The Bite, the ceremony, the birth, or the curse

[redwolfmoon]

Okay, so, yesterday I was thinking of ways for one to become a werewolf. Naturally there was the bite and I kinda imagined something very Komodo Dragon like.
A possible kind of bacteria in the lycans saliva that would infest inside the new host and mess with the DNA, kinda like the spider's bite on Peter Parker in Spiderman. For me, bacteria seems more logical then a kind of venom because if that was the case, scientists would capture lycans and milk them like snakes, spiders, and other creatures as such for an anti-venom. Though that would be an interesting story. With bacteria that could be cured with herbs, such as Monkshood or Wolfbane like anything else.
The Curse was the second most comon form of transformation that I could think of. The crazy gypsy comes to you and tells you that you will be thinner... that was a joke if any Stephen King readers caught it. Such a thing as lycanthropy would be a curse to the common day human, attatched to civilization and would most likely be driven mad by it.
Birth would be another way of inheriting the gene, keeping the blood line flowing and I couldn't help but imagine a cute little baby werewolf Yet I admit that I supressed the thought as it would seem the most likely that a werewolf would probably change after it's human growth spur, seeing as the human structure is not complete and make the change even more dangerous then it already is.
It was here that I though of something else. If, by lycan law, a werewolf could only mate with another werewolf, blood would run thin after time seeing as bitting others could be against their human affairs. How to prevent insest? Well... the heart is blind and a werewolf could easily fall in love with a human (refer- Blood and Chocolate), such a relationship would be frusterating, wanting but incapable of fully sharing yourself to them. Perhaps a ceremony? Since the werewolf may not be able to be human, perhaps the human love would be willing to become werewolf themself? I couldn't help but imagine candles and incense burning in the forest, a human womyn before her transformed lycan love as she slowly grows fur and they run in the moonlite together... sorry, I am a girl...

I don't know, what do you guys think? Am I just being whimsical?

[RedEye]

One would consider that Birth, Sex, and Biting would be the most probable way that Werewolves-Lupans-Lycans whomever could reproduce their species.
The most Safe way would be birth...the young Were would probably not exhibit any metamorphic abilities before Puberty. Yet, they would be the most successful of Were's, the Shift being easy and relatively Painless. Plus, they would have a Lifetime of "learning the trade" already. They would probably be the most sucessful Werewolves.
Sexual Were'ing is the next most likely form. Perhaps there would be a Two-for-one effect, wherein the Human lover would also become Were'...perhaps not...but the baby would be Were' assuming the Virus is small enough to pass the Placental barrier (Pretty big Virus, here..). The Human would probably become Were' as well, one way or another...simply to remain with the Were' they have mated with. I just don't see Were's having recreational sex with Humans...too damn risky. You can come dowm with a bad case of Dead fast that way.
Finally, there's the Bite. This would likely be the Ritualised way that evolved, requiring Sponsorship, Acceptance, Trials, etc. To be witnessed by the Pack (like the movie), perhaps with one Were's fangs at the throat of the newbie, while the Newbie would have to force another Were's fangs into their flesh (at least a little)...just to prove their willingness. It would be the most painful and dangerous of the three, with Death being the most likely negative effect (secondary infection).
Of the three, Personally I'd prefer One (birth)or Two (sexual transmission). Getting bit is a Pain...already been there...

[Set]

With bacteria that could be cured with herbs, such as Monkshood or Wolfbane like anything else.

Monkshood and wolfsbane are the same plant, and it is highly toxic.

[Apokryltaros]

With bacteria that could be cured with herbs, such as Monkshood or Wolfbane like anything else.

Monkshood and wolfsbane are the same plant, and it is highly toxic.

Like I've said before; people have this nasty nasty tendency to break out in dead when they injest Aconitum or other members of the buttercup family.

[RedEye]

Three posts, and already we're off topic!

Given: Monk'shood Wolf'sbane and the whole related phylae are neurotoxic. There are a lot of "more Fun" ways to die.

Let's get back on Redwolf Moon's Topic!

[Set]

Three posts, and already we're off topic!

What's your point? You ought to get used to it, because it happens alot around here.

[Scott Gardener]

We each have our own timelines, with their own rules, but, there does seem to be a frequent consensus that lycanthropy behaves in a virus-like manner. This makes keeps the contemporary "bite" mythos, and also allows for hereditary means--but, it also essentially forbids the idea of a child NOT getting it, a popular plot device in non-fandom timelines.

We often read about it not as a bite but as purely hereditary, and we come across stories about someone getting it unexpectedly from both parents, as if you could compress the entire genetic differences between humans and wolves, plus regeneration, shapeshifting, and all of the complicated processes involved into one single gene, that, not surprisingly, is recessive. Thank you, fellow Pack members, for NOT writing too many of these kinds of stories!

Viral implies spread by viral means other than saliva. Ginger Snaps actually brought it up, though I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought of it long before seeing it.

But, if it could be spread that way, it likely could also be spread through contaminated blood products. Imagine a junkie... Or, a health care worker involved in a needlestick accident with someone being treated for a rather baffling case of pancreatitis, only to have the patient and health care worker both disappear rather suddenly...

[RedEye]

Y'know...there might be a story in that last bit, Scott...

[Lupin]

What's your point? You ought to get used to it, because it happens a lot on the internet.

Fixed.

But, if it could be spread that way, it likely could also be spread through contaminated blood products. Imagine a junkie... Or, a health care worker involved in a needlestick accident with someone being treated for a rather baffling case of pancreatitis, only to have the patient and health care worker both disappear rather suddenly...

I was considering a similar theme where a werewolf could pass lycanthropy by donating blood. I just wasn't sure how anonymously one could do it.

[redwolfmoon]

To Set, no Monkshood and Wolfsbane are technically not the same plant, they are closely related and typically cousins. Wolfsbane will deffinantly kill you, while you could survive Monkshood but barely. As for the fact that it kills, a werewolf is not the same as a human, the system would be a bit different and, if the herb is combine with other things, it could be something 'healthy', if you consider no longer being a lycan to be healthy.

When one talks of lycanthropy (not the mental disease) as viral, I don't really like that concept. If it is transplanted through blood, saliva, or sexual interaction...then it just sounds like a bizzare twist of the AIDs virus and then just a twisted disease that you could get. "DON'T TOUCH ME YOU COULD HAVE LYCANISM!!!" just like in the 80's. Not cool dudes, not cool.

I have always promoted the Lycan Bite as a transferal, but that doesn't mean that if they are in human form it can still be transferd. Like, only when they are the full form does it take affect... I hope I explained that they way I meant to.
As to, if I don't explain something well enough, rather then make assumption, just say so and I will try to do better. (I normally get very aggressive when people don't get what I'm trying to say. Poor social skills)

[Set]

a werewolf is not the same as a human

Neither is an octopus, but poison is poison, and it'll still kills. If anything I'd think it would kill a werewolf FASTER. The higher your metabolism is the quicker the poison would affect you.

[Apokryltaros]

To Set, no Monkshood and Wolfsbane are technically not the same plant, they are closely related and typically cousins. Wolfsbane will deffinantly kill you, while you could survive Monkshood but barely. As for the fact that it kills, a werewolf is not the same as a human, the system would be a bit different and, if the herb is combine with other things, it could be something 'healthy', if you consider no longer being a lycan to be healthy.

From a toxicological standpoint, wolfsbane and monkshood are the same plant: all 250+ members of the genus Aconitum are equally fatal if ingested.
The only cases where people have survived aconite poisoning are where they were given the antidote immediately.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aconitum#Toxicology
The only real difference between wolfsbane and monkshood is that the species with "monkshood" in their common names are the ones with prettier flowers than the "wolfsbane" species. Otherwise, the two common names are interchangeable.
Saying that wolfsbane and monkshood are distinct from each other is akin to arguing that automobiles, cars and horseless carriages are distinct types of vehicles.

a werewolf is not the same as a human

Neither is an octopus, but poison is poison, and it'll still kills. If anything I'd think it would kill a werewolf FASTER. The higher your metabolism is the quicker the poison would affect you.

Peculiarly, squids are unaffected by some neurotoxins, such as sarin. I'm not sure if octopi are immune to sarin, however.

[RedEye]

In regards Werewolves and Wolf's bane: Perhaps the Were' is less sensitive to the Alkaloids: I have seen the whole array of effects descibed: viz:
It functions as a specific sedative and calmative on newly Crossed were's.
It inhibits shift and reversion in werewolves.
It is instantaneously deadly to Were's...more deadly than Silver, even.
It has NO EFFECT on Were's (used as an Identification Trial drug)
It acts to bring the Human mind into contact with the Wolf's, and is used to speed Merging of the Identities.

And, may I add, it looks lovely in my Garden (Loves the shade)

But then, I have a Lethal Garden... well away from the Open areas, and no...I won't say why. Have some Tea?

[Apokryltaros]

If wolfsbane doesn't have an effect on weres like you claim, then why on Earth do people think that it can ward off and or kill werewolves?

[RedEye]

I was simply referring to "reported" effects in story and legend. It will kill Wolves (the non-improved basic models)...apparently that's how it got it's name: as a Wolf-Poison (Really ugly thought, that!).

Add in a Werewolf...you'd expect the same effect. Like "Garlic on Vampires"...and we've all heard the joke "OY..Did you ever pick the wrong Vampire..."

Not to mention, I had three forms of Nightshade with dinner: Potatoes, Tomatoes, and a nice pipe after...
Tomatoes and Potatoes were thought to be Poison when they were first were inported to Europe.

To speculate: Based on the Gross Alkalytic structure of Wolfbane's toxoid complex...if it didn't kill them outright, then I'd suspect it would act like a tranquilizer or calmative (similar action to other Alkaloids in severe titration{great dilution}). It would be least likely to inhibit shift or reversion; although it might work that way by specifically paralyzing certain Neural structures that triggered the Shift/Reversion process.

I'll see if there is a diagram of the Alkaloid Structure available...that might give me some form of clue...I'll get back if I learn anything useful to speculation, other than WOLF'SBANE IS DEADLY POISON. DON'T EVEN THINK OF USING/DRINKING IT. YOU WILL DIE...WE WILL POINT AND SNICKER...SO DON'T DO IT!

[Terastas]

You pretty much covered all the bases. The hardest part is trying to classify lycanthropy as a virus, bacteria etc. since any definition could be innacurate or offensive. What I figure, however, is that no lycanthrope has ever had the resources necessary to study lycanthropy, so I figure any misconceptions or offensive terminology is just added realism. Kind of like how AIDS was once called GRID (Gay Related Immune Defficiency), if you will.

As for the circumstances of passing on the syndrome, you could apply any to the method and motivations of infecting. A werewolf could just as easily bite someone they dislike as a curse or someone they like as a way of welcoming them into the family. In a sense, it's another one of those things that's open to possibilities.

I'm pretty sure there won't be any gypsy curses though. One thing that everyone seems to agree on here is a strong dislike for the magical approach.

[Apokryltaros]

I have a basic idea of what the molecular structure of aconitine is, after all, they have a diagram of it in Wikipedia.
And do note that the first Europeans to introduce the tomato and potato to Europe, the Spaniards, were extremely intimate with the edible qualities of those two nightshades. After all, they were the ones who conquered the civilizations that domesticated the tomato and potato. The Moors of northwestern Africa, and eventually, all of Asia, added tomatos to their respective cuisines after Spanish traders gave them tomatos. The rest of Europe presumed that because the tomato was a nightshade, it was poisonous, and was grown as a flower. It wasn't until times of famine that the Europeans realized that the fruit was edible.
Potatos had a bad start, in that, when the potato was first introduced into England, they were property of Queen Elizabeth. A merchant bought a bushel of potatos for the Queen, and planted them all along the shores of the Thames. And when the plants were mature, they were all uprooted, and made into soup. All of the diners then became violently ill, as no one told the English that you're not supposed to eat the plant, but the tuber.

[redwolfmoon]

To Apokryltaros, no offense, but you seem to be getting kinda testy about the Monkshood/Wolfsbane thing... which is stupid. Mythological creature, remember?

Monkshood was commonly used as an external painkiller during the middle ages and worked without deadly affects! If injected into the blood steam, it is leathal, if injected into muscle tissue then it will paralize for hours! Although it has the ability to kill, Monkshood also has the great ability to cure. In Asia and much of Arabia, the roots were commonly used to cure sickness and disease. The main reason why it is not used today as a healing herb is that the proper dosage is vital, too much can kill and too little won't do a thing.
Durring its life cycle, it is the amount of Alkaloids that makes it fatal. As a young tuber, the amount of aconitine, the main alkaloid, is low and reaches an altime high when it matures in the winter. Early fall being the best time to pick for medical use.
Aconitine is one of the strongest plant poisons, doses of 2-5mg able to kill an adult. Low doses act as stimulants, as dosage increases it paralyzes the nervous system and then shuts the system down. Poisoning symptoms of poisoning are oral paresthesias, abundant salivation, nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. Cool skin, limbs becoming insensitive and pulse accelaration. Respitory failure and cadiac arrest are the main forms of fatality.
With proper doses, Monkshood is mainly applied externally as a painkiller in neuralgia in cases of rheumatism, gout, headaches, migraines, and colds accompanied with hig body tempatures. It is used in several medicines and, due to its strong toxicity, is rarely used internally.
Also, according to your presious Wikipedia: Aconite has been ascribed with supernatural powers relating to werewolves and other lycanthropes, either to repel them, relating to aconite's use in poisoning wolves and other animals, or in some way induce their lycanthropic condition, as aconite was often an important ingredient in witches' magic ointments.

In a matter of Lycanthropy being a form of virus, then it could easily spread. A misquito drinks the blood of a lycan and lands on a human right after, then they could be a werewolf. A lycan cuts himself while preparing food, the eaters could become lycans.
As far as spreading the 'virus' goes, I think that it would only be exchanged through saliva. Like a sort of chemical that helps it digest its food while it is in shift so that it can diggest faster.
Now, I would appreciate it if we could stop ranting about potatoes.

[Apokryltaros]

I strongly feel that it reflects very badly on a person if that person goes around presenting facts in a half-assed way.
And yes, werewolves are mythical creatures, but, what's the point if you disregard all of the legends about the aforementioned mythical creature?
If we've been making a song and dance about how wolfsbane can ward off werewolves because of its toxicity for the last thousand years, then what's the point if a person says "well, I think werewolves should be unaffected by wolfsbane just because"?

And, for your information, I happened to be one of the contributors of that article.

[Scott Gardener]

Giving blood helps you feel warm and furry inside:

Donated blood is screened for some basic stuff--HIV, Hepatitis, and Syphilis. It's also typed. Though in rare circumstances, whole blood can be transfused, it's usually given as "FFP" (fresh, frozen plasma) or "Packed RBCs" (blood cells, seperated out from the plasma and stored seperately.) Note that packed red blood cells also contains a few white blood cells--which in my storyline's lycanthropic physiology is one of the first places lycanthropy goes. Something the size of a large virus or small bacterium could end up in reasonable amounts in both sections, so both blood products could be contaminated with a typical model of a hypothetical "lycanthrope virus." But, there is a filtering process with plasma that stands a good chance of removing a large percentage of the viral product, thus lowering the odds of transferral.

Blood is only screened for things we actually know about. That's why so many people who got blood before 1985 got HIV, and so many up to the mid-ninties got hepatitis C. It's not routinely examined under an electron microscope to look for unknowns, as this is about as practical as screening every letter and post card in the mail for anthrax. (Bingo! I just got this post scanned by a top-secret government keyword search engine!)

When blood products are given, it is re-typed and additional antigens are crossmatched before transfusing, looking to make sure the body does not reject the incoming materials.

In my own timeline, if you get contaminated packed RBCs, you should get used to fur and a tail, because odds of transmission are almost inevitable. If you got plasma, however, your odds are much lower, but not zero. Around 2010 or so, a secretly researched prophylaxis antibody injection--intended as a rescue injection in case of a bite--is developed, and such a thing might prevent getting lycanthropy from an infected batch of plasma, but it wouldn't help you if you got two units of packed blood cells. Lycanthropy prophylaxis gets only marginally better over more than a century. Blood screening starts around 2016 or so, several years after knowledge is made public that werewolves exist.

And, you can't get lycanthropy by giving blood. But, you can get the confidence of knowing that you've helped to save a life...

[Apokryltaros]

Do they make the prophylaxis from goat, horse or rabbit serum?

[Scott Gardener]

Hadn't thought that far, since it was just a brief mention in the novel. But, I'd think it would have to be synthetic, or grown recombinant by bacteria.

[Apokryltaros]

E. coli or Bacilus subtilis?

[Raltor]

In a matter of Lycanthropy being a form of virus, then it could easily spread. A misquito drinks the blood of a lycan and lands on a human right after, then they could be a werewolf. A lycan cuts himself while preparing food, the eaters could become lycans.
As far as spreading the 'virus' goes, I think that it would only be exchanged through saliva. Like a sort of chemical that helps it digest its food while it is in shift so that it can diggest faster.

I think this is a very plausable idea. Well, there really hasn't been any information about the blood of a werewolf carrying the diesese, but you would have to figure that something in the werewolf contributes to it's change upon infection. If it were a bacteria, say in the mouth, and bit someone else...wouldn't that mean the person now has the bacteria in thier blood. So any way you put this it's still going to come back to the same conclusion. Unless...in the werewolf form the blood is tainted, and has the infection running through it, but in human form the blood retains the infection somehow, or contains it. The human would then be able to willingly release the virus spreading it again through the body. So while in human form the virus would be battling to get free and take over, but in were form the virus would be overpowered and contained do to the were's powerful immune system. I doubt that a mosquito could bite a full transformed werewolf with all the fur it's got, so that would debunk the mosquito theory. Other than that you put up a rather interesting argument, along with everyone else.

[Apokryltaros]

Mosquitos and other blood-drinking insects are more than capable of crawling through fur to get at skin, and when confronted with birds and mammals with thick coats, they often target the face or extremities, circumventing the protection afforded by thick fur in the first place.