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Ralith Lupus wrote:*nods in reply to Scott*

Yeah, same here.

Scott Gardener wrote:
Nerves don't regenerate: Actually, they can a tiny bit. In simpler organisms, but ones that are still complicated enough to have a nervous system, they regenerate better. In designing a werewolf to regenerate better in general, one could--and probably should--include better neural regeneration.

A werewolf brain would have to be more resilient than a general human brain, as it would have to undergo regularly a drastic change in volume, squeezing itself down. But, while it's still being configured to do so, it could have problems, especially if things didn't happen in exactly the right order.

Exactly. ^__^

Scott Gardener wrote:
Nerves don't regenerate: Actually, they can a tiny bit. In simpler organisms, but ones that are still complicated enough to have a nervous system, they regenerate better. In designing a werewolf to regenerate better in general, one could--and probably should--include better neural regeneration.

I can live with that.

Scott Gardener wrote: A werewolf brain would have to be more resilient than a general human brain, as it would have to undergo regularly a drastic change in volume, squeezing itself down. But, while it's still being configured to do so, it could have problems, especially if things didn't happen in exactly the right order.

Hmmmm.....since you put it that way......

Figarou wrote:Hmmmm.....since you put it that way......

You are sooooooo funny. That's great

I think the skull should be mostly like the wolf but still the werewolf should be able to have some expressions. The anatomy comes from the animal but the expressions and stuff from a human

I still think a werewolf would turn into a dumb-a** when the brain shrinks and squeezes down.

Moonstalker wrote:I think the skull should be mostly like the wolf but still the werewolf should be able to have some expressions. The anatomy comes from the animal but the expressions and stuff from a human

Agree.

Hmmm...

Lots of information in the thread (Thanks for your input Scott)

There is a problem that we have not covered. As the werewolf changes part of their brain will ENLARGE.

Werewolves have more acute hearing and smell. The parts of the brain that control these will have to enlarge to contain more nuerons and connections.

The way I see the werewolf skull is that the muzzle will come out of a human skull and the top platten down. But it also becomes broader. The back of the skull which is rounded in a human can enlonogate to handle the new position that the spine enters.


Also remebmer that a wolf has very thick fur around its face and that can hide a lot of underlying features. Like the skull shape.


As for expression. Just look at a wolf.. or watch a malmute/husky/german shep. You can read a lot from the tilt of the head, set of the ears, and jaw/tounge position. I often speak to dogs by putting my hands above my head to give myself ears. The reactions are interesting and worthwhile.


Just my views

Marcwolf

Marcwolf wrote:Hmmm...
There is a problem that we have not covered. As the werewolf changes part of their brain will ENLARGE.

Werewolves have more acute hearing and smell. The parts of the brain that control these will have to enlarge to contain more nuerons and connections.

The way I see the werewolf skull is that the muzzle will come out of a human skull and the top platten down. But it also becomes broader. The back of the skull which is rounded in a human can enlonogate to handle the new position that the spine enters.

Also remebmer that a wolf has very thick fur around its face and that can hide a lot of underlying features. Like the skull shape.

I've always thought a werewolf should have a somewhat human-shaped skull, albeit with a muzzle. Many werewolf legends claim you can tell the difference between a werewolf and a real wolf by the human-like face or human-like eyes; perhaps this idea is based on the werewolf having a more human skull than a canine ought to have.

I'm not sure the brain would need to grow to accomodate more sensory input, but I've never studied such factors. I just haven't heard of cases where humans with greater than average senses of smell, hearing, or sight possess correspongly greater than average brain-sizes.


Though I will acknowledge that a werewolf's violent tendancies could be due to a reduced or reshaped medulla oblongata.

That, or he's mad that he has all those teeth and no toothbrush.

I am not in favor of a human skull, with a muzzle attached. I am in favor of a wolf skull, with a muzzle attached. IMO, the former would look stupid.

Excelsia wrote:I am not in favor of a human skull, with a muzzle attached. I am in favor of a wolf skull, with a muzzle attached. IMO, the former would look stupid.

You'd get more of an anthro/furry look, which works fine for gestalt form, if not wolf form. Properly blending the facial structure and moving the ears upwards helps immensely with the look, but a human-sized braincase limits your options. Surface details like facial structure, eye shape and color, fur pattern, and so forth can deliver much of the "animal" appearance even with a large brain. Besides, you can hide a lot of braincase underneath headfur on a human-sized (150-250lb) wolf.

Ultraken wrote:

Excelsia wrote:I am not in favor of a human skull, with a muzzle attached. I am in favor of a wolf skull, with a muzzle attached. IMO, the former would look stupid.

You'd get more of an anthro/furry look, which works fine for gestalt form, if not wolf form. Properly blending the facial structure and moving the ears upwards helps immensely with the look, but a human-sized braincase limits your options. Surface details like facial structure, eye shape and color, fur pattern, and so forth can deliver much of the "animal" appearance even with a large brain. Besides, you can hide a lot of braincase underneath headfur on a human-sized (150-250lb) wolf.

Maybe I'm just not reading it right, but I can't quite figure out whether you are agreeing with me or disagreeing. Anyway, I've seen my fair share of werewolf movies and werewolf art, and I have never, ever, been pleased by the way 'blending' of human and wolf look. To me, it always comes out looking ugly or stupid. I would prefer the head to be overwhelmingly canine. Not necessarily entirely wolf, maybe mix in some elements of a really fierce looking, imaginary canine that doesn't actually exist, but...no human. Ugh. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

I'm with you, for the most part. The head should be entirely wolf, if scaled up a bit to allow for brain volume.

I was trying to look at the problem another way.

I agree with you that the gestalt form's face and ears should be mostly lupine/canine, as those together provide most of the distincive "wolflike" appearance. A wolf's head is already fairly sizeable, though, so just scaling it up won't work. Providing enough room inside the braincase for a human-sized brain requires some finagling with the structure, but I think that can be achieved without losing the mostly-canine appearance. Thick hair/fur on the head and neck would likely hide the large braincase, sweeping the problem under the rug (so to speak).

This, of course, presumes that you want to retain mostly-human intelligence in gestalt form, which you may or may not agree with.

(I'm certainly not advocating the "wolf man" style. Bleah.)

Heh. We'll need someone with a lot of letters after their name to tell us just how much change is necessary. Just put me down on record as saying "As wolfish as possible."

Ultraken wrote: This, of course, presumes that you want to retain mostly-human intelligence in gestalt form, which you may or may not agree with.

YES.

OK, we're on the same page there, at least.

I think that's one thing we can all agree on.

I didn't want to assume it as a given, even if it's the way I handle my characters.

It's not as cut-and-dried for the wolf form if you want it to pass for a structurally-normal if large wolf. A human's brain is 11 times larger than a wolf's brain, so a simple scaling-up would yield a nearly half-ton wolf (!). There's going to be some structural differences in wolf form if you want to keep a human-size brain in its head.

(FYI, I noticed the "shift" icon definitely loses skull volume there at the end.)

Do know that brain size sometimes do -not- confirm the IQ of said living organism.

That or i haven't been reading the topic properly... AGAIN.

Yeah, but squishing a brain into a smaller space can't be good for it.

I dunno, i mean Albert Einstein had a brain smaller than mine and he invented the atom bomb... i think. But that's because he's diagnosed with autism, just like me.

But there WOULD be a percentage where small brains does not equal lower IQ (well, i'm not sure about a stegosaurus...), though i'm not certain of what the figures are. As discussed in another thread, i'm left with the conclusion that nature's invisible designer's unpredictable, if not totally random affinity when creating or modifying leaves the speculated intellect of a shrunk brain (in this case) to be wholly unconfirmed.

And i think i just fried my brain speaking like a computer just then.

I don't think there's really going to be any way to satisfactorily conserve brain space in wolf form, or gestalt form, if we have the heads as canine as we want them. So, I think we're going to have to chalk this up to falling within bounds of 'suspension of belief'.

For anatomically-accurate wolf form, at least, that was where I was inevitably headed. I'm not sure how much functionality could be preserved with 10%-20% of the brain volume, but it could be just barely enough to conserve personality and basic memories. For this reason, werewolves might be reluctant to change to full wolf form...

(I tend to skirt the issue by giving the werewolf's wolf form a lot of head and neck fluff to hide the larger braincase. I'd rather cheat in favor of human personality than force perfect symmetry between human and wolf forms.)

I think a wolf's brain volume is a little bit larger than 10%-20% of ours. As the wolf form would be unusually large in the first place (I'm following a conservation of matter idea; all forms having the same mass), I think a few changes to skull dimensions, hidden in the fur as suggested, would be perfectly acceptable.