Claws

[Figarou]

Time to merge threads.

[Trinity]

*will wait for teh mereg before adding her two cents*

[Figarou]

ok, its merged.

[Trinity]

I honestly think that when people think of a werewolf paw, its of a partial hand with evil-looking nails on teh end.


Am I correct in this assuption?

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My ideas on this, dogs nails are pretty sharp as puppies. As they constantly grow, they -need- to be worn down. Otherwise they could grow into a dog's paw. Very nasty.

Because dog's nails aren't retractable naturally, they get rubbed down, worn out, and rounded more. Cheetahs are another example of this, as they use their nails for traction. The same reason dogs have nails is also for help in traction.

Cats naturally keep their claws sharp. Theirs retract and are kept away from teh ground, primairly. The 'sheath' of their toes protects the claws from being worn down and rounded. Cats also keep their nails sharp by honing them on trees, carpet, or what ever they can "get their claws into". heh.

This breaks off the worn down parts, leaving a sharper more 'razor like' edge.

Now I'm no biomajor, but I do believe that the make up of cat's nails also lends to this -ability- to sharpen them. Maybe its teh structure of teh nail that when 'sharpened' they break off in such a way as to allow the nail edge to be well sharp.

Dog's nail structure, i believe, is more dense. If it does break it can lead to a jagged edge ( and likely lots of pain ), but not in the same manner as a cat. Dog's nails are -not- ment to break, not ment to be sharpened. Thier function is different and has eveoled differently.

This I'm sure would be better clarified by one better suited. ^.^

Now human nails can be honed to a razor edge. They can be strengthened and weakened depedning on enviromental factors and human habits. ;)

But humans nails are there to help protect the ends of teh finger. Mostly. That and scratch itches. ;)


Apparently dew claws of wolves can be sharp and pointed.

http://www.soappuppy.com/wolf/anatomy.html

There were five toes on each forefoot, with the first toe reduced to the dewclaw. The digits spread easily and widely upon pressure on the plantar ball (pawpad) and could be moved individually. Each was tipped with a blunt, black, keratinic claw approximately 2.5 cm long (the dewclaw was sharp -- it did not come in contact with the ground). One pad was observed beneath each digit, one pad directly beneath the metacarpal/phalange joints, one pad (small) behind the dewclaw, and one pad behind the carpals. The dewclaws, which appeared only on the forelimbs, appeared to be toes diminished during evolution. The hind feet had only four digits, of similar construction, with four digit balls, one plantar, and one carpal. Feet were proportionally wider and heavier than those of C. latrans or V. vulpes, and the forefeet were larger than the hind.

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*ponders*

How I see a werewolf paw very well may be etremely different then from what others see.

I see the end digits being very flexible, even double jointed so that they can fold up more like a wolf's toes do. Human hands just don't bend the way the pas digits od on a wolf.

I also see them running more on the top portion of teh palm, rather then flat-palmed. The Fat of the thumb would be higher up on the wrist, closer to where the dew claw would be.

So the over all palm would be sligthly longer, but still fairly flexiable. Unlike an ape, the palm itself doesn't flex as much, because of the impact and force applied to it from running on all fours. But the fingers, bieng double jointed, and the thumb being able to flex across the palm surface, woudl make it capable of holding things, using simple tools, being able to open doors ( but not ppick locks ).




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Edit: Links and info...,

[Celestialwolf]

For those who are unfamiliar with it, this is an example of Goldenwolf's paw pad configuration. It's from 2002, so her design may have changed since then.

-- Vilkacis

Yep. That's the one I choose. Same with the claws.

[vrikasatma]

I just visualized a gestalt werewolf with a dewclaw/thumb like a velociraptor's. The claws on the other four digits would be slightly blunted/strong, like a cheetah's claws, and the thumb (from the human, opposable and with lots of play) doing the damage.

This is probably a "hiding" function, because four parallel slashes are unknown in this biome except for bear or large cat attack, and there are precious few lions and tigers and not all that many bears in most cities. But single slashes would look like a simple knife attack until the forensics lab looks closer and finds keratin shards in the wound instead of metal powder. By then the werewolf has had more than enough opportunity to go to ground and disappear.

[Set]

For those who are unfamiliar with it, this is an example of Goldenwolf's paw pad configuration. It's from 2002, so her design may have changed since then.

-- Vilkacis

Yep. That's the one I choose. Same with the claws.

The one thing I don't like about the way those pads are set on there is the one on the wrist. It looks like it would just get in the way.

How do you think the claws come in when transforming? I remember Goldenwolf saying she likes the idea of the claw growing in from underneath the human fingernail, splitting it open, and making it fall off. That sounds a bit weird to me. I hate that just as much as I hate the idea of hair falling out during a TF. It's just bizarre and there's no reason for it. Human nails don't fall off when they grow so why would that happen with a werewolf?

[Renorei]

I wouldn't have the nails falling off. I would just have them grow into the shape of the claws. I wouldn't complicate it very much.

[Vuldari]

I wouldn't have the nails falling off. I would just have them grow into the shape of the claws. I wouldn't complicate it very much.

The hard part of fingernails does not grow. What is allready there is Dead matter...like hair. The way fingernails grow, (please...if I am wrong about this, someone correct me), is from the point where they are attatched to the body, the hard nail substance is created and added to the base of the nail, pushing the old stuff outward.

I would assume that the claws would grow out from essentially the same place, in nearly the same way, (only much faster). That means that the claws would grow out from the base of the nail, and the old flat fingernail would be like a flake stuck to the end of it...which would allmost immediately break off and fall away. ...though I'd think that as soon as something Not fingernail shaped began to grow at the base of the fingernail, it would likely chip off right away.

I think, aesthetically speaking, it would be best if the nails broke into several peices when they fall away, (assuming that detail is shown at all), so that you don't see WHOLE fingernails dropped and left behind, but merely chips like clippings instead.

[Renorei]

I just don't like the idea of little fingernail pieces being left behind after a werewolf TFs. It makes sense, but not very appealing to me. Also, we have to take into account that if the human nails fall off, so would the gestalt claws, and the wolf nails. After all, if a fingernail can't become a claw, there's no way in hell a claw can become a fingernail.

[Vuldari]

Also, we have to take into account that if the human nails fall off, so would the gestalt claws, and the wolf nails. After all, if a fingernail can't become a claw, there's no way in hell a claw can become a fingernail.

You have a very good point there.

...in that case, maybe the fingernail would fuse into the claw as it comes out underneath instead of breaking off, and then have the claw sort-of retract and get reabsorbed int the body durring the reverse shift, leaving only the upper, curved edge of the claw behind as the new fingernail on the surface.

...or something like that. I'm too tired to think clearly right now. (1:34am in Minnesota)

[Aki]

Despite the Gestalt being a hybrid, i think theclawsshouldbe long en ough to be used as a weapon, capable of rending flesh and killing people and things. Despite neither the Wolf's claw, nor the human nail being suited to those tasks all too well.

Think about this, the Gestalt has two promary forms of attack, Claws, and Teeth. Now, working strictly with hybridzation, your claws aren't too powerful, forcing a biting mode of attack, which is far from smart, as you're sticking your head out, asking for it to be lopped off and such...

As for the nail-to-claw thing. Human hair is also mostly daed, should body-hair/headhair fall out during the shift as well...?

Sometimes you have to fudge things for the sake of aesthetics..

[Renorei]

Sometimes you have to fudge things for the sake of aesthetics..

I definitely think Freeborn will need a lot of fudging.

The point that you make about hybrids is very relevant. After all, Ligers/Tygons are way bigger and better than lions or tigers. Even though humans and wolves can't rend flesh with their nails, I think gestalt claws should definitely be able to. It could easily be considered feasible (IMO), since hybrids are often way better than what they were hybrided from.

Vuldari, I agree with you that I think the claws could be absorbed into the body, and that the nails could fuse. I think that's a good solution.

I, for one, am not in favor of big piles of hair lying around after a gestalt TFs. Maybe a few hairs here and there, but nothing major.

[outwarddoodles]

The point that you make about hybrids is very relevant. After all, Ligers/Tygons are way bigger and better than lions or tigers. Even though humans and wolves can't rend flesh with their nails, I think gestalt claws should definitely be able to. It could easily be considered feasible (IMO), since hybrids are often way better than what they were hybrided from.

Actually theres not really a hybred form, as I've noted several times I beleive, and I really doubt we can breed a dog and a human (which would be gawd awful sick, yet I think the Nazis tried that?), and if we did, I doubt they are ever going to resemble what we are trying to picture. The gestalt is just something we make up, form and fit to a perferred way, and mess with. I can imagine someone can partially shift to a wolf to get a hybred form, but it wouldn't be as we imagine, the gestalt is formed and fitted for what we wanted and have changes to it that are not inbetween wolf or human but rather a strange mixture and change.

Neither wolf nor human rend flesh with their nails, it's to our tastes that they can in gestalt. Yet also the fact that the claws are growing back everytime it won't matter if you chip a nail, next shift it will be nice long and pointy.

How long do the claws grow anyway and is there anything that says or effects this? Such as do wolve's claws ever stop growing at some length?

Vuldari, I agree with you that I think the claws could be absorbed into the body, and that the nails could fuse. I think that's a good solution.

I, for one, am not in favor of big piles of hair lying around after a gestalt TFs. Maybe a few hairs here and there, but nothing major.

I think a realistic werewolf may just lose their claws, teeth, and fur, it's just that it's ugly and no one wants to see or think it.

[Renorei]

The point that you make about hybrids is very relevant. After all, Ligers/Tygons are way bigger and better than lions or tigers. Even though humans and wolves can't rend flesh with their nails, I think gestalt claws should definitely be able to. It could easily be considered feasible (IMO), since hybrids are often way better than what they were hybrided from.

Actually theres not really a hybred form, as I've noted several times I beleive, and I really doubt we can breed a dog and a human (which would be gawd awful sick, yet I think the Nazis tried that?), and if we did, I doubt they are ever going to resemble what we are trying to picture. The gestalt is just something we make up, form and fit to a perferred way, and mess with. I can imagine someone can partially shift to a wolf to get a hybred form, but it wouldn't be as we imagine, the gestalt is formed and fitted for what we wanted and have changes to it that are not inbetween wolf or human but rather a strange mixture and change.

True, there is no real hybrid form. However, I still think gestalt claws should be able to rend flesh, even though humans and wolves can't. Calling them 'hybrids' is just an attempt at creating some sort of logic, as illogical as it might be.

[Trinity]

I'd like to point out.

Blunt objects can do more damage and lead to more serious wounds, then sharp objects. Sharp-cut wounds heal faster and with less scarring.

If I were to stabb you with a spoon hard enough to make you bleed, the wound would scar up pretty badly. You'd have to cut off teh ragged ends adn sticth them toegther to have a less-ugly scar.

Wether they are sharp or not, Wolves, and dogs both can do serious damage with their calws. I've been clawed by both cats and dogs.

I'd rather be mauled by a cat then a dog -anyday-. ;)

[Black Shuck]

I'd rather not be mauled by either Cat scratches can get pretty ugly. Think of a large cat, like a tiger or a lion. Gestalt claws wouldn't be as small as a cat's claw. I don't know how they'd compare to a tiger's claw, but I'd imagine a little bit smaller. Perhaps the size of a small tiger, maybe more like a cougar or a panther. Dog claws hurt like a mother and I hate to think how hard my dog would have to step on me before he'd make me bleed! Ouch!! The claws wouldn't need to be razor sharp. I think that might be a little over the top

[outwarddoodles]

Well, different claws do different things. Bear claws can dig up dirt and snap your back, while say a cougar's claws are going to tear through you. Dog's claws arn't as sharp, I'd still say they can be, from all teh wear and taer on the ground, so I don't need to clip my dog's nails. Yet a werewolve's claws are growing back as new everytime, they may be nice and sharp.

[Black Shuck]

Yeah, but a cougar's claw is different from a domestic cat's claw. It's bigger and may not be as sharp, like canine teeth, but it'll do a hell of a lot more damage. Dogs and larger animals have more rounded canine teeth while cats and other small animals (puppies) have little needle ones. That's what I was trying to get at It takes me awhile okay?

I just thought of this too: Papercuts hurt more than getting cut by a knife after the skin is open, or at least, papercuts hurt a lot. I've had papercuts that hurt more any cat scratch I've ever had, despite the fact the papercut is far tinier. Things can be so sharp that you won't even notice them, like surgical razor blades. I've cut myself with those and never noticed until I saw blood dripping off my finger I don't think gestalt claws should be that sharp, but I don't think they should be as blunt as dog nails either. Alright, I'll be quiet now

[outwarddoodles]

Claws and teeth can be built very different among cats, yet claws do stil seem to have the same purpose, to shred. Yet these days because alot of cats don't need shredding claws they arn't going to be as sharp.



That can be needle like, but cats do also were once Saber Tooths, and those are NOT a needle in any way. Though it's a prehistoric example there, todays cats can also be very different.

Dogs and larger animals have more rounded canine teeth while cats and other small animals (puppies) have little needle ones

Though I understand that may of been a reference to pet cats, pet cats still do have rather large fangs as you can see on the top picture.


Wolf skull


Lion

[Vilkacis]

I just thought of this too: Papercuts hurt more than getting cut by a knife after the skin is open, or at least, papercuts hurt a lot. I've had papercuts that hurt more any cat scratch I've ever had, despite the fact the papercut is far tinier. Things can be so sharp that you won't even notice them, like surgical razor blades. I've cut myself with those and never noticed until I saw blood dripping off my finger

Now, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that a papercut is not deep enough or severe enough to cause the body to go into shock and block out the pain, or whatever it is the body does in response to a wound. A papercut, being only surface-deep, is right where the nerves are, so it has all the pain of a deep cut, but without the body response.

That's what I suspect, at least.

-- Vilkacis

[Black Shuck]

For some reason my comp's being weird and the pics aren't showing up But... Teeth among carnivores have the same general purpose too: To tear meat. A domestic cat's claws are sharp enough to get the job done. I think they're plenty sharp to be honest. I also think that most feline claws would have the same intent: Bringing down prey, self defense (attacking, getting into trees, etc) and protection of offspring.

When I said needle-like, I was referring to small animals. They're smaller so they're teeth look more pointy and therefore, needle-like. They're teeth are not actually pointy, but more rounded to prevent chipping/breakage, although they still break their fangs sometimes. Cats can have big fangs, although I've never seen a domestic cat with huge fangs. They're teeth have the same needle look (not to mention feel, heh) of really little dogs like dauchshunds or a chihuahua (not the teacup kind, the bigger ones), or even small poodles.

[Trinity]

Well, different claws do different things. Bear claws can dig up dirt and snap your back, while say a cougar's claws are going to tear through you. Dog's claws arn't as sharp, I'd still say they can be, from all teh wear and taer on the ground, so I don't need to clip my dog's nails. Yet a werewolve's claws are growing back as new everytime, they may be nice and sharp.

Dogs dew claws, for those that retain them.., it has been documented that since they don't often touch teh grond.., they ARE sharp.

So say by teh end of teh day of runningaround on all fours, teh werewolves claws are going to dull down. But in those first few moments of just changed Gestlat, I can see how the claws would be shrap as heck. ;)

*grins*