, but we can also force ourselves to take deeper breaths or hold it completely. The same could also be true of shifting; if uncontrolled, the lycanthrope naturally shifts during the full moon, but a werewolf that's at least aware of his ability to shift will be able to suppress it during the full moon or force it at any other given time.

Also, shifting differs from flinching because flinching is part of a human's natural instincts, whereas shifting is an ability gained through a foreign influence. It is in lycanthropy's nature to encourage the shift, but not the human's to undergo it.

It would be more accurate to compare shifting to smoking cigarettes. Nowhere in the human's natural instincts is it written that they should crush up a plant, roll it up in a tube, put one end in their mouth and set fire to the other, but the more their body adapts to the presence of nicotine, the harder it is for them to stop.

[Figarou]

It would be more accurate to compare shifting to smoking cigarettes. Nowhere in the human's natural instincts is it written that they should crush up a plant, roll it up in a tube, put one end in their mouth and set fire to the other, but the more their body adapts to the presence of nicotine, the harder it is for them to stop.

Compare shifting to smoking? Well, thats not a good idea because the more you smoke, the more harm it does to the body.

If shifting causes cancer, then I'm going to do whatever its take to prevent myself from shifting.


The body wears out eventually. Shifting every night shouldn't decrease the life span of the werewolf. Smoking does.

[Terastas]

Heh. I just thought of that too. It is true that it's an unfair comparisson because lycanthropy is beneficial whereas smoking is health-hazardous, but the comparison is adequate in terms of addiction. The first shift is alwys painful and the first cigarette is always wretched, but the more you shift/smoke, the easier it becomes, and the easier it becomes, the harder it is to quit.

[Figarou]

Heh. I just thought of that too. It is true that it's an unfair comparisson because lycanthropy is beneficial whereas smoking is health-hazardous, but the comparison is adequate in terms of addiction. The first shift is alwys painful and the first cigarette is always wretched, but the more you shift/smoke, the easier it becomes, and the easier it becomes, the harder it is to quit.

When the craving/addiction to smoking occurs, you light one up. If its a no smoking section, you find a place where you can smoke. Will the werewolf shift right then and there if the craving/addiction occurs?

Once the body gets used to nicotine, it starts to crave it. You'll be constantly smoking until it becomes a problem. With out it, you start feeling jumpy, jittery, something to that nature. A werewolf not shifting for a while shouldn't be as bad as a smoker not smoking.

[Vuldari]

Not really. It is true that a werewolf is a shapeshifting entity, but a werewolf is the result of a symbiosis between a human and the lycanthropic bactirium ("virus" sounds too offensive). The human eventually becomes conditioned to shift, but only after continuous exposure to the process and sensations that come with it.

I think Figarou has the right idea -- that it is a natural process which we can enforce or reppress. Breathing is something we do naturally, but we can also force ourselves to take deeper breaths or hold it completely. The same could also be true of shifting; if uncontrolled, the lycanthrope naturally shifts during the full moon, but a werewolf that's at least aware of his ability to shift will be able to suppress it during the full moon or force it at any other given time.

Also, shifting differs from flinching because flinching is part of a human's natural instincts, whereas shifting is an ability gained through a foreign influence. It is in lycanthropy's nature to encourage the shift, but not the human's to undergo it.

It would be more accurate to compare shifting to smoking cigarettes. Nowhere in the human's natural instincts is it written that they should crush up a plant, roll it up in a tube, put one end in their mouth and set fire to the other, but the more their body adapts to the presence of nicotine, the harder it is for them to stop.

You can hold your breath or breathe more deeply...just as I imagine Werewolves could force a shift or resist one. However, you can not hold your breath forever. Eventually your body will force you to gasp for air involunarily, or if you held it untill you passed out, you would begin breathing shallowly again once you lose conciousness. You can not stop biological processes from happening indefinately, (without physically removing the acting part or the host dying).

Comparing it to smoking helps me clarify even further. Picking up a Cigarrette and sticking it in your mouth is an "Action", but bending your fingers to hold it and breathing in are "biological functions". IF shifting involved some external action like the placing of a cigarette in ones mouth for smokers, (like perhaps speaking a summoning spell or "pushing the WereWolf Button"), then it would be the same. However, this is not the case. For a Werewolf, "Shifting" is not an Action, it is a Biological Function. It can be triggered or repressed as part of an action (like picking something up or preparing to do something that only the Wolf/Gestalt/Human form can do), or inaction but just like any other muscle, gland or organ in ones body, it will do something from time to time, whether you like it or not.

You say "the human eventually becomes conditioned to shift". I assume you are referring to ABrownriggs statement that the WereWolf Virus/Bactirium/Curse, etc. does not become activated untill they have become exposed to a Full Moon. On this point I won't argue. However, I still think that once the body has been fully primed, shifting would just become a fact of life for the Werewolf. ...because resisting picking something up and resisting your finger muscles from flexing at all are totally different.

[Figarou]

Not really. It is true that a werewolf is a shapeshifting entity, but a werewolf is the result of a symbiosis between a human and the lycanthropic bactirium ("virus" sounds too offensive). The human eventually becomes conditioned to shift, but only after continuous exposure to the process and sensations that come with it.

I think Figarou has the right idea -- that it is a natural process which we can enforce or reppress. Breathing is something we do naturally, but we can also force ourselves to take deeper breaths or hold it completely. The same could also be true of shifting; if uncontrolled, the lycanthrope naturally shifts during the full moon, but a werewolf that's at least aware of his ability to shift will be able to suppress it during the full moon or force it at any other given time.

Also, shifting differs from flinching because flinching is part of a human's natural instincts, whereas shifting is an ability gained through a foreign influence. It is in lycanthropy's nature to encourage the shift, but not the human's to undergo it.

It would be more accurate to compare shifting to smoking cigarettes. Nowhere in the human's natural instincts is it written that they should crush up a plant, roll it up in a tube, put one end in their mouth and set fire to the other, but the more their body adapts to the presence of nicotine, the harder it is for them to stop.

You can hold your breath or breathe more deeply...just as I imagine Werewolves could force a shift or resist one. However, you can not hold your breath forever. Eventually your body will force you to gasp for air involunarily, or if you held it untill you passed out, you would begin breathing shallowly again once you lose conciousness. You can not stop biological processes from happening indefinately, (without physically removing the acting part or the host dying).

Comparing it to smoking helps me clarify even further. Picking up a Cigarrette and sticking it in your mouth is an "Action", but bending your fingers to hold it and breathing in are "biological functions". IF shifting involved some external action like the placing of a cigarette in ones mouth for smokers, (like perhaps speaking a summoning spell or "pushing the WereWolf Button"), then it would be the same. However, this is not the case. For a Werewolf, "Shifting" is not an Action, it is a Biological Function. It can be triggered or repressed as part of an action (like picking something up or preparing to do something that only the Wolf/Gestalt/Human form can do), or inaction but just like any other muscle, gland or organ in ones body, it will do something from time to time, whether you like it or not.

You say "the human eventually becomes conditioned to shift". I assume you are referring to ABrownriggs statement that the WereWolf Virus/Bactirium/Curse, etc. does not become activated untill they have become exposed to a Full Moon. On this point I won't argue. However, I still think that once the body has been fully primed, shifting would just become a fact of life for the Werewolf. ...because resisting picking something up and resisting your finger muscles from flexing at all are totally different.

Everyone has thier comparisons when it comes to shifting. Some compares it to an orgasim.

Its kind of hard to compare a physical shift with something when "shifting" is impossible in real life.

[Terastas]

Once the body gets used to nicotine, it starts to crave it. You'll be constantly smoking until it becomes a problem. With out it, you start feeling jumpy, jittery, something to that nature. A werewolf not shifting for a while shouldn't be as bad as a smoker not smoking.

Well, that's going back onto the psychological restriction I suggested. If a werewolf shifts too much, the pain might start to translate into an adrenaline rush which, yes, he could get addicted to. It wouldn't be shifting he would become addicted to, but the sensations that come with it. He wouldn't necessarilly shapeshift just as often as nicotine addicts light up, but the longer he puts it off, the more locations he'll think about shifting in. The typical werewolf would, as I suggested, just set aside one weeknight to shift in the comfort of their own home. A too-frequent shifter, on the other hand, might not think assuming gestalt form in the handicapp stall of a public restroom is such a bad idea. It's just going back to that Animorphs example I used earlier: 'I'll pick a safe location today or a stupid location tomorrow.'

You can hold your breath or breathe more deeply...just as I imagine Werewolves could force a shift or resist one. However, you can not hold your breath forever. Eventually your body will force you to gasp for air involunarily, or if you held it untill you passed out, you would begin breathing shallowly again once you lose conciousness. You can not stop biological processes from happening indefinately, (without physically removing the acting part or the host dying).

Comparing it to smoking helps me clarify even further. Picking up a Cigarrette and sticking it in your mouth is an "Action", but bending your fingers to hold it and breathing in are "biological functions". IF shifting involved some external action like the placing of a cigarette in ones mouth for smokers, (like perhaps speaking a summoning spell or "pushing the WereWolf Button"), then it would be the same. However, this is not the case. For a Werewolf, "Shifting" is not an Action, it is a Biological Function. It can be triggered or repressed as part of an action (like picking something up or preparing to do something that only the Wolf/Gestalt/Human form can do), or inaction but just like any other muscle, gland or organ in ones body, it will do something from time to time, whether you like it or not.

That does make sense, but again I need to clarify that lycanthropy is a foreign influence on the human body, and is therefore easier to suppress than breathing because it is not a natural function of the body. The brain and/or body might want to shift the same way it may want nicotine, but just like any addiction, it can be suppressed entirely with the appropriate willpower. Shifting is the natural behavior of the bactirium, but it is ultimately up to the lycanthrope if he shifts or not.

You say "the human eventually becomes conditioned to shift". I assume you are referring to ABrownriggs statement that the WereWolf Virus/Bactirium/Curse, etc. does not become activated untill they have become exposed to a Full Moon. On this point I won't argue. However, I still think that once the body has been fully primed, shifting would just become a fact of life for the Werewolf. ...because resisting picking something up and resisting your finger muscles from flexing at all are totally different.

Actually, I was referring to the process by which the pain involved in shifting becomes nulled through experience. The first shift during the full moon is naturally involuntary because the werewolf will not know how to force or suppress the changes, but once familiar with his condition and the reflexes that cause it, his body could become conditioned to shift if he forces it, or build up a resistance to the urges if he suppresses it. Again, shifting is the natural behavior of lycanthropy, not the human which it resides in, and just like any other foreign influences on the body, it can become addictive, but with the right kind of willpower, it can also be suppressed.

Think of 'conditioning' in terms of how often a werewolf elects to shift. If he shifts too frequently, the pain becomes an adrenaline rush which he begins to crave. If he shifts only enough to keep the process and the gestalt form from becomming unfamiliar, it will still be painful, but he'll get used to it. And, if he makes a conscious effort to never shift again, eventually he'll eventually build up a resistance to the lycanthropic urges. Or in simpler terms, the more he shifts, the more conditioned to shifting he becomes.

[Vuldari]

That does make sense, but again I need to clarify that lycanthropy is a foreign influence on the human body, and is therefore easier to suppress than breathing because it is not a natural function of the body. The brain and/or body might want to shift the same way it may want nicotine, but just like any addiction, it can be suppressed entirely with the appropriate willpower. Shifting is the natural behavior of the bactirium, but it is ultimately up to the lycanthrope if he shifts or not.

This seems to be where our views dont quite match up. The way I see it, though Lycanthropy is a foreign influence at the moment of contraction /assimilation, once the first shift has occurred, the body is permanently changed and the "virus", (or whatever it is), is no longer foreign but a part of the WW's body. The Werewolfs bodies would produce the "virus" the same way it would produce bloodcells or any other chemical or biological byproduct.

What is your opinion of the nature of the (for lack of a better term) Virus after a Werewolf has become a Full Blown WW? My nearest guess is that you think of it like the "Nano-Probes" that made the BORG what they were...regenerative, adaptive and all. It's the "Virus" which rearanges the hosts cells and not the WW's own reformated body?
...or am I way off?

[Figarou]

This seems to be where our views dont quite match up.

Of course.

Like I said in my previous post above.

Its kind of hard to compare a physical shift with something when "shifting" is impossible in real life.

We all have our own thoughts and ideas about it. The best thing to do is agree on a conclusion.

[Terastas]

I understand what you're saying, but I find it hard to believe that a 4000+ old genetic code could be altered to that of a werewolf in 28 days tops. I could understand the whole thing about the bactirium aiding in the production of blood cells, but the mind and body would still be unacustomed to it's influences, both the positive and the negative. Resisting the nature of lycanthropy would be difficult, but at the same time far from impossible.

[Silver]

We all have our own thoughts and ideas about it. The best thing to do is agree on a conclusion.


And I'll try to do that. You all seem to have different views about how it would work, or how strong the 'pull' would be to change. But I didn't really see anyone who felt that a werewolf would be able to forever resist changing. Is that right?

I mean, if I were one, I'd certainly want to change.

[Figarou]

We all have our own thoughts and ideas about it. The best thing to do is agree on a conclusion.

And I'll try to do that. You all seem to have different views about how it would work, or how strong the 'pull' would be to change. But I didn't really see anyone who felt that a werewolf would be able to forever resist changing. Is that right?

I mean, if I were one, I'd certainly want to change.

Of course. If I was a werewolf, I wouldn't resist shifting. Its not like smoking where its bad for you. If I wanted to get away from it all, I'll shift into a wolf for a while. No harm in that.