Baby werewolves?

[Scott Gardener]

Picking another nit:

Whether or not a fetus is conscious is one of those huge debates waged between "Pro-life" and "Pro-choice" protesters. (There are more pro-choicers, but pro-lifers are a lot louder. For now, I'll avoid that debate like the Lone Ranger in a silver mine.) But, consciousness doesn't suddenly pop into place during birth, that much is certain. The only major physiologic transition that happens at birth is circulatory. There is a shift in circulation as shunts inside the heart and the great vessels (a temporary hole between the atria and a temporary bypass connecting the pulmonary artery to the aorta) close off to adapt to blood oxygenation through respiration rather than maternal circulation. There's no evidence that any major change in brain activity happens at birth.

If babies can shift, then it follows that fetuses should be able as well, unless there's a reason to prevent it. (Which there could be; fetal circulation is fairly inefficient compared to respiration, and shifting could easily be pretty oxygen-demanding.) If babies don't shift, then problem solved. If they do, then fetuses probably should as well, and might do so just as they move around a bit.

[Terastas]

Adrenaline IS a hormone.

Curse my poor choice of vocabulary.

Okay, it depends on wether lycanthropy is active after puberty or as soon as it enters the bloodstream.

[Figarou]

Wait just a second. Imagine a werewolf fetus, in gestalt form, inside the womb. What kind of comfort will the mother have when the fetus is moving around clawing away from the inside? What if it was born under a full moon? I can see the mother trying to give birth and the baby werewolf, in gestalt form, pops out the belly like in the movie Aliens


I say the werewolf fetus doesn't shift until later on in life. Kind of like puberty. When the body is ready, then the hormonal change can occur allowing the werewolf to shift.

[Aki]

Wait just a second. Imagine a werewolf fetus, in gestalt form, inside the womb. What kind of comfort will the mother have when the fetus is moving around clawing away from the inside? What if it was born under a full moon? I can see the mother trying to give birth and the baby werewolf, in gestalt form, pops out the belly like in the movie Aliens
.

Yeah, well, Wolf cubs don't exactly claw the mother's womb apart while a fetus, so i don't see why a werewolf would.

I say the werewolf fetus doesn't shift until later on in life. Kind of like puberty. When the body is ready, then the hormonal change can occur allowing the werewolf to shift.

I'd say that too. Partly because the thought of a younger Werewolf than that is odd to me.

[Terastas]

Wait just a second. Imagine a werewolf fetus, in gestalt form, inside the womb. What kind of comfort will the mother have when the fetus is moving around clawing away from the inside? What if it was born under a full moon? I can see the mother trying to give birth and the baby werewolf, in gestalt form, pops out the belly like in the movie Aliens

I say the werewolf fetus doesn't shift until later on in life. Kind of like puberty. When the body is ready, then the hormonal change can occur allowing the werewolf to shift.

First of all, babies can barely even move when their born, human and wolf alike. And who's to say that a gestalt baby would even have claws or teeth?

Second, puberty would be the convenient way to explain it, but lycanthropy has the properties of an infectuous disease -- what would make it lie dorment for 13 years? Yes, giving birth to baby werewolves is not a pretty process, but outside of a hospital with all the efficiencies of the 21st century, when is childbirth not risky and strenuous?

[Figarou]

Second, puberty would be the convenient way to explain it, but lycanthropy has the properties of an infectuous disease --

I say its a gene that can spread like a disease.

Not a virus or bacteria.

[Vilkacis]

First of all, babies can barely even move when their born, human and wolf alike. And who's to say that a gestalt baby would even have claws or teeth?

This goes along with my line of thought. I was not thinking that the teeth / claws would be a significant factor, and I had not envisioned much activity, either.



As for not shifting until puberty, who's to say whether or not the necessary hormone(s), or whatnot, are missing until sexual maturity? I think it's a viable possibility, but not enough to rule out the other.

I favor a younger transformation, myself. But, if we determine that shifting is often near-fatally, writhe-on-the-floor-in-agony painful, I might opt for the puberty view instead.

-- Vilkacis

[Figarou]

I favor a younger transformation, myself. But, if we determine that shifting is often near-fatally, writhe-on-the-floor-in-agony painful, I might opt for the puberty view instead.

-- Vilkacis

I don't favor a small child shifting into a wolf. I'd like to see logic behind this. I still say it has to wait for the right time in its life to become a werewolf. Thats how it was in the movie Teen wolf.



And I still say the werewolf fetus does not change in the womb.

What if this happens. Say you have a werewolf male mating with a normal human female? What are the chances the unborn is a werewolf? 50/50?

If that fetus happens to shift in a regular human mother, she is asking for trouble!!!

First of all, babies can barely even move when their born, human and wolf alike.

I heard woman say that they can feel a kick while pregnant.

Are we going to have an inside view of a pregnant werewolf in this movie? Seeing a fetus shift? Or having a pregnant female werewolf say, "Oh I felt a kick!! And its shifting!!"

Please, thats just plain silly.

[Apokryltaros]

Second, puberty would be the convenient way to explain it, but lycanthropy has the properties of an infectuous disease -- what would make it lie dorment for 13 years? Yes, giving birth to baby werewolves is not a pretty process, but outside of a hospital with all the efficiencies of the 21st century, when is childbirth not risky and strenuous?

First off, what's so bad about lycanthropy not manifesting until puberty? Many genetic diseases/disorders don't manifest until puberty, when various kinds of growth hormones needed for sexual maturity are secreted, or not secreted, or secreted in too large a quantity, depending on which kind of disease.
If lycanthropy is a genetic disease which requires certain specific kinds of hormones in order to manifest, chances are that the sex hormones are among those specific kinds, and children don't begin secreting sex hormones until puberty.
If a genetic disease that requires specific hormones in order to manifest symptoms doesn't have enough of the required hormones, it can not manifest symptoms.
There, a perfectly logical explaination on why we don't have kiddy werewolves running around on all fours before puberty.

But, truth be told, the idea of kids and or babies changing into werewolves doesn't sit well with me because I think that idea is too cartoony. After all, we're not making The Son of Fangface, or Teen Wolf Three.
Or would it be "Flea"?

[outwarddoodles]

What if this happens. Say you have a werewolf male mating with a normal human female? What are the chances the unborn is a werewolf? 50/50?

Matters if the genes are dominate or recessive.

[Apokryltaros]

What if this happens. Say you have a werewolf male mating with a normal human female? What are the chances the unborn is a werewolf? 50/50?

Matters if the genes are dominate or recessive.

Lycanthropy can't be recessive.
"A recessive gene" means that a gene that's supposed to make a particular protein isn't making the particular protein it's supposed to be making, and if lycanthropy is a genetic disease, I would definently think that there's too much to be done for it to simply be a gene that isn't making what it's supposed to be making.

[Silverclaw]

I dont really think that the unborn baby would shift. If moonlight is a psyhological reaction to shifting, well the baby doesnt know any of that stuff, much less see it. It really depends on how the full moon light really effects a WW. Maybe around puberty time, the need to shift would of built up and they have all the right hormoines and such. First shift then. Or whenever they got it into their heads that a full moon equalls a shift for a werewolf. Thus bringing it on themselves.
As of what form they would be born in, most likely however they where concieved. And/or whatever form the mother stays in the most. A WW living in wolf form most of the time would have a litter of pups. A WW living as a human would have a kid. The few WW living in their gestalt form would have a gestalt pup. IMO of course

[Scott Gardener]

Apokryltaros:

Lycanthropy can't be recessive.
"A recessive gene" means that a gene that's supposed to make a particular protein isn't making the particular protein it's supposed to be making, and if lycanthropy is a genetic disease, I would definently think that there's too much to be done for it to simply be a gene that isn't making what it's supposed to be making.

Thank you! You beat me to it!

If it were purely a genetic tendancy, you'd have to package it in such a manner that it would be all-or-none. You couldn't have an "inactive werewolf gene" in other people, because the genetic info would be too big. If you really worked hard, you might be able to squeeze it all down to two really big chromosome pairs, or one blatantly huge pair--which might work.

Here's the math. Humans have 46 chromosomes; wolves 78. Both are paired sets--23 and 39 respectively. 90% of genetic information is the same for both animals, just distributed differently, so that leaves about 8 chromosomes worth of info that's different. 80% of chromosomes appear to be inert filler. (Before you decide that that inert filler is in fact hidden latent werewolf genes, consider that inert genes would still look like genes, which would have been detected during the human genome project. If the thousands of genes for lycanthropy were distributed throughout the 46 human chromosomes, then the odds of one werewolf happening would be equal to winning the lottery every day for a year--werewolves would happen about once every few thousand years. Great if you're writing a Neo / Jackie Chan "The One" story, but lousy if you're looking for a pack.) That boils it down to two chromosomes--one pair.

You could have a single extra chromosome, that for some reason has to have a pair in order to work. That could be hereditary, and it would be recessive. But, it technically wouldn't be a "recessive gene" so much as a new phenomenon that follows recessive inheritance. But, it would take work explaining why none of the genes work alone and all of them work when paired. Normal genes don't work that way. Still, that's what plot devices are for.

If lycanthropy were contageous, then the child and mother could both end up with it.

[Silverclaw]

Look out! Old topic comin threw!

I was just wondering about this again recently. A werewolf that stays in full wolf form all time, pregnent, would give birth to other lil full wolf looking pup(s). But on the full moon, would they shift to human form? Become something like werehumans?
Same question with a gestalt pup. Would they even shift at all? They would be half and half constintly so I'm not sure.
Thoughts?

[Figarou]

Look out! Old topic comin threw!

I was just wondering about this again recently. A werewolf that stays in full wolf form all time, pregnent, would give birth to other lil full wolf looking pup(s). But on the full moon, would they shift to human form? Become something like werehumans?
Same question with a gestalt pup. Would they even shift at all? They would be half and half constintly so I'm not sure.
Thoughts?

You need to cut back on the coconut, Silverclaw.

[Silverclaw]

NEVER!!!
*stuffs a few more Mound bars in mouth, chewing messily*

dude...I got wings....see me fly!

[Figarou]

NEVER!!!
*stuffs a few more Mound bars in mouth*

Carefull. You don't want to choke yourself.

[Silverclaw]

Dont worry, I think I can handle it.....*chokes*

[Scott Gardener]

A werewolf is the same species regardless of form. A werewolf doesn't technically stop being human and start being a wolf, unless the phenomenon of lycanthropy is a metaphysical one rather than a biological one.

One slight nit to pick on Figarou's comment:

I say its a gene that can spread like a disease.

Not a virus or bacteria.

A gene that can spread like a disease is pretty much by definition a virus.

But, I agree with the spirit of what you had to say; I would have to consider something like lycanthropy in a class by itself. It would be too complex to be a virus, packing at least four chromosomes worth of wolf DNA (highly compressed--78 chromosomes, minus 80% redundancy with humans, minus 90% blank space) plus who the crap knows how much genetic information in order to manage shapeshifting; I'd expect that to be more than the info needed on the wolf form. A chromosome isn't just DNA, either; from a molecular standpoint, it's a huge structure with millions of DNA base pairs, packaged with structural support proteins (called "histones") and other components, such as enzymes and local modifications to activate or deactivate certain parts. The lycanthrope "virus" would be larger and more complex than bacteria, whose DNA consist of a few loops of only a few thousands of base pairs.

[Apokryltaros]

A gene that can spread like a disease is pretty much by definition a virus.

...

The lycanthrope "virus" would be larger and more complex than bacteria, whose DNA consist of a few loops of only a few thousands of base pairs.

Don't underestimate bacteria...
They have proven to immensely more resourceful than we have given the little oil-sacs credit for.
It could be that the vector for lycanthropy IS a bacterium. Some bacteria, namely the genus Agrobacter, infect plants, and alter genes of the host to form galls (the plant version of tumors). Furthermore, there are numerous causes where animals form a close symbiotic relationship with various bacteria, outside of the typical gut-flora situations. Like, the strain of Staphylococcus aureus that lives in the bloodstream of Komodo dragons that infect and kill their prey (provided their prey doesn't die of complications of having one's limb ripped off and swallowed).

It wouldn't be so far-fetched to have a strain of infectious bacterium that lives within werewolves and alters the genomes of newly infected hosts, or kills them in the process.

[outwarddoodles]

Look out! Old topic comin threw!

I was just wondering about this again recently. A werewolf that stays in full wolf form all time, pregnent, would give birth to other lil full wolf looking pup(s). But on the full moon, would they shift to human form? Become something like werehumans?
Same question with a gestalt pup. Would they even shift at all? They would be half and half constintly so I'm not sure.
Thoughts?

I think it was settled as they were to be born human and won't shift untill they are older, or maybe I just thought we did because thats what I think. So it'd be a human I sappose untill they are older and when the lycanthropy kicks in.

Hmm...what happens if a werewolf mates with a regular wolf? Would it be a wolf or would sperm and egg not accept each other, or posibly a deformed baby? (I'd suspect it couldn't happen.)

I love coconut, especially toasted coconut candies...Mmm...

[WolvenOne]

Okay, the consenus during the old topic was.

A: Werewolves could have young.

B: It wouldn't matter if the partner was a werewolf or not, as the virus is most likely going to be transferred from one individual to the other during hanky panky.

C: When a young werewolf's wolf-side manifests is a matter of preference. Could be at any time, could be once they turn 18. Most people seemed to settle on "anytime," but with it being really rare for somebody under 13 wolfing out.

As for, how many pups. Well, considering any pregnent females would spend most of thier time (if not all,) in human form, then I would think that large litters wouldn't fit too well. Twins and triplets would probably be more common though.

On a side-note, I feel there's a good chance that a female werewolf would find it difficult to switch from one form to another due to thier young. Most would probably try to stay in one form, because, well. Frequent shifting would likely increase an expectent mothers chances of having a miscarriage.

[Silverclaw]

Yeah, I agree with WolvenOne. Though I think a born WW would most likely start shifting around puberty. Earlier than that they could experence partial shifts if anything. From high emotions or a nightmare, something like that.

If for some reason, the pregnat mother stayed in wolf form constintly, the young would be in wolf form. Though I dont know if they would shift into humans during their puberty and stay that way. Start shifting to wolfies during the full moon afterwards. Dont know. Gets complicated

[WolvenOne]

Most sane mothers would probably just shift to human and stay there to avoid complications. Shifting to wolf and staying in wolf form would be unwise as they'd be forcing themselves to go without all the modern medical wonders that aleviate a lot of the dangers inherent to child-birth.

Course, loopy insane mothers whom have completly lost it may try sticking to wolf form. Though I suspect any *packs* would highly discourage such reckless behavior.

[Scott Gardener]

What happens if a werewolf mates with a wolf all depends on the specifics of the lycanthrope virus / bacterium / other biological vector.

If it is designed to load a full set of transformation genetics, plus a full normal compliment of wolf DNA in standard chromosome form, to a human, then the resulting creature counts as both a human and a wolf, and can mate with either. The wolf pups of such a cross would contain the vector, but unless it also transmitted a set of human DNA, it would either be inert, fragmented, or otherwise screwy. Whether or not the pup would be a carrier is up to whether or not it would make a good plot device.

Since my werewolves have a streamlined virus that cuts out the 80% redundancy, they're technically human but not technically wolf. Mating with a wolf brings up issues of bestiality, but won't produce puppies.

To turn wolves into people, too, the virus-like vector would have to contain both parts of its host, discarding the set already there in the recipient organism. Such a virus-like agent would be inordinately complicated, and would have a hard time dividing rapidly, pretty much killing the plausibility of being ready in time for the next full moon.