How painful should the shift be? And...

[Fastenjaw]

The overly ridiculous painful shifting is something that I often don't favor even if its the first shift. Probably as a result from seeing it so often in werewolf films. Beyond that, I feel the shift should progressively be less painful or even progress to painless. Why would I expect to see reduced pain with recurring shifts? The body adapts to the changes and gets used to it so its not painful or not nearly as painful anymore. Also, as the werewolf (I assume they would) attains more control over the change and learn to control the shift, the werewolf would have minimal or no pain whenever the change comes. At least nothing that can distract you from doing something normally. I personally feel that if it continues to be painful, it will be fatal as eventually the body can't deal with the dramatic change at an older age. That is why I have a conflict with the supposed "longer life bonus" that is touted about as being the werewolf bonus. If its going to be painful every time and risks killing the werewolf every time, shouldn't a shift result in a shorter life span instead? Now with the way I would like to see it, the change should be more fluid based (almost like liquid) so the painful stretching and cracking is minimized or prevented. Who is to say shifting has to be full of strain and ridgidness? With that kind of a shift, not only would there be a greater level of suspense that can be made(I'll explain below), but there will be no need to risk overusing the same shift senario many times. Being totally distracted by the pain would mean a very high vulnerability to attacks while changing or even risk killing yourself either from the change itself or an indirect result of that. (such as loosing control of a car your driving)

Now about the suspense bonus. The reason why I feel this is a huge bonus to have it not be painful after X ammount of shifts is that the change can be quite cool and intimidating. Short fiction: Imagine a shady guy walking to you with a dead stare all while starting to shift. With each step his whole body seems to almost drift ever so closer into the gesalt form. The dead stare is even more menacing with the steadily growing muzzle. His ears slowly flow upwards. He is here to kill you. And he isnt slowing down. You start to shift as well but have not quite got the hang of it. In the pain you loose sight for a second as you lower your head. Still you progress in your shifting. The pain isn't excruciating like the first time but still makes your heart race and you gasp and breath rapidly. You look up getting ready to jump back. But he is gone. You stand up looking around, heart still racing, you quickly you look around but you fail to see him. You smell the air but fail to smell anything. Were you dreaming? Your heart starts to slow down as you look at you down. Trying to think of what just happened, you lower your head. A rattle to your right emenates through the left of the library. You turn left getting ready for what may come. Wide eyes and breathing heavily you slowly walk forward. Your heart is racing. You have never seen anyone change that way before! You freeze feeling something cold along your back. Petrified, you stand frozen...

The advantage of being able to shift with non distracting pain not only removes the repetative "painful screams, roars, and noisy shifting" every time change is needed. It can allow for silent changing and that is why it can be wayyyy more supenseful. You don't see it coming.

Remember the pain stems from the assumption that moving stuff around will hurt since things are twisting stretching and warping. But someone that has control over their shift could, say, shift slower which would be less painful. I am sure werewolves would fight other werewolves for whatever reason. They would attempt to exploit any weaknesses of their enemies particularly if the old school "always painful" morphing was done.

So how painful shouls a shift be? And should it continue to be painful after the first couple of changes?

[MuDD]

I think I'm going to have to go with an other vote, I like to think that a werewolf's transformations would only hurt if they fought the change, i.e you don't fight, it doesn't hurt, or atleast it doesn't hurt as much

[PariahPoet]

I would agree with Mudd.
I know biologically it would make sense for it to hurt, I just don't like the idea of it being painful. I just prefer it to be something that comes as naturally as moving your body, no big stress.

[JoshuaMadoc]

I think there should be a vote saying "You just feel awkward hearing your own body crackle and pop and not feel a thing".

[MoonKit]

I vote for painful but oddly pleasurable at the same time.

[White Paw]

I put down always painful...............any body altering experience would be,especially to that degree.

[Faolan Ruadh]

Dunno about you guys, but every time my shoulder, hip, or jaw pops out of (or even back into) joint, it hurts a bit, regardless of how many times I've done it before. I don't imagine that that sensation spread over my entire body could ever really be comfortable.

I can go for the idea of an endorphin-release being triggered that makes it oddly pleasureable at the same time. But probably no less debilitating and awkward for a few seconds. It is entirely possible that this disadvantage could eventually prove fatal. I don't see this as a reason not to include it. But then again, I don't really understand the attitude of some werewolf fans that werewolves (especially those that are framed in a purely biological context) should be completely free of the occasional vulnerabilities and weaknesses that characterize all living things, including every single apex predator.

Again, I think this all depends on your paradigm. Magical werewolves can, of course, be handled in almost an infinite variety of ways as long as they're consistant within their own laws of metaphysics. Werewolves built on a biological paradigm have to adhere at least partially to known laws of nature.

[PariahPoet]

There is no reason why joints would pop in or out of socket in a shift.

[FoxOfWar]

Hmm... I've always thought that the pain in shifts is over-appreciated in general. But it should be painful the first time, but gradually the pain would diminish, and even change to pleasure. For some, at least. Call me spoiled; I've read too much Animorphs.

The pain, while it realistically would be(think about your body rearranging itself impossibly... no, really. Think outside of the "spoiled were-fanatic"-box, here.) near-killing every single time... I don't think it works for the purposes of any werewolf fiction. But the drama of the first time should be there.

I think I made myself clear enough ;)

[Faolan Ruadh]

There is no reason why joints would pop in or out of socket in a shift.

Actually there is, if you're changing from human-to-wolf, or gestalt-to-wolf. There are several pieces of skeleton, such as the pelvis and sacrum have to be configured quite differently to handle bipedal/quadripedal motion. Whether that change would be accomplished by coming apart at the joints in that particular structure and rearranging, a "seismic" shift of the individual bony plates, or an unspecified warping, I can't see the stress on the nerves and tissues that surround the skeletal structure not causing significant discomfort. There are also bones in humans like the clavicles that simply don't exist in wolves at all.

It's also relevant to note that I don't think that dislocation is the only kind or origin of pain that is possible in a transformation (and that I am well aware, for example, that digitigrade legs are not "backward knees"), it was just the closest analogue in human experience that I could think of on the fly. Another good one that comes to mind, since our weres are of higher mass in their Gestalt form than human form is to think about the kinds of aches and pains (and stretch marks) that you got during your pre-adolescent /adolescent growth spurt. And that's a few inches over the course of months, not minutes.

[PariahPoet]

I see what you're saying and it's definately a valid point, but I have to say I still disagree(not that it matters, we all have a right to our own perception of how a shift would go.) I would think the bones would just re-form around the joint by changing shape and size rather than disassemble and go back together.
And I know this isn't your only point, but I have to point out that my mate has a genetic condition that affects his skeletal structure, so he has no collarbone and his shoulders pop in and out of socket on a regular basis. It's happened to him so many times now that sometimes he doesn't even realize the joint has popped out until it cuts off the blood supply and makes his arm fall asleep. If it suddenly jerks out of place, it still hurts him, but if it gradually slips out then he doesn't feel pain from it.
But that's just my take on the whole thing. Just wanted to explain my reasoning. ^_^

[vrikasatma]

In Werewolf:the Apocalypse, the shift is painful (it's a Stamina roll). It starts at Difficulty 6 or 7, but in my game I rule that for every rank you go up, the difficulty decreases by one, simply because you've had time to "get good at it." Elders can virtually just pop into whatever form with hardly a need to roll; there's a reason to be very afraid of lifelong weres.

The impression I got is that the first time, hell yeah it's painful, on the physical, emotional and mental planes. You're probably freaked out to begin with, it's even freakier to watch yourself turn into something else purportedly out of control, and your body is changing in rapidfire succession. Like mentioned in another thread, imagine a bodywide charlie-horse and bones breaking in the space of a minute or two.

[Syzygy]

Personally, I believe that it would be unbearably excruciating if not supressed. I think that the body would release certain chemicals to block the pain along the lines of epidural anestheia, but without the side affects and temporary paralysis.

[Terastas]

I think it would only hurt less in the sense that the werewolf would know what to expect of shifting and gradually become accustomed to it. Kind of like the difference between getting your first tattoo or getting a small addition to your Travis Barker treatment.

[Set]

I prefer for shifts not to hurt at all. I don't see a good reason for it to.

I suppose it could depend on the were, after all, the reasons I usually get when people try and justify the painful this-could-kill-you shifts are based on things like "Oh, well it hurts when you hit a growth spurt" and "Popping joints in/out of the socket is painful". Done both of those. Didn't hurt me at all.

The difference between the two shifts can easily be summed up this way: if I can shift without any problem, but you're writhing and screaming in pain on the floor, I can just shift before you and rip your throat out with my teeth. Doesn't matter if you're an uberwolf and I'm not, if you're disabled for that long I can kill you anyway.

What I don't get is the fact that so many people here scream "Oh, but werewolves have to be super-regenerating muscly 9 foot tall badasses!" and then go "...but the shifts hurt and could kill them. Even though they're practically invincible."

[Merrypaws]

I did have a little growth spurt pains, but nothing that would distract me too bad.

Generally, I'm with the school that says shifting might be a little painful, moreso if you try to fight it, but mostly it would just feel weird.

[Fastenjaw]

The thing is they are shapeshifters. Shape shifters can vary by how the method of shift is. And I feel shapeshifters can adapt because their bodies are literally restructuring itself. I agree that shapeshifting shouldnt make popping joints occur because the whole bone and the joint is seamlessly transitioning. I would assume the bones would get softer. But past shifting films suggest that everything is being warped like a growing tree or something. Organics mammals are not trees and bone can become soft if need be. The problem I find is the long life and death risk for shifting. Well then tell me. Have you ever seen a werewolf die in a film from shifting? I sure have not. Maybe in literature. But not in mainstream films. Thats whats so conflicting with me. I just dont see the imense pain being healthy or natural. Something THAT painful has to catch up with you real soon. A were should have reduced pain somewhere down the road to familiarity. Maybe even to the point where its not noticable or pleasurable. Yes things will theoretically hurt with a dramatic change. But to something that has been there, and done that, I just dont see it. Most species that can manipulate their bodies dont have pain. Their body already knows how to handle itself for dislocating bones and stretching skin and bones. Lycan's can adapt. Even if they are fictional.

The more I think about it, the more the "chance of shifting death" is mentioned and not actually played out, the more of a joke it becomes. And considering I have yet to see it done, I might as well label it a lie. Because nobody will ever want to see their favorite werewolf die from a shift. I highly doubt you will see creators axing their lycan characters from a failed shift because they may risk getting a big bashing from their fans who love a particular lycan. So yea. I feel the shift death is all garbage. It never really happends often enough to be even mentioned.

[RedEye]

Look at how we humans react to things: simple fact is that what starts out as very painful, after a while will become only a little painful (endorphan rush) and actually become desirable because of what it
signifies.
I'm talking about standing barefoot on a hard floor....
I spent two weeks in a Hospital bed and when I first stood up, my feet hurt like hell: I was pinching my soles between the bones of my feet and the hard floor.
Doesn't hurt anymore. Got used to it. Still there, It just isn't painful!
I imagine the SHIFT would be the same, after all....

[Vuldari]

I voted the second option...Allways painful, but slightly moreso the first time.

I am very much AGAINST the idea of it Ever being 'Painless'... or being not only completely painless, but also 'Pleasurable'.

That is just WAAAAY "Too good to be true"...it wrecks the whole illusion, and takes too much significance away from the action for the shifter. If it is as smooth and natural as bending your knee, then it is almost like it doesn't even matter.

...that's not cool...that's boring...IMHO


I just don't equate Werewolves as mere "Shapeshifters".

For me, Lycanthropy is, and allways has been a CURSE...and though it potentially can come with a great many desireable benefiets, it also comes with a very hefty price. Social Alienation is NOT ENOUGH.

Pain and some loss of controll is integural to what seperates a "Werewolf" from just a human, (a "Shapeshifter") who has the mystical, or biological capacity to physically transform into a Wolf, or Wolf-like creatrure.
...at least for me.

I think the act of transforming could be something that a werewolf could get pleasantly exited about, and ultimately enjoy...but even if they learn to like it...it would still hurt like hellfire.

(Like the way I enjoy a long, hard run, or climbing a rough tree...even though running makes my whole body ache, and tree climing often results in many painful scratches and bruises all over my arms and legs...I willingly endure the pain again and again because I enjoy the actions regardless.)

If there is No Pain durring transformation, and they are Never forced to transform 'Involuntarily', then they are a different kind of Shapeshifter, but NOT Werewolves, as far as I'm concerned.

[Herpscott]

I agree with Vuldari on this one. I guess I would want the shift to hurt a little too much for it to be the only way one acts. In other words, if a shifter is about to get into a fight with an anorexic 75 lb paraplegic, then shifting would be useless and far too painful to endure just to kick this person's a**. On the other hand, the were is targeted by a large group of burly corn-fed muscle-bound no-necked...well you get the picture. A shift in this instance would be logical.

Now, I also agree that the shift the first few times is incredibly painful to the extent that it instills fear into the were for further shifts. After several shifts, the brain would come to expect certain aspects, prepare itself for the most painful parts, etc. I like the idea of the pleasure during a shift. In fact I am a fan of it to the point that any masochist would be proud. That is, so painful it is pleasureable, almost orgasmic in nature. Why? Well, what better drama to instill in a bunch of burly muscle-bound etc, that this guy is going through what appears to be a painful metamorphosis and is ENJOYING it. Fear and paralysis sets in, the corn-fed dudes are bloody flesh piles.

The idea of shifter's death is an interesting one. In the book, "The Wolf's Hour," the character undergoes several months of gruelling metamorhosis and training of his new abilities as a child. The pack where he is being trained is weak and only the strongest can have surviving children. On a logical basis, this would be a must. If werewolves were easily bred and the death didn't occur, why would there be any humans left? They would all become food or they would become werewolves. True, I don't agree with the notion that every shift is a danger, but I do like the idea that very early on, the body and the brain may not be able to survive the transition. You're right when you say that people would not accept their favorite Lycan dying during shifting, however if you are trying to make a dramatic piece about a werewolf species that is just another part of nature and NOT the cursed beasts of lore and hollywierd, then it would offer some interesting and realistic dramas.

Just my 2 cents.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Good luck on being a sado-masochist, then.

[Herpscott]

[Shadow Wulf]

I agree with vuldari aswell. When you go into a transformation such as that your body is undergoing extravagant changes in short amount of time, in such a way the body cant possibly get use to completely to the point where it just becomes painless. Im sorry but no one, I mean no one gets use to incredible pain, they can endure it but they cant get use to it. Also I believe the point of the transformation is the intensity and adrenalyne that your going through making all these drastic changes, it hurts like hell but you look foward to it just like Vuldari said. No pain no gain. Ive seen some art transformation where the character goes through transformation and just simply enjoying it and act like if it was nothing, to me thats just boring and dull, you'll find it that the interesting transformations are usaully the painful ones. So My vote is always pain.

[Scott Gardener]

My own take is that it is painful in a newly infected individual, especially the very first time, though the next several times aren't entirely fun either. Ultimately, it gets easier as the body becomes accustomed to it, as the physiology of the body has been redesigned at the histological (tissues, or bunches of cells) level to do it.

After a few years, it's a lot harder not to do it.

[Figarou]

My own take is that it is painful in a newly infected individual, especially the very first time, though the next several times aren't entirely fun either. Ultimately, it gets easier as the body becomes accustomed to it, as the physiology of the body has been redesigned at the histological (tissues, or bunches of cells) level to do it.

After a few years, it's a lot harder not to do it.

Thats how I see it. Why should a shift always be painful if the werewolf has been doing it for...let say....20 years?

The body should already be "used to it." It should be a smooth flowing shift. A shift to where you don't even have to concentrate as hard to perform.