THE PACK Message Boards

Shadowblaze wrote:Back on track, people. So, in the movie, do you want howls to be actual messages to people?

I think we all agree that howls are messages whether long or short. I think we should also include that some howls are emotional as well portraying anger, sadness ect...as well. A message and an emotion could also go hand in hand as well, when a werewolf dies his pack mates may howl in mourning.

Blade-of-the-Moon wrote:

Shadowblaze wrote:Back on track, people. So, in the movie, do you want howls to be actual messages to people?

I think we all agree that howls are messages whether long or short. I think we should also include that some howls are emotional as well portraying anger, sadness ect...as well. A message and an emotion could also go hand in hand as well, when a werewolf dies his pack mates may howl in mourning.

when a werewolf dies his pack mates may howl in mourning.

When that happens, it won't be in sync when they are all together in mourning. Each werewolf will give his/her own howl. Am I correct?

Yeah. Hopefully this will be shown in the movie. You don't actually need to have a message in a howl; have the listener look like s/he understands.

Wolves howl in discordant harmonies. If a wolf joins in in a concordant part with another wolf one will slide into a discord. That maintains the individuality of the parts.

Wolves' major form of communication is empathy - they sense each other's "internal atmosphere" by gestures and other body language, scents, tactile impressions, tastes when they lick each other, the heat pattern coming from their bodies, etc. A howl is distance empathy. The sound of the howl and the subtle harmonics that it carries broadcasts a wealth of information about the howler.

WolfVanZandt wrote:Wolves howl in discordant harmonies. If a wolf joins in in a concordant part with another wolf one will slide into a discord. That maintains the individuality of the parts.

Wolves' major form of communication is empathy - they sense each other's "internal atmosphere" by gestures and other body language, scents, tactile impressions, tastes when they lick each other, the heat pattern coming from their bodies, etc. A howl is distance empathy. The sound of the howl and the subtle harmonics that it carries broadcasts a wealth of information about the howler.

In other words, howling works well as communication.

For what's important to wolves to "phone home" about, yes. But for detailed (technical) information, they need to be close enough to see or smell each other.

A howl could communicate "I'm on (this particular) ridge and I'm moving away from you but I'm alright and I'll be back before the hunt tomorrow. Stay together until i get back. I've scented something important." But it could not convey, "I'm tracking a 250 pound lame moose and I want to make sure of where it's going before I come back so we can take up the trail tomorrow."

What about morse howling?

Indeed. Whattaya think barking is?

If you are out in the woods, and hear a bunch of wolves howl, howl back. There wil be a pause, then they'll start howling back. You can carry on all night. You can also sit in the woods and hear two sets of wolves howl at each other. The howls change in pitch, intensity, etc.

My guess is that they are doing what whales do. And we're not sure excatly why they do it either.

We know that dogs will howl when they are sad. When my dog was a puppy, he would howl for a while every morning when I went to work. My neighbor made sure I knew. When we got him a friend, the howling stopped. So I'm assuming that he was sad.

We now know that cas, elephans, monkeys, and other animals paint. This would indicate that animals sometime do things just for the joy if it, as we do.

My guess is that, like our own verbal communication, howling serves several purposes. I would think that hoowling was expression....emotion, commuity, communication.

The question for me would then be how would werewolves use howling. I think the same, just more complex. How does that work with you guys? [/code]

heh. That doesn't necessarily work with coyotes.

There are coyotes all ver the place in Alabama. During a howl, there were a pack of coyotes cutting up in the distance and I walked away from the campfire and howled. They didn't make a peep again all night.

Another year, I was out at the local boy scout camp watching meteors alone in the dead of night and listeng to the coyotes. Same thing happened. A Werewcoyote told me I sound too much like a wolf. And they didn't have the same problem with her.

WolfVanZandt wrote:heh. That doesn't necessarily work with coyotes.

There are coyotes all ver the place in Alabama. During a howl, there were a pack of coyotes cutting up in the distance and I walked away from the campfire and howled. They didn't make a peep again all night.

Another year, I was out at the local boy scout camp watching meteors alone in the dead of night and listeng to the coyotes. Same thing happened. A Werewcoyote told me I sound too much like a wolf. And they didn't have the same problem with her.

Well, I can tell you this about coyotes. They are smaller than the wolf. If they stopped howling because of your howl, thats because you was showing dominance.

Coyotes can be tricked from other sounds you make. If you made a sound of a "screaming rabbit," it will come out running towards your direction. But if a coyote realizes it's been tricked by a call, that coyote will never again respond to that call.

Heh. Luckily for coyotes, I've never been able to do that.

from what ive heard normal wolves howl to tell other wolves that the area they are in is there territory, but i think the werewolf howl is a call of victory or revenge...

It could be; Lions roar in challenge, to intimidate, and to sayy "this is MINE!!!"

They also roar when they........uh, okay. I'll shut up now.

One use for howling is to signal position, letting others know where you are.

I would have a hard time buying that a howl conveyed very detailed information, however. It's a fairly simple sound. One can add inflections and such, but with a few howls, I have a hard time getting it to convey the statement:

"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything."

(--William Shakespeare, As You Like It)

Howls aren't that simple. It's not just their "melody" - the inflections and grace notes and tremolo that wolves put in. Howls are also loaded with harmonics that change from one howl to the next, even in the same wolf.

I can imageine trying to howl that...

WolfVanZandt wrote:Howls aren't that simple. It's not just their "melody" - the inflections and grace notes and tremolo that wolves put in. Howls are also loaded with harmonics that change from one howl to the next, even in the same wolf.

While it's true that animals can be expressive, but I hardly think that a 35 second "AAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" would be able to convey a message of "I have spotted a part of 14 drunken hunters who are wreaking of beer and whiskey. They have 20 rifles between them, and they have 12 boxes of ammunition, and are currently arguing whether or not to hunt deer out of season, or shoot at any random target. I recommend we alert the forest rangers, and encourage them to summon the police."

Well, obviously it can't express something really complex.

I gave an example above of what I thought a howl might be able to communicate and what it wouldn't. I agree that it would be limited but it would still be quite a lot more than "I'm here."

I think it might manage, "Hey! I found sashimi!"

So what's 'howl" for sashimi?

Well, in my case, it would be. "Ack, cough. sputter, spit, sput, AOWOWOWOoooooooooooblah!"

And all the wolves said, "Hey, man, he's found shashimi. Lezgo!"

But there's another point. Empathy is a subjective language. Everyone hearing a howl (even humans) would understand it's content to some degree, but to understand everything conveyed, you would have to know the howler intimately because the actual message is his internal atmosphere. The hearer deduces the message from that.

There are different howls for different things. Howling is really good for bonding in a pack. Wolves will hype themselves up before a hunt and after a hunt by howling. They will howl to let other packs know were they are and let them know that its their territory, so no strangers allowed. They howl when really happy or mourning. I think lots of extreme emotions have their own howl. When a wolf is seprete from their pack, they can howl and wait for a response from the others to find there way back.