Anatomy

Morkulv · Post by **Morkulv** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:30 pm

Indeed. Somehow I don't see werewolves as a 'kind of wolf', like (I think) a lot of other people do. I just go with the things that feels good. Like, for example, if a picture if somehow scary, I see it as a good part (although I'm also not a fan of 'demonized werewolves'). Wolves just have a sertain feeling. Wolf-fans and therians know that I mean by that. But I also think that humans also have a kind of 'feeling', and I'm curious of what it would be to blend those together. I think it would be very interesting and innovative.

That picture looks very nice. Although its sad that its a close-up, because you can't see anything else but the face, so its hard to picture a body beneath it. But it is very cool though. Strange that I never saw that picture on the net, TransFur, or anything.

Vuldari · Post by **Vuldari** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:30 pm

Morkulv wrote:Indeed. Somehow I don't see werewolves as a 'kind of wolf', like (I think) a lot of other people do. I just go with the things that feels good. Like, for example, if a picture if somehow scary, I see it as a good part (although I'm also not a fan of 'demonized werewolves').

I think I know what you are saying. When I see a representation of a monster that is uniquely creepy looking, or in some way shocking, I can most certainly think of that "uniqueness" as a positive element of it's design, if it looks good.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say about Us, about Werewolves being thought of as a "Kind of Wolf". A werewolf is not a Wolf that stands up like a man. That would be an Anthro-Wolf. I don't know of anyone here who claims that is what a werewolf is.

IMHO: A Werewolf is something that goes back and fourth between being a human and being a wolf. ...and sometimes something inbetween that is both and niether.

What exactly are you implying that WE think a werewolf is? I don't think you made that as clear as you intended.

I would never describe ANY of my various versions of werewolves as "A Kind of Wolf"...

...as if a werewolf is "Canis Lycanthopus", a rare sub-breed of wolf, and not human at all.

Absolutely not. Is that what you thought that I beleived?

Morkulv wrote:Wolves just have a certain feeling. Wolf-fans and therians know that I mean by that. But I also think that humans also have a kind of 'feeling', and I'm curious of what it would be to blend those together. I think it would be very interesting and innovative.

Now THIS I can understand.

Allthough, I personally feel that most of the Unique "Vibe" I get from humanity (from a visual, aesthetic standpoint) is contained within the Eyes, and the facial expressions that belong only to us...and, in my personal opinion, these can be quite succesfully intigrated into a primarily animal head and face...which ends up looking much like the "Furry" style that is so popular right now.

That is not to say that I am against trying it differently...

...but I think the "Wolf Head" method WORKS, if you give it Human eyes, and the uniquely human ability to 'smirk', 'scowl', 'frown', 'smile', 'grimace', 'grin', and all of the other no-verbal expressions that only we make.

I will admit that your braincase argument holds great merrit. You can't just ignore that. Either the human looses some grey-matter durring a shift (effectively, "BrainDamage"), or to avoid that, the braincase must remain sufficiently large to fit the existing brain tissue without the need of significant alteration of said tissue.

...although...the idea that a person would permanently loose part of thier inteligence, and ultimately, thier humanity after thier first shift could be a great plot-point in a fear based Werewolf Story. You know...the kind of story where becoming a werewolf is a BAD thing, rather than the "Happy Time" gift that so many make it around here.

Inversely, a primarily human, ("WolfMan"), hairy, sharp toothed face with IN-Human eyes also works...where the 'shell' is human, but it's expressions become un-readable to a human being, making it's intentions unknown, and therefore inherantly frightening...as we are all instinctively afraid of the unknown.

Morkulv wrote:That picture looks very nice. Although its sad that its a close-up, because you can't see anything else but the face, so its hard to picture a body beneath it. But it is very cool though. Strange that I never saw that picture on the net, TransFur, or anything.

I wish I could remember the artist. It would help if it had a signature on it or something.

The head was really the focus of this discussion anyway.
(It IS a shame that it isn't a full-body shot, rather than just a bust)

...since we are on the subject of "bodies" though...

Do you have some suggestions on how the body could/should be built and presented as well?

This thread is titled "ANATOMY" after all. How do you feel about how a transformed werewoves body should be built, compared to it's standard human form? Do you feel that most have got it right, or do you have some suggestions on how it should be changed, or done differently?

...or...

How do you feel about the body as it is represented in RedWolfMoon's pic?

Anyone feel free to answer this question.

redwolfmoon · Post by **redwolfmoon** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:09 pm

I will be drawing some pictures on internal anatomy.

As far as I can see, only a few changes of size would occur, the heart may enlarge, more bloodflow, more oxygen to the muscles, better chances of super strength and agility.

I would say that the stomach enlarges, but there are difficulties in this aspect. If it did enlarge, the werewolf would not really be able to eat as much as it is said to in legend, since at some point in the night it would revert back to human form. This would mean one of two things, one the werewolf would have to regurgitate the nights feast or let its stomach explode in the shift back. To prevent this, it would have to have an over active thyroid, extremely hightening the motabolism. This would also mean that it would have to go to the bathroom in some frequency.

Muscular would probably be the one word to sum up a lot of werewolves, but that doesn't mean that is how they all of them would be. That is also something I'm working on, a sheet showing the differences between werewolf species. Just in case Morkulv might get on my case, I don't mean that they are a completely different species... but at the same time they are. Okay... there are homosapiens, but there are things that seperate an american from an asian, so it is kinda like a different breed of homosapien that doesn't have a catagory of its own, which I think would be the same for lycans.

As I've said before, I really love actual complex questions ^^

Shadow Wulf · Post by **Shadow Wulf** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:47 pm

Vuldari wrote: [url=http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4228/q ... ail4ec.jpg]

Bleh, If you cant make a good enlarge picture then I will

Heres a less pixalated of the picture.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/ ... atomy2.jpg

Renorei · Post by **Renorei** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:13 pm

Misfit Werewolf, a member of this forum, had an avatar on this website and a link to a deviant art account that had art he (or she) had made, that I think Morkulv would like. It was very human and lupine at the same time. I can't find him in the memberlist though....

Scott Gardener · Post by **Scott Gardener** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:16 pm

Brain size:

I think there's some room to fudge. A lot of the brain's volume is white matter, axon tracts. There are a few disorders that cause the brain's ventricles, a pair of fluid-filled chambers, to enlarge, causing the white matter tracts to shorten accordingly, since overall brain volume is confined into a fixed space. If the ventricle expand suddenly, the brain herniates--it squishes downward, and you die a horrible death. But, if it happens slowly over years, you get a few rare individuals with brains that are hollowed out from the inside by astonishing degrees, but who look, act, and think normally. This tells us that the brain volume does not have to be 1400 cc in order to support human cognition.

The active portion of the cognition part of the brain (as opposed to basic life support in the brain stem, and sense of balance in the cerebellum) is in the cerebral cortex, the outer surface of the brain, which is about a millimeter thick. It's got a lot of surface area, however, so that's the tricky part.

A werewolf brain--one that could pack human cognition, memory, and so forth into a shifting volume between 400 and 1400 cc--would be another example of something unique, neither wolf nor human, that would involve rather complex engineering. But, I'm not going to plunk a "Busted" sign. I still think it's plausible--granted, the evolutionary complexity of doing it almost demands genetic engineering by an advanced civilization.

JoshuaMadoc · Post by **JoshuaMadoc** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:12 am

And i will happily be redwolfmoon's rival in drawing speculated werewolf anatomy...

Vuldari · Post by **Vuldari** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:30 am

Shadow Wulf wrote:
Vuldari wrote: http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/4430 ... ger4vi.jpg
Bleh, If you cant make a good enlarge picture then I will

Heres a less pixalated of the picture.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/ ... atomy2.jpg

I messed around with lot's of settings in GIMP to try to make the image look better, but whenever I smoothed the pixelation out, like you did, then I felt that doing so actually detracted from the little bit of fine detail that there was.

...all that does is make it look out of focus...

The image you provided WAS "Pixelated". ...I just presented the most detailed, true representation of it as I could, in a larger size that did not require squinting.

Morkulv · Post by **Morkulv** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:31 am

Bizar...

Human: "Yay I've been biten by a werewolf! So now I become one myself!"

Human: *attempts to shift*

*drops braindead on the floor*

Shadow Wulf · Post by **Shadow Wulf** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:54 am

Vuldari wrote:
Shadow Wulf wrote:
Vuldari wrote: http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/4430 ... ger4vi.jpg
Bleh, If you cant make a good enlarge picture then I will

Heres a less pixalated of the picture.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/ ... atomy2.jpg
I messed around with lot's of settings in GIMP to try to make the image look better, but whenever I smoothed the pixelation out, like you did, then I felt that doing so actually detracted from the little bit of fine detail that there was.

...all that does is make it look out of focus...

The image you provided WAS "Pixelated". ...I just presented the most detailed, true representation of it as I could, in a larger size that did not require squinting.

To be honest, it doesnt pixelated pictures is much better at all, you still have to squint cause the detail looks distorded.

Edit: Damn Im good! If Im not the best image searcher in the pack then no one is.

Morkulv · Post by **Morkulv** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:07 am

Nice job!

Finally the right quality.

Vuldari · Post by **Vuldari** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:38 am

Morkulv wrote:Nice job! Finally the right quality.

What are you talking about?...that's just like the one he posted before. It's just another blurred, smudgy, out-of-focus looking zoom on the thumbnail.

...no better than the original...

I swear...you people are far too easily fooled and impressed...

Shadow Wulf · Post by **Shadow Wulf** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:50 am

Vuldari Vuldari, I should smack you silly for the low memory span.

this is the image that I posted after you,

The reason why thier both the same right now is because It was hosted from photobucket, and I switched the blurred version with the good version and the link is the same as the other one.

I thought you were the one with all the programs that fix images so thats why I sent you the tumbnail, and all you did was zoomed in on the picture.

Lupin · Post by **Lupin** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:53 am

Vuldari wrote:What are you talking about?...that's just like the one he posted before. It's just another blurred, smudgy, out-of-focus looking zoom on the thumbnail

Er... what are you talking about? The image just posted is a lot clearer than the zoom you did. Just look at the line work at the top. Perhaps you should look at your browser's cache settings.

Vuldari · Post by **Vuldari** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:15 pm

Lupin wrote:
Vuldari wrote:What are you talking about?...that's just like the one he posted before. It's just another blurred, smudgy, out-of-focus looking zoom on the thumbnail
Er... what are you talking about? The image just posted is a lot clearer than the zoom you did. Just look at the line work at the top. Perhaps you should look at your browser's cache settings.

...again...your eyes are FAR too easily fooled.

It's not Clearer...it's just fuzzier...which makes you think it is not lacking as much detail, because you can't see the jagged lines any more.

...but you get the same effect by looking at mine, standing back and squinting to make the image blurry.

The thumbnail is a low-rez, pixelated image. No program in the world can retrieve detail that isn't there.

Shadow Wulf...I DO have the powerful software...but I didn't "enhance" it because that is not really possible by simply clicking the "enhance" button, or messing around with sliders.

The only way to really do it would be to manually clean up the lines, and basically re-draw the entire image, making up the fine details the way I think they would have been.

I actually tried to fight against the program to stop it from "Enhancing" it, because it really isn't enhancing anyting at all...it's just making everything so blurry that you can't see the pixels any more.

Even so, it still did some smudging and blurring anyway. I'm not sure how to make a true, pixel perfect enlargement of the image in GIMP. I think I may need a simpler "stupid" program to do that without modifying it against my instructions.

..."Enhanced"...*laughs*...you really believe that, don't you?

[Edit:] You switched pics on me. THAT one is a little better...but it has still been "enhanced" by someone, blurring the image a bit.

That is not it's native resolution.

Nice find though...did you learn the artist, or find any of thier other work?

Shadow Wulf · Post by **Shadow Wulf** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:52 pm

nope this is the native resolution, this is all that I can find on the web. Its the same size as of that I found 3 years ago.

Morkulv · Post by **Morkulv** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:55 pm

*sharpens his eyes*

I still think its better quality... In any case, lets get back on-topic.

Vuldari · Post by **Vuldari** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:57 pm

Lupin was right...it was my Browser Cache...

Damn thing didn't refresh, even after re-viewing the image 3 times.

I swear...I even closed the browser to mess arround with the original thumbnail again and came back, and it STILL was only showing me the old, blurry one. ...I really need to check my settings or something...

That one is MUCH better.

Disregard my last post.

"...stupid non-refreshing browser...stupid files by the same name...computer not smart enough to show me the NEW one..." *grumbles*

Nice Find. Did you learn who the artist was?

Lupin · Post by **Lupin** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:01 pm

Shadow Wulf wrote:nope this is the native resolution, this is all that I can find on the web. Its the same size as of that I found 3 years ago.

So where was it?

Morkulv · Post by **Morkulv** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:03 pm

I am actually quite curious about the artist as well. Maybe he did more artwork like this.

Shadow Wulf · Post by **Shadow Wulf** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:46 pm

I found it at a forum, when I yahoo searched it, but Ill try to find the artist.

Morkulv · Post by **Morkulv** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:09 pm

Vuldari wrote:
Morkulv wrote:Indeed. Somehow I don't see werewolves as a 'kind of wolf', like (I think) a lot of other people do. I just go with the things that feels good. Like, for example, if a picture if somehow scary, I see it as a good part (although I'm also not a fan of 'demonized werewolves').
I think I know what you are saying. When I see a representation of a monster that is uniquely creepy looking, or in some way shocking, I can most certainly think of that "uniqueness" as a positive element of it's design, if it looks good.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say about Us, about Werewolves being thought of as a "Kind of Wolf". A werewolf is not a Wolf that stands up like a man. That would be an Anthro-Wolf. I don't know of anyone here who claims that is what a werewolf is.

IMHO: A Werewolf is something that goes back and fourth between being a human and being a wolf. ...and sometimes something inbetween that is both and niether.

What exactly are you implying that WE think a werewolf is? I don't think you made that as clear as you intended.

I would never describe ANY of my various versions of werewolves as "A Kind of Wolf"...

...as if a werewolf is "Canis Lycanthopus", a rare sub-breed of wolf, and not human at all.

Absolutely not. Is that what you thought that I beleived?

Morkulv wrote:Wolves just have a certain feeling. Wolf-fans and therians know that I mean by that. But I also think that humans also have a kind of 'feeling', and I'm curious of what it would be to blend those together. I think it would be very interesting and innovative.
Now THIS I can understand.

Allthough, I personally feel that most of the Unique "Vibe" I get from humanity (from a visual, aesthetic standpoint) is contained within the Eyes, and the facial expressions that belong only to us...and, in my personal opinion, these can be quite succesfully intigrated into a primarily animal head and face...which ends up looking much like the "Furry" style that is so popular right now.

That is not to say that I am against trying it differently...

...but I think the "Wolf Head" method WORKS, if you give it Human eyes, and the uniquely human ability to 'smirk', 'scowl', 'frown', 'smile', 'grimace', 'grin', and all of the other no-verbal expressions that only we make.

I will admit that your braincase argument holds great merrit. You can't just ignore that. Either the human looses some grey-matter durring a shift (effectively, "BrainDamage"), or to avoid that, the braincase must remain sufficiently large to fit the existing brain tissue without the need of significant alteration of said tissue.

...although...the idea that a person would permanently loose part of thier inteligence, and ultimately, thier humanity after thier first shift could be a great plot-point in a fear based Werewolf Story. You know...the kind of story where becoming a werewolf is a BAD thing, rather than the "Happy Time" gift that so many make it around here.

Inversely, a primarily human, ("WolfMan"), hairy, sharp toothed face with IN-Human eyes also works...where the 'shell' is human, but it's expressions become un-readable to a human being, making it's intentions unknown, and therefore inherantly frightening...as we are all instinctively afraid of the unknown.

Facial-expressions don't make something more 'humanish', IMO. At least, I think that a lot of people think that it does. I will admit that it looks good, but not as werewolf IMO. I think the human 'atmosphere' is that we are at one point terribly overpopulated in this world, but on the other way we are all different. If you watched the movie The Breakfast Club you know what I mean. Also, a lot of pictures (i.e: Goldenwolfen) suggest that werewolves 'act' like normal wolves. I don't agree with this. Ofcourse werewolves will act wolvish, but there should still be something inside a werewolf that makes a werewolf a werewolf, when it comes to that.

redwolfmoon · Post by **redwolfmoon** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:42 pm

Some time within the near future I will be posting a 'Race Chart', something showing the differences between races of lycans. This is in, an American does not look like a Russian, just as a N.American Werewolf does not look like a Russian Werewolf. Along with that I will also have something on facial expressions.

Morkulv, you might like one of the werewolves on the chart, if not, sorry. As to the tendancies and personality of the werewolf... I have to say that it stays you. If you live out in the woods and are very close to the wilderness, you'd probably hang in the forests. Although I love the thought images of a werewolf sitting at his computer typing away.
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Anatomy

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