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it doesn't matter if these people succeed, males will be extinct soon.

Yeah, but by the time males are extinct, we'll have perfected reproductive cloning so much that you won't even be necesssary.

How could one gender but not the other become extinct? ...I'm confused...

WTF are you talking about?



Anyway...as far as I'm concerned, Humans are a Natural, native species of Mother Earth, just the same as any other creature, and therefore have and EQUAL right to live on as the rest.

...EQUAL...no less...no GREATER...

I think that is the problem...that we are carrying on as if we have a greater claim to this place than the rest of the wildlife on the planet. ...and take all the land and resources WE need to support our outragious population, regardless of what it does to everything else. Obviously, though we are doing things to counteract this, it a joke to think it is even CLOSE to enough.


I support the survival of our species...but not in it's current state.

I agree with others statements that we should stay as a much smaller, less intrusive population. We should back off our numbers enough so that there is room for EVERYTHING again, as there once was.


One of the biggest roadblocks to achieving this, however, is that our species is totally %^$ed - Up. Like Domesticated Dogs and Cats, we have over-used our medicinal knowlage by defying the laws of nature and allowing the weak to survive. I know it is an evil thought, but because we allow the sick, weak, and natrually defective to live and breed, our gene base has lost most of it's strength, and the natural laws which normally keep instincts and biological funtions in order and under controll have been scrambled randomly, rather than being determinded by the strongest and healthiest guiding the fate of our species.


Like the animals we have domesticated to live in our Alternative-World, our breeding cycles are no longer guided by seasons, but instead, it is set to "SUPER HORNEY" 24/7/365. ...which leads many to being so enslaved by their "BROKEN" instincts as to lack the ability to resist thier impulse to breed...and breed and breed...even if they know better.


...and Genetic diseases continue to become more and more common, in spite of cures becomming better and better, and survival rates slowly increasing. ...temporarily...

In time, EVERYONE will be born with Life-Threatening Birth Defects and Genetic diseases...so that NO ONE will be able to survive without our precious Modern Medicine.



Long story short...I think Humanity deserves to Live...but we need to "FIX" ourselves first...which will require SEVERE sacrifices...


...which, sadly, is probobly why it won't happen anytime soon, or likely untill we have nearly driven ourselves to extinction anyway...and by then we may be so genetically "Broken" that it may be too late.


I honestly don't know what to do...but voluntary Extinction is NOT the answer.
(Especially since there would surely be survivors anyway...and they would be composed of a high concentration of people who honestly "Don't give a *&^%", who would just start the whole BAD HUMAN cycle all over again, in the absence of those who Cared enough to die for thier planet.)

What Darum is referring to is the shrinking of the Y chromosome. Most scientists believe that the Y chromosome was once very large, as large as the X chromosome. But now, it has gotten very small compared to all other chromosomes, and is believed to be getting smaller. Though personally, I don't think that this will necessarily mean that males will ever go extinct because of this. I don't think it will ever disappear entirely. But, either way, it could continue to deteriorate over time. I'm not sure what the results of this would be. My first thought is that it would result in more effiminate males, but I doubt that would actually happen.

IF human males ever do go 'extinct', it will likely be because cloning and genetic engineering takes the place of traditional conception as the primary means of production. Once we have successfully cloned a human, human males will officially no longer be necessary for the maintenance of the human population. However, even then, I still doubt that human males will cease to exist in the population, because women will still want to keep them around.

Also, I agree with you about 'cleaning up' our species. I hate to say it, but humanity really needs to start letting the weak die. Alternatively, if genetic engineering does become commonplace, we could simply eradicate all the defects that cause certain members of humanity to be weak.

Honestly, I think human cloning and genetic engineering are really going to have a significant impact on humanity. I can't wait.

Ahem... http://www.exitmundi.nl/exitmundi.htm (It would be under "giggle".)

Renorei wrote:Though personally, I don't think that this will necessarily mean that males will ever go extinct because of this. I don't think it will ever disappear entirely.

It's possible. There's one species in which this has already happened. A lizard, though I can't for the life of me remember the name of it. They reproduce by naturally cloning themselves. Each of the offspring is an exact copy of her mother. However, in order for her to bear young, another female has to climb on top of her and mimic mating with her. The act triggers something in her body that says "make babies". And she does. Clone babies.

Renorei wrote:Yeah, but by the time males are extinct, we'll have perfected reproductive cloning so much that you won't even be necesssary.

By that time though, advances in the medical field will be so that both sexes will be unneccessary.

Chew on that for a bit.

Lupin wrote:

Renorei wrote:Yeah, but by the time males are extinct, we'll have perfected reproductive cloning so much that you won't even be necesssary.

By that time though, advances in the medical field will be so that both sexes will be unneccessary.

Chew on that for a bit.

Don't chew to long. Or you won't be able to blow bubbles.

Set wrote:Ahem... http://www.exitmundi.nl/exitmundi.htm (It would be under "giggle".)

Renorei wrote:Though personally, I don't think that this will necessarily mean that males will ever go extinct because of this. I don't think it will ever disappear entirely.

It's possible. There's one species in which this has already happened. A lizard, though I can't for the life of me remember the name of it. They reproduce by naturally cloning themselves. Each of the offspring is an exact copy of her mother. However, in order for her to bear young, another female has to climb on top of her and mimic mating with her. The act triggers something in her body that says "make babies". And she does. Clone babies.

This is from wikipedia:

Lizards

Whip-tailed lizard females have the ability to reproduce through parthenogenesis and as such males are rare and sexual breeding non-standard. Females engage in sexual behavior to stimulate ovulation, with their behavior following their hormonal cycles; during low levels of estrogen, these (female) lizards engage in "masculine" sexual roles. Those animals with currently high estrogen levels assume "feminine" sexual roles.

Lizards that perform the courtship ritual have greater fecundity than those kept in isolation due to an increase in hormones triggered by the sexual behaviors. So, even though asexual whiptail lizards populations lack males, sexual stimuli still increase reproductive success.

From an evolutionary standpoint these females are passing their full genetic code to all of their offspring rather than the 50% of genes that would be passed in sexual reproduction. Certain species of gecko also reproduce by parthenogenesis.

But despite all that, I still doubt that human males will ever disappear entirely...though it's certainly plausible that something like this could happen naturally, scientists would likely intervene.

Renorei wrote:

But despite all that, I still doubt that human males will ever disappear entirely...though it's certainly plausible that something like this could happen naturally, scientists would likely intervene.

I don't think this can happen to humans.

But its something to think about.

(See the link below.)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6436617/



Can eating that type of fish affect the human in any way?

I don't think it can. But I'll be suprised if its possible.

I don't think that eating the fish will have much of an affect at all, but that article does make me worry about the water.

Renorei wrote: Alternatively, if genetic engineering does become commonplace, we could simply eradicate all the defects that cause certain members of humanity to be weak.

Honestly, I think human cloning and genetic engineering are really going to have a significant impact on humanity. I can't wait.

I was actually thinking about that, but forgot to mention it.


That would certainly become an option B: , should our technology ever reach that level.

If we REFUSE to let nature weed out the weak, and let evolution take its course naturally, then we must Rebuild OURSELVES into a stronger, more stable species Artificially.

...but I think we are still several hundred years away from being able to re-write our own genetics that way...if it is even within our capacity at all.

Renorei wrote:Yeah, but by the time males are extinct, we'll have perfected reproductive cloning so much that you won't even be necesssary.

a sad day for humanity, that will be. cloning would be a good alternative, i guess, but then again, women could always splice (SP?) the reporductive genes from the Whip-tailed lizard into their own! heheh... too bad i wouldn't be around to see it, though.

Anyone ever seen Gattaca?

In this movie, children are genetically engineered by choosing an outstanding egg and an outstanding sperm...so it's still a product of the parents, it's just 'the best' of the parents. I think something like this will become available within our lifetimes.

The shrinking Y chromosome:

Just because it's gotten smaller doesn't mean it's going to disappear altogether. As Mark Twain pointed out, given the rate at which the Mississippi river was getting shorter (by losing bends and becoming straighter), and the rate at which the delta was growing, it would by 2025 be less than 50 miles long, with a delta twice the size of the continental U.S. Obviously, since his time, the forces that were causing it to shrink and its delta to grow have stopped. (Indeed, land development and then Hurricane Katrina have eroded a lot of that delta, and experts today are now projecting its disappearance.)

We've found only two genes on the Y chromosome, both involved in telling the body to become a man instead of a woman. The rest of it, much to the amusement of the women among the scientists of the human genome project, I'm sure, appears to be inert filler. There's a lot more chromosome we guys can lose.

Genetic engineering:

Everyone assumes it's going to be used for evil purposes, or its use will somehow demean people conceived and born the natural method.

I'm counting on genetic engineering, myself. If used responsibly, it's a great fix for a lot of contemporary problems. You can solve problems like genetically inherited disorders, without resorting to fascist rules about who should or shouldn't be allowed to reproduce. (Note that I say responsibly, and that means counting being black or Hispanic as an interesting normal set of DNA and not a genetic disorder!)

Many of you here should join me on my pro-engineering stance, because support for genetic engineering is one of the neccessary steps to make real-life shapeshifters or wolf anthropomorphs possible. Let's face it. You're probably not going to see a lycanthrope virus in your lifetime if people are still convinced 30 or 40 years from now that God thinks its a bad idea.

Yes, genetic engineering can go wrong. And, it can go horribly wrong. But, humans as-is have already demonstrated a great capability of screwing other things up. If we can fix ourselves, then maybe we can as a species be some day as mature and evolved as we like to think we are.

As for those who think genetic engineering is against God, I don't wanna talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! These are the same people who think humans as-is are created "in God's image." If that were the case, then shouldn't we be somehow given some great, divine destiny to re-engineer ourselves? Come on? Where's that smug, Dominionistic arrogance when given the slightest mention of anything beyond bullying small animals?

Scott Gardener wrote: As for those who think genetic engineering is against God, I don't wanna talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper!

I'd like to talk to them about bananas, and corn, and seedless watermelon, and a bunch of other stuff that they probably eat all the time, but never think about.

I guess I’m going to add my opinion to this already controversial thread. I don’t think voluntary extinction can in any way be an answer to our problems. I mean if all the people who care about nature were to stop breeding well obviously in one or two generations all that will be left is the offspring of those who don’t. It is the natural instinct of every living being to want to produce offspring that will carry on its line and I have a few choice words for anybody who is going to tell me that not having children is the best I can do for nature.

I don’t think the solution lies in scientific advancement either. Why well every single major scientific breakthrough has been misused and somehow I don’t think that is about to change. The more advanced science is becoming the more dependent we are becoming on it for survival. Now I don’t think that’s a good thing. I’ve also noticed a certain tendency of the advancement of science going hand in hand with the destruction of nature. Again I'd like to believe that this can change but I very much doubt that it will.

Scott Gardener wrote:The shrinking Y chromosome:


Genetic engineering:

Everyone assumes it's going to be used for evil purposes, or its use will somehow demean people conceived and born the natural method.

I'm counting on genetic engineering, myself. If used responsibly, it's a great fix for a lot of contemporary problems. You can solve problems like genetically inherited disorders, without resorting to fascist rules about who should or shouldn't be allowed to reproduce. (Note that I say responsibly, and that means counting being black or Hispanic as an interesting normal set of DNA and not a genetic disorder!)

Many of you here should join me on my pro-engineering stance, because support for genetic engineering is one of the neccessary steps to make real-life shapeshifters or wolf anthropomorphs possible. Let's face it. You're probably not going to see a lycanthrope virus in your lifetime if people are still convinced 30 or 40 years from now that God thinks its a bad idea.

Yes, genetic engineering can go wrong. And, it can go horribly wrong. But, humans as-is have already demonstrated a great capability of screwing other things up. If we can fix ourselves, then maybe we can as a species be some day as mature and evolved as we like to think we are.

As for those who think genetic engineering is against God, I don't wanna talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! These are the same people who think humans as-is are created "in God's image." If that were the case, then shouldn't we be somehow given some great, divine destiny to re-engineer ourselves? Come on? Where's that smug, Dominionistic arrogance when given the slightest mention of anything beyond bullying small animals?

Its a double edged sword really. Medicine is one of the biggest causes of overpopulation today. Genetics that should have died out have lived on and spread because of medicine. Genetic engineering can help repair that dammage but the point still remains that there are just too many people. Sure, limit children to 1 per family, how the hell is that going to help? We are already massively overpopulating the plannet. The only thing that could help is some people having NO childern but that goes against every instinct we have. We have ruined the earth and destroyed natures ballance. People should be allowed to die of their illnesses, thats the only way to get back on track but it will never happen because we are ALL hypocrits. If I had a child dying from a disease that could be cured I would do my best to make sure my child gets the cure.

Wars help population controll to an extent but with the weapons at our disposal today the benifit of population controll is imediately negated by the dammage said weapons do to nature forcing the remaining population closer together. A few 3rd world wars have benifitted the afflicted countries. Genocide and mass wipeouts make life better in the long run for those who remain and it also draws people together for a common cause. Problem is, ITS JUST NOT RIGHT according to human rights activists.

Don't even get me started on human rights! The biggest croc of s*** to ever be thought up. You kill, you should be killed, break the law and you should be punnished. I know of a case where a beggar killed a man just to go to jail and live better because the death penalty was not observed in his state. Things die, its the way of things. Call me heartless and cruel but noone ever said nature was kind. I believe that nature has consiousness of sorts, how else can you explain all the disasters of late? Anyone notice how many hugely overpopulated areas have been aflicted with hurricanes, earthquakes and the like? Nature is trying to restore the ballance.

Before people say I am contradicting myself be aware of this, life is a contradiction. We are all born with instincts and as we grow society changes our way of thought till those instincts become surpressed. Those instincts are natural but nature takes a back seat to science.

There is no cure for the disease that is human kind. The world is doomed and there is nothing we can do to stop it. Nature may find the solution we cannot but who can say.

Sorry about the depressing post but its how I feel.

Xaltar wrote:Things die, its the way of things. Call me heartless and cruel but noone ever said nature was kind.

Indeed. Nature is anything but kind. It kills off the weak and unnecessary, just as the dragon that chews on the world tree tears away the dead branches. It has to happen, because that's the only way for things to improve. A population does not benefit from the sick staying alive. It does not benefit from the weak passing on their genes. Nature is cruel, because it wants its children to be healthy.

Xaltar wrote:I believe that nature has consiousness of sorts, how else can you explain all the disasters of late? Anyone notice how many hugely overpopulated areas have been aflicted with hurricanes, earthquakes and the like? Nature is trying to restore the ballance.

So I'm not the only one who noticed. FYI, this year's hurricane season is going to be worse than last year. *waves bye to New York city* You're surrounded by water like New Orleans, you're not immune.

Xaltar wrote:There is no cure for the disease that is human kind. The world is doomed and there is nothing we can do to stop it. Nature may find the solution we cannot but who can say.

I wouldn't say it's totally hopeless. Mankind could change it themselves, if only they'd put aside their petty bickering, get up off their lazy asses, agree and do something. Problem is with the way people are...that will never happen.

Scott Gardener wrote:We've found only two genes on the Y chromosome, both involved in telling the body to become a man instead of a woman. The rest of it, much to the amusement of the women among the scientists of the human genome project, I'm sure, appears to be inert filler. There's a lot more chromosome we guys can lose.

According to some article I read, they figure it would just jump to another chromosome anyway. Primates already use a different sex determining gene than other mammals, and IIRC, birds use a third one.

Xaltar wrote:Its a double edged sword really. Medicine is one of the biggest causes of overpopulation today. Genetics that should have died out have lived on and spread because of medicine. Genetic engineering can help repair that dammage but the point still remains that there are just too many people. Sure, limit children to 1 per family, how the hell is that going to help?

See various parts of Europe. If the birth rate is under the replacement rate, the population decreases. The US is right at the replacement rate, but our population increases do to immigration.

Who are neccesary to do the dirty work... hmm quite a kanundrum...

Life, death,
All in sequence
We begin pure
Become corrupt
End wisened
Too late to save the world.

by: a very bored me