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Hmm. Is there any particular reason that you can't do that? Or do we just not know how? Someone posted a link to something called an N-Machine which, if real, appears to pull energy out of thin air; I think, perhaps this demonstrates (even if it's false) how unpredictable technological leaps are. I'm starting to lean towards the 'It just happens, we have no idea how' thing as it's clear that even if we could think up an explanation, within 5 years there'd be actual working equipment that'd do a similar thing in a different way more effectively.

Ralith Lupus wrote:Hmm. Is there any particular reason that you can't do that? Or do we just not know how?

It has to do with the Quantum Mechanics (Specifically, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.) You can violate the first law of thermodynamics as long as you do it fast enough that it can't be noticed.


http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae605.cfm

<bleches and looks over his 300 kilo human belly to the pile of pizza boxes and empty cans of sugary soft drink on the floor>

Want to know where we get the energy.. We stuff ourselves with bad food for a whole month.. Pure couch potatoes..

Junk food, Big Mac's Super Upsizing the whole time.

And then just before we keel over with a coronary - the full moon comes and for 3 nights we are fit, lean, furry and teriffic.

And then on the fourth nigth night we are back to our 65 kilo weak state and have to start pigging out all over again.

Fat.. you calling me Fat.. Nah.. Its just a power-plant for a Werewolf Transformation


Well folks.. You asked!!

Hehe. Perhaps given an efficient energy storage mechanism, you'd just have a simple huge hunger before the first shift, with any that follow greatly eased.

Of course, if you're doing quantum-based shapeshifting, you don't have to be painful, or even neccessarily do the growing and shifting with teeth erupting through a growing muzzle. You can blink or glow energy.

Scott Gardener wrote:Of course, if you're doing quantum-based shapeshifting, you don't have to be painful, or even neccessarily do the growing and shifting with teeth erupting through a growing muzzle. You can blink or glow energy.

Need I remind you of the horrifyingly horrific consequences that await those who create "*poof* I'm a werewolf!" scenarios who fall into my clutches?

I also think that as unlikely as shifting is in the first place, having it be by a biological mechanism, however odd, is much more likely than something odd like a quantum system. For one thing, how would one interface a quantum system to the brain so that it could be voluntarily controlled?

Ralith Lupus wrote:I also think that as unlikely as shifting is in the first place, having it be by a biological mechanism, however odd, is much more likely than something odd like a quantum system. For one thing, how would one interface a quantum system to the brain so that it could be voluntarily controlled?

Magic, duh.

Oh, right. Silly me.

*snrk*

Even for a paranormal/supernatural effect, there ought to be at least some biological component, the natural-world "shadow" of what is going on. Since the whole changing-shape thing is physiologically implausible to begin with, there has to be something "more" going on than simple biology, but what exactly that is should be left somewhat mysterious. Scientists and doctors would be baffled, of course, but what self-respecting werewolf would let scientists and doctors catch them for experimentation?

well, i still think that my idea of a transferrable werewolf gene is a feasable process. basically, the idea sprung from werewolve's longtime existance alongside humankind. werewolves are basically defined by a gene set added to human cells. it replicates throughout the body similarly to a virus, so the two are easily mistakeable, but instead of changing DNA by replacing DNA molecules, it adds a whole new sequence, a whole gene's worth (which is QUITE a lot of sequencing i might add). the gene allows for the change of form between human and wolf and reasonable control over the process as well. the gene is activated by a specific stimulus, i.e. the full moon, and takes action in the body.
all of this is pretty feasable in RL, as gene-therapy, changes/morphs in physical shape, and naturally-occuring transferrance of DNA really exist.
origionally, i said this:

celtwolf wrote:i think a good origin idea is that werewolves sort of evolved alongside humans and have a gene that allows them to shift forms between that of a man and that of a wolf. the gene theory is possible, as there are animals in existance that change forms, albeit probably not at will (ex: caterpillar/butterfly, maggot/fly, and here's an interesting one grasshopper/locust). and it could be feasable that the gene could be transferred to others. we're actually experimenting on gene therapy right now, so isn't it possible that nature could have evolved a working system on it's own? and it could be mistaken for a virus as it actually DOES change DNA by adding to it!

what do you guys think?

I was under the impression that a gene was a very small piece of information. Perhaps Lone_Wolf can clear this up?

Also, I don't think the full moon is a specific stimulus; it doesn't have a clearly defineable effect upon the body, if any at all.

Rapid shifting of shape in the manner of a werewolf does not exist in nature. I'm not saying it's not possible; just that there's nothing to go on here. My personal belief is that it's rather infeasable, if not outright impossible, unless there's some mechanism that could be created to manage it that I'm not aware of, but that's just that. An opinion.

Most of the rest, however, makes sense. A virus probably wouldn't technically be the right word for it, but it provides an adequate description that gets the point across.

One thing that I have a problem with in the whole evolution idea: Shapeshifters? Sure, maybe it could happen. Perhaps even human shapeshifters. But something that shifts from the shape of one creature to another? There's no way I can think of for that to work. I could understand shifting to something completely different that doesn't exist outside of shapeshifting, but a form that's even very similar to an existing static form is relying far too much on coincidence.

Actually, I just thought of something. What if both humans and wolves were derived from werewolves; basically, just werewolves who, for some reason or other, either forgot or lost their ability to shift. One got stuck on one side, and the other on the other. That actually makes sense.

interesting idea, but then where would that leave the bitten werewolves?

anyway, i'm not all that skilled at communicating my ideas. at best i get the general idea across, sorry.

and werewolves aren't particularly logical to begin with you know, particularly as they don't actually exist! my point was that there ARE physical changes as differentiating as man to wolf and vice-versa. and, whilst i can't really think of an animal that can change in a matter of minutes off the top of my head, the closest thing i can come up with is the shift between a fruit-flies larval and adult stages, which takes about an hour.
and there are stranger things in the world than a stimlus making a gene awaken/react. i chose that the stimulus be a full moon, as that would fit the profile of a werewolf best. though, i suppose that could be changed to the stimulus of large amounts of adrenaline stimulating the gene. that would explain the whole rage-induced-change thingie.
and you were right, i looked it up. a gene IS a small piece of information. a CHROMOSOME is what i meant. it was my mistake. and honestly, since there's so much coding in a chromosome, though it could EASILY contain enough information to do what i was describing, would be significantly more difficult to transfer.

celtwolf wrote:interesting idea, but then where would that leave the bitten werewolves?

Well perhaps then the virus really is a virus, and in the process of replication it (directly or indirectly) switches on the genes needed for shifting. (And just to deepen the mystery the genes necessary are in the 'Junk DNA' that we all have.)

Then the question is, why do all werewolves have that virus? DO all werewolves have that virus?

Ralith Lupus wrote:Then the question is, why do all werewolves have that virus? DO all werewolves have that virus?

The the bitten ones would have it, some born werewolves might have it, depending on how else it's spread. It might be that becoming a werewolf by being bitten isn't a sure-fire thing.

We're relying on coincidence an awful lot with this virus. Why should it exist at all, let alone be common among werewolves?

Ok... If it was a virus that created werewolves..... who bit the first werewolves who've been passing the virus?

Ralith Lupus wrote:We're relying on coincidence an awful lot with this virus. Why should it exist at all, let alone be common among werewolves?

Well that's like asking "Why does the common cold exist at all?" The point of the virus isn't to turn people into werewolves, that's just an unintended side effect, all the virus 'wants' to do is replicate. And it's common among werewolves because those who catch it turn into werewolves.

Greylan wrote:Ok... If it was a virus that created werewolves..... who bit the first werewolves who've been passing the virus?

In this situation there wouldn't have to be anyone who bit the first werewolf. All it would have to be is something else that mutated to cause this side effect.

Lupin wrote:

Greylan wrote:Ok... If it was a virus that created werewolves..... who bit the first werewolves who've been passing the virus?

In this situation there wouldn't have to be anyone who bit the first werewolf. All it would have to be is something else that mutated to cause this side effect.

Which came 1st? The [s]chicken[/s] werewolf? Or the [s]egg[/s] Virus?

Clarifying some terms:

A gene is a sequence of DNA that codes for something, usually a protein that does stuff in the body. Genes consist of the DNA that codes for the protein, as well as other sequences of DNA in front of it and behind it that regulate when the gene is activated (i.e. read and copied into messenger RNA that in turn gets made into the active protein) or when it should be left turned off. Except for genes on X and Y chromosomes in men, all humans, wolves, and indeed nearly all animals, plants, and other eukaryotic life forms (those organized into cells with nuclei), a particular being generally has two copies of every gene. One comes from each parent.

Genes are organized onto chromosomes. Each chromosome is an extremely long stand of DNA that has thousands of genes, along with variou support and structural proteins to help keep it together and organized. (Yes, genes coded for these proteins; chromosomes do make and duplicate themselves.)

Humans have 46 chromosomes, consisting of 22 pairs of different sized ones, plus either two "X" chromosomes (in women) or one "X" and one "Y" chromosome (in men). The X chromosome has a lot of genes on it, most of which have little to do with gender. (Things like the cones and rods that keep normal humans from having red-green color vision.) The "Y" chromosome appears to have only two genes on it, and a lot of filler. (Women will, no doubt. find this fact quite amusing.) Those genes specifically cause a developing embryo to become a male. Without those genes giving those instructions, the person becomes a female. (This has caused some people to put forth the idea that "we're all born female.") The Y chromosome, not surprisingly, is small, but still very large, given that it seems to have only a tiny portion of working information.

Wolves have 78 chromosomes--34 pairs plus two X'es or an X and a Y, again based on gender. (Again, XX for female, XY for male, like nearly all animals.) That's a lot of information--too much to replicate with ONE gene.

But, the above information is a bit misleading about the total quantity of DNA needed. The 78 chromosomes of a wolf does not neccessarily mean that wolves are more complicated than 46 chromosome humans. The information is simply arranged differently. Indeed, they are 92.5% identical. So, to code for the difference, you only need 7.5% of 78 chromosomes, which comes to either six or eight, since you have to get them in pairs.

Furthermore, chromosomes are about 90% filler, as far as we can tell. (It may be tempting to say that that filler is where werewolf genes have been hiding, but in order for them not to have turned up as genes in the human genome project, they would had to have been so heavily randomized and mixed as to be eradicated.) Thus, a single pair of chromosomes could conceivably carry all you need to describe a wolf, if you've already got the human genome as a general reference. (Note that for virus concepts that involve taking real wolf DNA out of wolves, it would have to be a collossal engineering project to make a virus smart enough to know how to pick and choose which genes to copy and paste. If werewolves evolved naturally without some elaborate plot device like aliens doing genetic engineering experiments, you could finally make a scientifically valid case for "intelligent design.")

But, if you completely replaced all my cells with wolf cell nuclei, I would still look and act human, and wouldn't shapeshift, because the proteins have already built a human body. DNA describing a wolf isn't enough. You would also need a lot of genes to describe how to become one. The process of shapeshifting, very likely, would require at least as much information, probably more, than the end organism.

Finally, a virus is a self-replicating cluster of genes that inserts itself into a host cell, copies itself, and causes that cell to make a simple protein transportation case for the gene cluster, so that it can be exported and inserted into other cells. Some scientists consider them the simplest life forms, while others do not consider them living, because they lack their own internal metabolic activity. It has been the general consensus here that a lycanthrope "virus" would not technically be a virus per se, but that the term would get erroneously applied to it, because its behavior, as an intracellular parasite that adds portions of itself to host DNA to replicate itself and infect a host organism, is just like a virus. I agree with this consensus, and this has been the case in my own world setting.

Scott Gardener wrote: But, if you completely replaced all my cells with wolf cell nuclei, I would still look and act human, and wouldn't shapeshift, because the proteins have already built a human body. DNA describing a wolf isn't enough. You would also need a lot of genes to describe how to become one. The process of shapeshifting, very likely, would require at least as much information, probably more, than the end organism.

Actually you'd probably die. It would be like ripping a car's engine and trasmission out and replacing it with a truck's while going down the highway at 60MPH, and trying not to crash.

Lupin wrote:

Scott Gardener wrote: But, if you completely replaced all my cells with wolf cell nuclei, I would still look and act human, and wouldn't shapeshift, because the proteins have already built a human body. DNA describing a wolf isn't enough. You would also need a lot of genes to describe how to become one. The process of shapeshifting, very likely, would require at least as much information, probably more, than the end organism.

Actually you'd probably die. It would be like ripping a car's engine and trasmission out and replacing it with a truck's while going down the highway at 60MPH, and trying not to crash.

Odd way of putting it, Lupin.

Now what type of "truck" are you talking about? A pickup truck? Or an 18 wheeler?

If you're reffering to an 18 wheeler, the engine and transmission wouldn't fit in the 1st place.

Figarou wrote:Odd way of putting it, Lupin.

Now what type of "truck" are you talking about? A pickup truck? Or an 18 wheeler?

If you're reffering to an 18 wheeler, the engine and transmission wouldn't fit in the 1st place.

Exactly.

So how would one go about adding or replacing the genetics in such a way that didn't disrupt the functioning of the body? Perhaps the spread of the "virus" through the body would be rapid, as would its actions, then leaving the body in a human-shifted state? Do it quickly enough, and a crash would probably be avoided; the car might skid and swerve a bit, the body might show various odd symptoms of varying degrees of severity, but before a collision could occur the rest of the stuff would be in place, and the engine and transmission would fit into the freshly modified body.

This leaves, of course, the question of the driver's reaction, which is what so many werewolf stories are based on.