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Fenrir wrote:So we're in agreement about the 1 to 2 foot hight increase.

Yep!

Good!

I'am surprised Fig didn't add some bad pun and say something like

Hey don't you get short with me (to the people who wanted shorter werewolves)

I stand very straight when on my toes, but it doesn't make more than a 3-inch difference. Which means I'm still short. And despite my horrible balance, I can still be perfectly fine walking around like that. If I bend too far foward or back though I fall over. A wolf tail isn't a balancer like a big dinosaur tail so if they leaned too far foward they would fall flat on their faces.

And I think 1-2 feet of extra height is rediculous. I would NEVER be 6'3" even if I was a werewolf. It just won't happen. My limit it 5'6", and that's on the tip of my toes with no slouching.

I'm too lazy to read through the entire topic again but I think someone already said this...I'm gonna say it anyway. Even though the feet get longer the other bones will shrink. In digitigrade creatures, especially fast runners, the thigh is the shortest bone in the leg. If you look at a wolf skeleton you'll see just how much shorter it is in comparison to the bone that runs from the ankle to the toes (I forget the name of it). So really the werewolf in gestalt form would be the same height as the human form standing on it's toes. Which means no more than four inches of height increase.

Reiluna wrote:I stand very straight when on my toes, but it doesn't make more than a 3-inch difference. Which means I'm still short. And despite my horrible balance, I can still be perfectly fine walking around like that. If I bend too far foward or back though I fall over. A wolf tail isn't a balancer like a big dinosaur tail so if they leaned too far foward they would fall flat on their faces.

And I think 1-2 feet of extra height is rediculous. I would NEVER be 6'3" even if I was a werewolf. It just won't happen. My limit it 5'6", and that's on the tip of my toes with no slouching.

I'm too lazy to read through the entire topic again but I think someone already said this...I'm gonna say it anyway. Even though the feet get longer the other bones will shrink. In digitigrade creatures, especially fast runners, the thigh is the shortest bone in the leg. If you look at a wolf skeleton you'll see just how much shorter it is in comparison to the bone that runs from the ankle to the toes (I forget the name of it). So really the werewolf in gestalt form would be the same height as the human form standing on it's toes. Which means no more than four inches of height increase.

But the werewolf looks so much cooler when it gains 2-3 feet in height.

Oh well, everyone has thier preferences.

My character is 9 feet tall, by the way.

mines 8 1/2.

This is one of those situations where I want artistic effect to trump physics to some small degree. Taller werewolves just look cooler, and I think a 1-2 foot increase isn't too unbelieveable.

Lupin wrote:This is one of those situations where I want artistic effect to trump physics to some small degree. Taller werewolves just look cooler, and I think a 1-2 foot increase isn't too unbelieveable.

You would if you spent some time with someone who is a foot taller than you. They look HUGE. Two feet taller is GIGANTIC.

...and I disagree...I don't think taller Werewolves look "cooler" ...just "scarier". They still look the same...only Bigger.

(On an insignificant side note, my fantasy 'alter-ego' "Ander J. Rahl" is actually an inch shorter than me...and he Kicks A**...)

Vuldari wrote: Two feet taller is GIGANTIC

Well, that is sort of the point.

Lupin wrote:

Vuldari wrote: Two feet taller is GIGANTIC

Well, that is sort of the point.

...maybe if you prefer to think of werewolves mostly as "Walking Death Machines...with Fur".

Can't. International treaty says death machines have to be at least 12ft tall.

I'm sorry that I keep comming back to this topic whenever it comes up just to disagree with everyone.

...It just drives me crazy every time I come across a comment that suggests that it is an undeniable fact that Big Werewolves are Always better and cooler than Human sized or Wolf sized ones, which I feel is complete B*** S***...

I'm not saying OverSized Werewolves "suck" or anything...I'm just trying to say that Werewolves don't NEED to be a minimum of 7 1/2 feet tall to be cool.

...and besides...something does not have to be Bigger than you to be able to KILL you...

Heh. Unless you are on a boat int international waters. Then they can be what ever the Capt'n says they can be. ;) hehehe.

My thoughts ( and yeah I scanned through all three pages ):

The way I typically draw my were's is with teh extended foot. To compensate for the ungainly-ness of it, I shorten the thigh and calf as much as woul dbe comfortable. To my mind's eye that "looks" better. Of course no everyone will agree. ;)

With center of balance in mind, I make the paw pads on the foot BIG, because they will be holding a LOT of weight on just two legs.

Also a note of difference between canine and human physiology - kneecaps and bone structure. Bone structure is modified to support the musculature in teh legs. This helps with balance, and locomotion.

If we change any of these, we have to take into considering the -force- of the weight on the knees. The knee caps helps keep our knees for turning into "Barbie knees", ie bending backwards. ouch >.< This helps us alos keep our balance.

Canines don't have the same structures because they are built for quad-gaits. Even when standin g"upright" their legs don't lengthen out completely as human's do. One, their muscle structure won't really allow for it. Two, their bones are shaped for it.


Hybridize it, and you have to take into consideration the amount of weight and force on the joints. Biggers animals have bigger joints ( Elephants, draft horses, girraffee, etc ).

So a slightly larger joint on a digigrade form is going to add some small height to the werewolf. Say 2-3 inches for becoming digigrade ( up on toes ), plus some for joint size to compensate for weight and force ( 3-4 ).


~~

next thought: Neck and head.

When a -wolf- stands upright, they can be as taller if not -TALLER- then your average human. The HEADS on wolves are nearly the same size as a humans. They are huge animals. Just in general. I never really realized this until I saw some of the Wolves at Wolf park and their photgraper standing and 'chilling' together. An associate of mine who also does wolf photos, showed me some of his photos, and those a friend took of him carrying a young wolf. crazy.


Now take into account, as has been said, that the head and neck are built for more varied positions. The neck is longer, and attached differnetly at the shoulders.

When upright it'd be slightly further back and leaning forward *points to above pic of dog*. Now say the length of the neck gies the overall height an additional 1.5 to 2 inches ( we are up to what almost 5-6 inches? ). Add in the shape of the head and ears ( yea sure let be picky ), for another .5-full inch. ( 6-7 now ).



Next thought: Torso.

If the werewolf is to be able to run on all fours, its torso will have to compensate for the length of arms and legs. Too long and you got some freaky look werewolf girraffe!, To short and we got the "hotdoggin" look. Arms and legs would have the possibility of getting tangled up and *thud* there you go, face first in teh dirt.

Having a longer torso to compensate for the arms and legs woul dgive you another possible 2-3 inches ( maybe more ).


So I could see a werewolf ebing a good foot to 1.5 taller then your average human. Bigger human-formed werewolves would get dang scarry. Heck I'd pee myself if Shaq turned big and fuzzy. I've seen him IRL and you know what.. he HUGE normally.

I'd be muchly afear'd of any big guy of 6 foot or better turning big and fuzzy!

They ain't got to be Hy-UGE to be scarry. ;)


Sorry.., it got really long.

Vuldari wrote:I'm sorry that I keep comming back to this topic whenever it comes up just to disagree with everyone.

...It just drives me crazy every time I come across a comment that suggests that it is an undeniable fact that Big Werewolves are Always better and cooler than Human sized or Wolf sized ones, which I feel is complete B*** S***...

I'm not saying OverSized Werewolves "suck" or anything...I'm just trying to say that Werewolves don't NEED to be a minimum of 7 1/2 feet tall to be cool.

...and besides...something does not have to be Bigger than you to be able to KILL you...

Dude, I'd be awfully scarred of somethign that could eat my intestines as much as something that could kncok my head off. ^.^

Werewolves are just -scarry- and they are ment to be. Hollywood is the one that made them get bigger and bigger.

feh. Gemme pit-bull sized. Now that's scarry!

ok...lets have it where the werewolf is just 6feet tall.

oh...and wolves are smaller than humans. Explain where the mass goes when he shifts to wolf form.

Figarou wrote:ok...lets have it where the werewolf is just 6feet tall.

No one has to agree with me, nor does anyone need to comprimise solely for my sake. If 9 out of 10 Pack Members prefer tall Werewolves, then I think that is the way we should go. (Whether or not I like it.)

Really, I was just debating this comment:

Lupin wrote:...Taller werewolves just look cooler...

I disagree. I think Taller Werwolves just look "Taller".

...that is all...

Figarou wrote:ok...lets have it where the werewolf is just 6feet tall.

That works for me. Average sized human becomes average sized werewolf.

So if someone were BIG then teh werewolf woul dbe 'naturally' bigger. If a human were short ( midget! whoohoo! Knee-biters attack! ) then the werewolf would be slightly shorter if not the same size as your average human.

yes?

Figarou wrote:oh...and wolves are smaller than humans. Explain where the mass goes when he shifts to wolf form.

Good question. Hmmm...

Well...if we are not going to explain how they get Bigger then why explain how they can get Smaller? (Which they would do when going from 8-foot gestalt back to Human again as well.)

...just as long as they don't BURP the extra matter out into the air like in "The Witches".

Vuldari wrote:

Figarou wrote:ok...lets have it where the werewolf is just 6feet tall.

No one has to agree with me, nor does anyone need to comprimise solely for my sake. If 9 out of 10 Pack Members prefer tall Werewolves, then I think that is the way we should go. (Whether or not I like it.)

Really, I was just debating this comment:

Lupin wrote:...Taller werewolves just look cooler...

I disagree. I think Taller Werwolves just look "Taller".

...that is all...

Like I said earlier...everyone has thier preferences.

Vuldari wrote:Really, I was just debating this comment:

Lupin wrote:...Taller werewolves just look cooler...

I disagree. I think Taller Werwolves just look "Taller".

...that is all...

That entire post was an opnion. I thought I made that clear by saying "I want" and "I think."

Edit: Not to mention that calling sometthing 'cool' tends to be a statement of opnion, and not one of fact.

Figarou wrote:oh...and wolves are smaller than humans. Explain where the mass goes when he shifts to wolf form.

Description: Length 4.5 to 6 feet, including tail; Height 26 to 34 inches at the shoulder; Weight 70 to 110 pounds - females generally 5 to 10 pounds lighter than males; Coloration ranges from white to black with combinations between with gold, tan, brown and rust (a single litter can contain a variation of colors)




4.5 to 6 feet in length. When they -stand up- they are as tall if not taller then your average human. Since we are talking about height ;)

70-110 lbs - different body structure and bone structure.


Now:

Our bodies are built like pillars and have to carry that weight. Thus our bones are heavier. Bones weight more then muscle.., muscles weights more then fat.

Average human height/weight:

Male - 5'9" = 121-163
Female - 5'4" = 108-144

Now there are some women who are 5'6" and weight only 98 lbs. *shrugs*

A good portion of that weight comes from bones. If bone mass were converted to muscle, sinuew and organ mass, werewolves would be some pretty heavy wolves. Possibly Dire-wolf in size/mass? *shrugs* meh.

Or the weight could stay the same, considering that the bones are being tweeked somethign fierce in the Change. It could be one of the telling factors of a werewolf. They just weight slightly more then your average human, because of the mass of their bones. no matter their form?

*grins*

Vuldari wrote:

Figarou wrote:ok...lets have it where the werewolf is just 6feet tall.

No one has to agree with me, nor does anyone need to comprimise solely for my sake. If 9 out of 10 Pack Members prefer tall Werewolves, then I think that is the way we should go. (Whether or not I like it.)

Really, I was just debating this comment:

Lupin wrote:...Taller werewolves just look cooler...

I disagree. I think Taller Werwolves just look "Taller".

...that is all...

Meh.., I of a mine set that taller werewolves do not look cooler. They look like landstriders from "The Dark Crystal". feh. The werewolves from "Dog Soldiers" had a lot goign for them.., but I -did not- like th efact that they looked like werewolf-girraffees. Makes my brain hurt.

Now over-all Bigger werewolves, not just taller, impress me more. But then I like "big" things. Draft horses, Big burly guys, heavier dog species ( pits and rottis ), thinsg that have muscle and mass to them. Skinny0legged werewolves look sad. And ya know what.,

I see a skinny-legged werewolf comeing at me I'm not goign to run. I'm goign to bust their skinny little legs. ;) *chuckles* Well maybe after I pee myself in fear. *grins*

So, I am along the lines of taller is not cooler. That is indeed my opinion. *smiles*

Trinity wrote:

Figarou wrote:oh...and wolves are smaller than humans. Explain where the mass goes when he shifts to wolf form.

Description: Length 4.5 to 6 feet, including tail; Height 26 to 34 inches at the shoulder; Weight 70 to 110 pounds - females generally 5 to 10 pounds lighter than males; Coloration ranges from white to black with combinations between with gold, tan, brown and rust (a single litter can contain a variation of colors)




4.5 to 6 feet in length. When they -stand up- they are as tall if not taller then your average human. Since we are talking about height ;)

70-110 lbs - different body structure and bone structure.


Now:

Our bodies are built like pillars and have to carry that weight. Thus our bones are heavier. Bones weight more then muscle.., muscles weights more then fat.

Average human height/weight:

Male - 5'9" = 121-163
Female - 5'4" = 108-144

Now there are some women who are 5'6" and weight only 98 lbs. *shrugs*

A good portion of that weight comes from bones. If bone mass were converted to muscle, sinuew and organ mass, werewolves would be some pretty heavy wolves. Possibly Dire-wolf in size/mass? *shrugs* meh.

Or the weight could stay the same, considering that the bones are being tweeked somethign fierce in the Change. It could be one of the telling factors of a werewolf. They just weight slightly more then your average human, because of the mass of their bones. no matter their form?

*grins*

well, the legs of the human is longer and bigger than the arms. The wolf front legs and back are the about the same size.

If a human becomes a wolf, does the arms get bigger to match the legs? Or does the legs shrink to match the size of the arms?

Trinity wrote:
So, I am along the lines of taller is not cooler. That is indeed my opinion. *smiles*

Ummm..you know that everyone has a different way of saying something, right?



Someone could be use to the word "taller." He may say that instead of "bigger." "Taller" doesn't always mean "skinnier." The english language can be confusing at times.

My opinion is that the entire body re-shapes to fit the different sizes and needs.

If the Freeborn werewolves are to be 'made' capable of running on both two and fourlegged gaits in gestaalt form, then tehre needs to be a cmpromise between the forms of human and wolf.

This is why I suggest and support the idea that the bones are/become heavier, in order to deal with the constant shifting of forms. Its along the lines of - if you beat a metal hard enough it aligns the atoms - thus making the metal stronger, tougher, and holds its edge longer.

The hands would widen and lengthen, since the hands now have to support the weight of a geslatl when on all fours. The fingers would become slightly double jointed, so they retain some of the dexterity og human hands, but yet can take the beating that wolves paws do. ( Goldenwolf and Ky had worked out an ingenious ( imo ) way this would work. I WISH I could find Ky's model references! )

The forearms would lengthen more, where the upper arms would either not lengthen or shorten some. Canine forearms do not come past their chest 'point'. Their elbows are about equal to their 'chest point', ( breast bone, etc.., ).

The upper legs would shorten, the shins would shorten as well to compensate for the feet. Otherwise they'd stay about the same overall "length", just with "toe" inches ( since they are now standin tiptoe instead of flat footed ).

The torso would lengthen and become slightly more barrel chested, but not in the style of Gorillas.., otherwise the gait of th ewerewolf would look Gorilla like and very .., bleck. ( again IMO ).

Wolves have narrower chest then most dog species do ( aside from the sprinter species like greyhounds ). The front paw-prints will "land" on top of each other, as do the back paws, primairly. So wolves "run in a straight line". Most dogs make a double-set of tracks..., wolves make a single set. This is in part -because- of their chests and how it is shaped.


So I am seeing, in my mind's eyes, a werewolf that is heavier ( though not heavier bodied ) naturally. Who's form doesn't morph too much beyound what coul dbe considered "proper", with some phsyics kept in mind. The wolf form would be larger then a normal wolf ( weight wise ), but not over-all length wise.


Again.., this is an opinion, and my ideals are -not- the same as others.

Figarou wrote:

Trinity wrote:
So, I am along the lines of taller is not cooler. That is indeed my opinion. *smiles*

Ummm..you know that everyone has a different way of saying something, right?



Someone could be use to the word "taller." He may say that instead of "bigger." "Taller" doesn't always mean "skinnier." The english language can be confusing at times.

Shaq is not the same as a 6'9" football player either. ;) *chuckles*

I've seen REALL tall built guys, and really tall super sakiny guys. So yes I know.., But on average ( as far as I know ) most really tall guys are not built heavy, Too much weight on their bodies. ouch.

*tosses a dukie at Figarou*