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Yes I always enjoy a good discussion of viewpoints, without people getting angry or illogical.

That's one of the things I like about this forum. People don't always agree, but I've never noticed a flame war since I've been here.

vrikasatma wrote: "In order to have stopped Hitler and the Nazi Regime from rising and causing WWII, you'd have had to have stopped WWI, because Germany wound up getting screwed when they lost that war. That's where they went sour and that's what put Adolf and his buddies on the path to Hell."
Question 2: How do you stop WWI? I'll let y'all chew on that little chestnut. Meanwhile...

Personally I doubt that you would have to completely stop WWI. You would just haeve to make sure that Germany didn't get screwed over in the Treaty of Versailles.

[nods] Good point.
Young turking a treaty is a LOT easier than stopping a war; not even the participants knew where it would wind up going when it got started.

H'mm...more food for thought

How I want to die: I don't. I don'tdon'tdon'tdon'tdon't. I don't even like saying it's inevitable. People that just shrug and say, Well, you're going to, so why bother about it? frighten me. I just..don't. Aslan walk beside me, so that I mightn't be afraid, just walk beside me a little while...I am afraid of the dark.

Now...as to the other mentioned issues.

Why would you have respect for ones who wouldn't participate? And why would you respect them more than ones who gave their lives? How can one serve a greater cause by doing nothing?

Also, sometimes one has to murder some people to achieve a greater good. The ends justifies the means.

Of course those are just my opinions. I guess that's the bible belt in me coming out.

Perhaps I should have clarified. The ends justifies the means when the overall benefit of the end is greater than the consequence of fulfilling the mean. No dog could ever be more important than a child.

What if there was a man running around with a contagious, deadly disease that hadn't spread to anyone yet but inevitably would? Would you kill him so the disease wouldn't spread to everyone else? If he would not willingly submit to quarantine, I most certainly would.

Well, you and I obviously have very different opinions on the value of human life. Honestly, I've never thought human life was as 'precious' as everyone else seems to. I will pretty much always believe that the ends justifies the means (in most circumstances), but I respect your opinions. Kudos on raising many valid points.

I'm answering chronologically to each part, so it doesn't get confusing.

I think that, more than anything, we must have respect for everyone. Everyone plays a role. But I do not support death, and for me, it's been very hard to say that I won't fight. If I were called to fight, maybe to die, I would refuse. Not because I would be afraid, but because, to me, killing is wrong. I don't mean killing for food. I mean destroying life because of petty reasons, because of a difference in beliefs, or something similar. Respect the people who are brave enough, strong enough, to sacrifice themselves. But also, please, respect the people that will not sacrifice themselves, because it's so hard. So very, very hard.

I don't feel that anybody should ever have to die for the greater good. I don't want to challenge your interpretation of your religion, please don't take it this way, but how can you say that it's the bible belt coming out in you to say that killing is alright? I can't see the benefit ever being better than the deaths when life is involved. Slaughter of life for a cause is never the answer. Not when those slaughtered have no say. In the Bible, killing another person for any reason is a sin. It was part of the sadness of Christ, but also the magnitude of His sacrifice. It was His gift. No other death is justified. No other death is for a greater cause than that which He gave us.

As for the weighing of life...no life should be held in higher respect than another. And I try...I do...never to take preference. Because life is a precious thing. I've heard of children, children old enough to understand exactly what they're doing, brutally torture and torment animals. Tear them apart, kill them slowly, beat them to death, do things to them that you won't even see in horror films. To Christ, to Aslan, all are one and precious. We are smarter and capable of making the greatest changes in our world, and we should protect His other children, not dismiss them.

If the man would not submit willingly, I would forcibly quarantine him, myself, but try to make his existance as fulfilling as possible to make up for this wrong I've done him.

I feel that all life is precious. He that died for all of us felt so. It is our duty to protect all life, and to love our fellow man, even when he drives us so mad with his stupidity we could explode for violent frustration. Death is not the answer. It's only the easy way out. I apologize for the spam.

I can understand why a lot of people would choose old age, but personally, I don't like the idea of me ever having a sick bed. I'd like to live a long life, but not so long that I'm not even strong enough to reach over and unplug myself, or worse, that I develop Alzheimer's (sp?) and forget why I'm plugged in to begin with.

And immortality doesn't sit too well with me either -- I'd rather remember what the Earth was like in my afterlife than live on until the Sun explodes. I'd like to live a long life, yes, but I'd also like to die before they develop the technology to keep disembodied heads alive in jars like they do in Futurama -- I'd rather be dead than tormented beyond reason every time my nose itches.

Hmm... Maybe I'm crazy, but personally I'd like to die the way Amelia Earhardt, Jimmy Hoffa, D.B. Cooper and Elvis did (no, not in a plane crash or on the crapper), but in such a way that nobody even knows I'm dead. Maybe I'm just crazy, but I think no matter how I died, I'd be able to have fun-filled afterlife if I could see tabloid magazines with the title "Terastas Back to Neptune" from wherever I was floating around.

And if they do find my remains, I don't want anyone crying at my funeral. Screw wakes and funerals -- I want my ashes mixed into fireworks, and right before the show for someone to announce that it's my parting gift.

Whatever the case may be, I just don't want to be remembered as a dead man.

I wouldn't like to die at all, immortality all the way babah! ;)

Though if I had to, I suppose the entire classic and painless *in his sleep* would suffice.

vrikasatma wrote:Regarding: Killing one for the greater good.
This comes back to that old ethics warhorse question: If you had a chance to go back in time to kill Hitler before WWII started, would you do it?
My answer was varied over time and as I got wiser.
My first answer was, "I'd go back in time and try to draw him away from the path he wound up taking." Playing devil's advocate here: he did revitalize the country and pulled Germany up by its bootstraps; this was not a bad thing, in and of itself. But something went screwy with the wiring somewhere along the line and what could have been a chance for true greatness, went bad and became the epitome of corruption and evil personified.
So when I was thinking on that later, I asked myself the same question and answered thus:
"In order to have stopped Hitler and the Nazi Regime from rising and causing WWII, you'd have had to have stopped WWI, because Germany wound up getting screwed when they lost that war. That's where they went sour and that's what put Adolf and his buddies on the path to Hell."
Question 2: How do you stop WWI? I'll let y'all chew on that little chestnut. Meanwhile...

*snip*

Would you just try to talk Hitler out of it? Or would you just kill him?

no, nononononono, no. No. You wouldn'thave had to stop world war one-you would have had to change the circumstances of the treaty that foreced germany to pay war reparations. the president at the time essentially said, "we will get a hitler". he warned at forcing germany to be 'oppressed' by the german viewoin- it will only create a greater catastropy- but no one listened. the greatest impulse for anyone with an ypride is side against oppression, is to push it away and take controll. hiter was bad, but if he hadn't done it someone els would have come along. frankly, the president predicted it, it came to pass, and it was ignored. i know this because we have a book from 1918/9 thatwas 'questions about te war." we had fun reading it becasue of the hilarious wording and weird names, but my dad foiund a passage, a quote from the prident, predicting, essentially, world war II.

Fixing the Treaty of Versailles — I think someone else brought up that point. I'll remember this topic next time someone brings that ethical chestnut up again...

We can't go back in time and stop the Nazi Regime, but we can stay vigilant and using that model, work to prevent another one from happening again. The problem with working towards the future using the lessons of the past, is that finding the right path is always a crap shoot at best and you can never tell whether you were right in the first place, because nothing happens.

Did nothing happen because the fear was unjustified in the first place, or did nothing happen because we made sure nothing <i>would</i> happen?

Example: 9/11 hijackings. Security is on the ball that day and bust a bunch of Arab guys, and find box cutters and carpet knives in their carry-ons. Hijackers thrown in irons and taken off to the pokey, the hijackings never happen, September 11, 2001 is just another day and passes uneventfully, except for a few liberals yelping and snarling about racial profiling and a couple mosques and imams issuing comments about the indignity these four men suffered.

9/11 doesn't happen and at the time, next to nobody knows what would have happened if those guys hadn't been busted. No, you only know if the s*** goes down — and of course, by then it's 'way too late and you have a case of "My God...we were right..." 20/20 hindsight.

NarnianWolfen wrote:
I'm answering chronologically to each part, so it doesn't get confusing.

I think that, more than anything, we must have respect for everyone. Everyone plays a role. But I do not support death, and for me, it's been very hard to say that I won't fight. If I were called to fight, maybe to die, I would refuse. Not because I would be afraid, but because, to me, killing is wrong. I don't mean killing for food. I mean destroying life because of petty reasons, because of a difference in beliefs, or something similar. Respect the people who are brave enough, strong enough, to sacrifice themselves. But also, please, respect the people that will not sacrifice themselves, because it's so hard. So very, very hard.

I don't feel that anybody should ever have to die for the greater good. I don't want to challenge your interpretation of your religion, please don't take it this way, but how can you say that it's the bible belt coming out in you to say that killing is alright? I can't see the benefit ever being better than the deaths when life is involved. Slaughter of life for a cause is never the answer. Not when those slaughtered have no say. In the Bible, killing another person for any reason is a sin. It was part of the sadness of Christ, but also the magnitude of His sacrifice. It was His gift. No other death is justified. No other death is for a greater cause than that which He gave us.

As for the weighing of life...no life should be held in higher respect than another. And I try...I do...never to take preference. Because life is a precious thing. I've heard of children, children old enough to understand exactly what they're doing, brutally torture and torment animals. Tear them apart, kill them slowly, beat them to death, do things to them that you won't even see in horror films. To Christ, to Aslan, all are one and precious. We are smarter and capable of making the greatest changes in our world, and we should protect His other children, not dismiss them.

If the man would not submit willingly, I would forcibly quarantine him, myself, but try to make his existance as fulfilling as possible to make up for this wrong I've done him.

I feel that all life is precious. He that died for all of us felt so. It is our duty to protect all life, and to love our fellow man, even when he drives us so mad with his stupidity we could explode for violent frustration. Death is not the answer. It's only the easy way out. I apologize for the spam.

*Groan*

Sorry, but I think that killing for the greater good is ok, when other alternatives are not possible. That's kinda how I've always felt. Yeah, I know Jesus submitted willingly, and I realize that's a heck of a lot different that unwillingly.

But think about all the wars that God's people got into in the bible. God frequently blessed them, and gave them victory over their opponents. That was killing for the greater good. There are many instances in which the heroes of the bible kill other people. If they can do it, why should it be any different now?

I'm not in favor of killing. I want to clarify that. But when the death of one preserves the life of many, I'm sorry, but for me, that's an easy choice.

As to the Hitler question, yeah, I'd kill him. If I knew there was no other alternative, and that his death would have stopped all the death and damage he'd caused, hell yes I would definitely take him down.

Then I'm sorry that we disagree with each other, but of course you're entitled to your beliefs. And I have no animosity toward you as a person.

How would I like to die?

No, I'll pass, but thanks for offering.

You know i feel like I just had to say this but is it natural to feel uncertain about life after death it just scares me that it could end and we would cease to exsist.

Scott Gardener wrote:How would I like to die?

No, I'll pass, but thanks for offering.

You will die a slow and painful death. Fisrt Ill start by ripping off your toe nell, then ill perform surgery on your leg, then I will pull your skin off little by little, after that ill pour acid all over your body.

ofcourse im not that much of a sadist, I dont like to make people suffer unless that they took something very valuable from me.

EW Great idea *waits for sister to fall aslleep*

How would I like to die?

No, I'll pass, but thanks for offering.

*PUNished*

if i had to choose, id' say: an attack from an alien species, preferably Zerg... a Hydralisk to be exact. those things are soo cute!

Darum wrote:if i had to choose, id' say: an attack from an alien species, preferably Zerg... a Hydralisk to be exact. those things are soo cute!

*nods* cute as a [spoiler]panic[/spoiler] button.

Also, overheard my brother/roommate having the exact same discussion with some of his lady friends, and was... Well, actually sort of horrified to hear him say almost the exact same thing I did: He didn't care how he died, just how he was presented and thought of afterwards.

The (much appreciated) difference is that his demand was that his funeral be as cheap as possible. And long story short, the most popular suggestion repeated by his friends spawned the idea for a new wolf smiley: howling whilst swirling down the potty (might be frequently used it future Darkwolf discussions too).

I would like to die amonst friends in the arms of my mate.