The USFWS HAS GONE TO FAR NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shadow Wulf · Post by **Shadow Wulf** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:53 pm

this is real Bull S***!!! I fint people to be the most ignorant thing alive. People dont realize that wolves are in the lower food cgain and makes them more imporatant than us. We are basicaly useless in the food chain, we serve no purpose for other animals. And yet these farmers and government thinks that these are stupid animals and that they do not deserve to live, well I can tell you this....If I was out there Id bring my rifle and shoot every hunter that comes across there.

Aki · Post by **Aki** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:57 pm

Really, thats just low. Breaking trhe law, when there are lawful solutions to such...

not to mention non-lethal ones...

yeesh...

Wolfhanyou · Post by **Wolfhanyou** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:00 pm

Wow. My day just took a turn for the worse. I'm really mad, nearly shaking with the effort not to just jump up and yell out obsanities and the blackest curses I've come to know of. I realize the farmers and ranchers and whoever don't like wolves, because they fear that their livestock would get eaten. That's just fine and dandy, so long as they don't kill the wolf guilty. I agree with the number of ways Jamie had listed that would 'teach' a predator to stay away from live-stock.

As for those who simply go out to hunt for sport.... I say F#@^$ them. Shoot them in the a$$ and see what it feels like. We do need to do something, since it'll be OUR opinion as wolf lovers to help and stop this mess. However, I have basiclly nada experiance with such things, though I'll be doubly glad to give in my opnion.

Shadow Wulf · Post by **Shadow Wulf** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:00 pm

I guess theres something in the book that they imagined saying.
Note:Use of deadly force authorized!

Lupin · Post by **Lupin** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:25 pm

Shadow Wulf wrote:this is real Bull S***!!! I fint people to be the most ignorant thing alive. People dont realize that wolves are in the lower food cgain and makes them more imporatant than us.

What, no. Wolves are apex predators.

Apokryltaros · Post by **Apokryltaros** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:26 pm

Lupin wrote:
Shadow Wulf wrote:this is real Bull S***!!! I fint people to be the most ignorant thing alive. People dont realize that wolves are in the lower food cgain and makes them more imporatant than us.
What, no. Wolves are apex predators.

Apart from eagles, bears, and pumas, of course.

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:30 pm

Apokryltaros wrote:
Lupin wrote:
Shadow Wulf wrote:this is real Bull S***!!! I fint people to be the most ignorant thing alive. People dont realize that wolves are in the lower food cgain and makes them more imporatant than us.
What, no. Wolves are apex predators.
Apart from eagles, bears, and pumas, of course.

The Puma is found in Canada, South America, Central America and Mexico.

No need to worry about Pumas in the U.S. unless one escapes from the zoo.

Apokryltaros · Post by **Apokryltaros** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:35 pm

Figarou wrote:
Apokryltaros wrote:
Lupin wrote: What, no. Wolves are apex predators.
Apart from eagles, bears, and pumas, of course.

The Puma is found in Canada, South America, Central America and Mexico.

No need to worry about Pumas in the U.S. unless one escapes from the zoo.

Or you happen to live in certain parts of California.

Wolfhanyou · Post by **Wolfhanyou** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:42 pm

Apokryltaros wrote:
Figarou wrote:
Apokryltaros wrote:
Lupin wrote: What, no. Wolves are apex predators.
Apart from eagles, bears, and pumas, of course.

The Puma is found in Canada, South America, Central America and Mexico.

No need to worry about Pumas in the U.S. unless one escapes from the zoo.
Or you happen to live in certain parts of California.

*coughs*

Black Shuck · Post by **Black Shuck** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:02 pm

Figarou wrote:
Apokryltaros wrote:
Lupin wrote:
Shadow Wulf wrote:this is real Bull S***!!! I fint people to be the most ignorant thing alive. People dont realize that wolves are in the lower food cgain and makes them more imporatant than us.
What, no. Wolves are apex predators.
Apart from eagles, bears, and pumas, of course.

The Puma is found in Canada, South America, Central America and Mexico.

No need to worry about Pumas in the U.S. unless one escapes from the zoo.

I thought someone got attacked by one in the Rocky Mountains in Colorado a few years back

There's also some in Northern Utah (they kept finding their way into people's yards

)

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:04 pm

Black Shuck wrote: I thought someone got attacked by one in the Rocky Mountains in Colorado a few years back There's also some in Northern Utah (they kept finding their way into people's yards )

Could've been a cougar. Who knows.

Wolfhanyou · Post by **Wolfhanyou** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:04 pm

Black Shuck wrote: I thought someone got attacked by one in the Rocky Mountains in Colorado a few years back There's also some in Northern Utah (they kept finding their way into people's yards )

That's true. There was a large story about a cougar attack in Northern Utah a couple years back.

Teh_DarkJokerWolf · Post by **Teh_DarkJokerWolf** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:53 am

Well I called the USFWS yesterday and I got hung up on three times!!! They were very upset I called there complaining and just about bit my head off.....yeesh

I did however call back a little later and was abole to talk to someone I believe had some sense and she must have been new there because she was upset to hear about that or was either putting on a show anyhow she suggested that I call my local conservancy program here in missouri and that they may have information. I did, but they didn't know anything about the situation so later on today I am going to call the National Wildlife Federation and see if they have any information on this mess also I will call The Yellowstone Park Foundation and see if they can tell me something as well, but I do understand what you are saying OutWardDoddles and I am going to do something because I can't just sit here and do nothing. I am going to do some reasearch and see what else I can find and call around... If any of you know anyway to help or and Organizations that would be willing to help post it here so we can try to help this nonsense......

Shadow Wulf · Post by **Shadow Wulf** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:34 am

I dont know any orginization, but try to do whatever you can to bring justice to wolves.

outwarddoodles · Post by **outwarddoodles** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:12 am

Sabre; I don't know if clling was any use, unless you called with ideas for a solution, telling your disproval is one thing, telling your disproval but with an idea to fix it is another, otherwise they may not know how to fix it themselves any other way.

Someone, come up with a solution, write down ideas that may keep livestock and pets safe. Whether that be certain noise alarms to show up on boundaries where wolves are not needed, or the stated poinsened carcus. Make a very well written E-mail to a couple Accociations and gather up some people that will help or advertise the ideas. Hopefully if you get it going right, we'll have livestock protected, and thus wolves protected. Sabre, you seem to have a schedule of wolves, so you seem like someone good to set someone up. Though I think the letter needs to be perfectly written, we have to reel in the people.

Yet to the others: I'm really surprised on your response to it, and find the obsessive referals to your emotions and opinions isn't going to be good to ssave the wolves, especially when your working with like the government here, and something that needs to fit everyones demands. People having their livestock and pets killed have a say in this, just like we do, we need to look at their problems too. Heck, if a wolf tried to attqck my cats, I'd probally try to attack that thing. If the thing managed to kill one of my cats; Oh I would be out to get that thing, or atleast get it out of my area. (luckily, I keep my cats inside at all times, if I wolf was in our house outright attacking my cats, I would really kill that thing, only a crazy or sick wolf would ever do that.) The thing is here is emotion is opinion, wolves are dangerous is a little on the opinion side, but wolves have attacked livestock and pets.

We're fighting facts here. A wolf may of attacked and killed some livestock, that is fact. A wolf is important to the ecosystem is also a fact. We just need to outweigh their facts with our own. We also need to make wolves attacking cattle untrue, not by lieing and telling people that, but by aking it untrue by protecting cattle. The current solution is killing wolves.

The reason I'm mainly not liking the amount of opinions here is the love for wolves. What about deer? I adore deer, beautiful animals. I don't mind them being killed, why? They have a good population. If we had as muich wolves as deer, I wouldn't mind them being killed. It the loves for wolves getting in the way of better thinking IMHO.

Though currently on this situation; If this does pass its best work more quicker on protecting livestock. So that if a wolf is at all shot, it is from self defense, as I said, if I wolf walked into my house and attacked people, I'd shoot it. There may be cases where shooting a sick or crazed wolf is necessary. Outright hunting wolves when they are not in their backyard is another thing. If people do do this, I think everyhting will work in a pendulum effect. Poeple are starting to shoot wolves, yet if they kill to much, permits will be taken away and heavy conversation will set back in to save the wolves. Though this may keep going bac and forth. I think it always will, its just that the only reason to shoot wolves is if thats the only solution availible, I know theres otherways.

I currently dislike this current situation becuase there are other solutions than this. Create the tolerance!

Black Shuck · Post by **Black Shuck** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:45 am

What I'm most pissed about is that the wolves don't even have to attack anything to get killed. Some rancher just has to go get a permit, regardless of if he took precautions against wolves or not, and gets to go kill one. They side-stepped the law and just went off and did their own thing without asking imput from anyone else. There's already ways to protect livestock that don't involve killing wolves, but they decided to just have them killed anyways. I could understand if a rancher's cow got killed and he took precautions against such things, but when you can just have your cattle roaming around willy-nilly you should expect bad things to happen.

Sabre- In the immortal words of Cold Mountain: "If you need help, here I am!"

I'll be camping this weekend though, but I'll be back Sunday

outwarddoodles · Post by **outwarddoodles** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:54 pm

, but when you can just have your cattle roaming around willy-nilly you should expect bad things to happen.

Acutally no, people should be able to have livestock and pets run around without the fear that something may attack them. Though I still think people should take precautions, being house pets are most vulnerable people need to keep them indoors. I don't know how high wolves jump though yet I think electric fencing would do good for cattle.

Infact, I think people are trying out doing a sorta of invisable fence thing as for dogs but for the wolves when they put callors on them.

Lupin · Post by **Lupin** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:33 pm

outwarddoodles wrote:Acutally no, people should be able to have livestock and pets run around without the fear that something may attack them.

That's really unrealistic. If you're going to let something roam around in an area like this, you should also expect it to be predated. Nature has been working this way since time began. We shouldn't exepect it to change just because we want it to.

outwarddoodles · Post by **outwarddoodles** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:51 pm

Lupin wrote:
outwarddoodles wrote:Acutally no, people should be able to have livestock and pets run around without the fear that something may attack them.
That's really unrealistic. If you're going to let something roam around in an area like this, you should also expect it to be predated. Nature has been working this way since time began. We shouldn't exepect it to change just because we want it to.

Yes, but you shouldn't expect that poeple are going to accept that.

Shadow Wulf · Post by **Shadow Wulf** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:07 pm

well they have to change, people need to suffer cause everyone in this nation is way to spoiled.

Set · Post by **Set** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:21 pm

This "Oh, wolves are evil cuz they ate my dog/cow/little sister/whatever" thing is rediculous. These things happen, not because wolves are trying to be malicious and spiteful to the human race but because they're trying to survive. Alot of it comes out of sheer human stupidity.

It's not at all hard to protect livestock. A farmer that loses a cow or a chicken or a sheep or whatever most likely did absolutely nothing to prevent it from happening. My grandparents had cattle, their neighbor has cattle, my mom knows someone who raises longhorns... I should know all about livestock. Really it often doesn't take any more than common sense and a good fence to keep from losing a cow. It's neither difficult nor expensive.

A farmer is alot more likely to lose livestock from a feral dog than from a wolf, but no one goes around shooting stray dogs for the reason of "well it could kill my sheep". Hell, if it was a large dog it could be mistaken for a wolf attack if only the tracks were found or if it was very dark outside. The occasional lost cow is bound to be there, not always from predator attacks. Monetary compensation more than covers the cost of the animal anyway. I think it comes more from a hatred of wolves than anything else.

outwarddoodles · Post by **outwarddoodles** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:46 pm

It's not at all hard to protect livestock. A farmer that loses a cow or a chicken or a sheep or whatever most likely did absolutely nothing to prevent it from happening. My grandparents had cattle, their neighbor has cattle, my mom knows someone who raises longhorns... I should know all about livestock. Really it often doesn't take any more than common sense and a good fence to keep from losing a cow. It's neither difficult nor expensive.

I've already mentioned this several times in this thread. We can't expect others to smarten up and protect their livestock, it is as simple as putting up a nice fence. Just cheap barbed wire could do, if a wolf attacks it'll get stuck in the fence, though that stil sucks, its better than giving people permits. If others won't be smart, we'll be the smart ones and state that people need to put up a fence and maybe get a dog. Others arn't going to do the things we want.

Renorei · Post by **Renorei** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:33 pm

Electric fences worked wonders for protecting our watermelon garden from vermin. Putting an electric fence around livestock would be a great way to get wolves to never go there again. (Of course, the livestock wouldn't be too happy about it, at first.)

To serious wolf lovers:

The number is 54 or 53, right? Are you of the opinion that this amount will seriously endanger the wolves? (After all, aren't there about 3,700 left?)
I'm not saying I'm in favor of killing them, I just wanna know your thoughts.

Teh_DarkJokerWolf · Post by **Teh_DarkJokerWolf** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:33 pm

Listen Outwardoodles

I just want you to know that I did indeed call there with respect and with good reasoning and they started yelling at me first!! I never once raise my voice and I was hung up on!! I believe I ask a reasonable question and here is what I asked and I quote:

Hi!! I was wondering about a internet site that stated that wolves were being killed through a premit provided through your services and I was wondering if that was fact or fiction?

After I asked that, that was it!!! I simply called back a few more times in hope of getting throught to somebody and I did, but I still got nowhere, so that is why I will personally be taking certain steps to atempt to make a change in this ridculouis.....situation....I will be calling The Yellowstone National Foundation to see if they have any advice for any of us and I'll get back with you all on this when I find out something more.....I was unable to reach them today, but I have other resources that can help...

Anubis · Post by **Anubis** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:37 pm

gess I HATE THE GOVERMENT! they don't know the hell what they are doing!