missing matter

[WolvenOne]

Again I shall reiterate, if a werewolf gains mass, there's no-way for them know how they do it, and not only is finding a biological work-around near impossible, but a werewolf isn't likely to know the exact details of that either.

Realism, is important, but ultimately in fiction, art trumps realism.

[Apokryltaros]

Realism, is important, but ultimately in fiction, art trumps realism.

Indeed, what's the point of being practical and realistic if it means the end-result is ugly?

[Kzinistzerg]

at this poitn we can discuss it for fun but i don't think this would be going in the movie.

[Apokryltaros]

at this poitn we can discuss it for fun but i don't think this would be going in the movie.

It's not like Zombies Einstein and Newton are going to crawl out of their respective graves, and pronounce dire curses unto the 7th generations of our descendents for trying to do something that would require us to tie the laws of Physics into macramay

[Figarou]

Again I shall reiterate, if a werewolf gains mass, there's no-way for them know how they do it, and not only is finding a biological work-around near impossible, but a werewolf isn't likely to know the exact details of that either.

Realism, is important, but ultimately in fiction, art trumps realism.

Its best not to explain where the extra mass comes from. Its all fiction. Anything can happen in a fictional story.

[Scott Gardener]

Likewise, for all my ranting, if they look as if they could have either gotten larger or stayed the same, without being sure one way or the other, I'll be fine. It's only if we see eight feet tall behemoths like in Van Helsing that I start getting skeptical. And, somehow, I don't see someone stopping the werewolf and pulling out a scale and a laptop running an Excel program.

[Figarou]

Well, I know one thing. Werewolves looks so much cooler when they are bigger than the avarage human.

[Lupin]

It's not like Zombies Einstein and Newton are going to crawl out of their respective graves, and pronounce dire curses unto the 7th generations of our descendents for trying to do something that would require us to tie the laws of Physics into macramay

I'd pay to see a movie like that. You could have a lot of fun with that.

[Lupin]

Realism, is important, but ultimately in fiction, art trumps realism.

Yeah, repeat to yourself "It's just a show, I should really just relax."

Well, I know one thing. Werewolves looks so much cooler when they are bigger than the avarage human.

Like I've said before, I wouldn't be real intimidated by a werewolf I had to look down at.

Edit: Yay, post #2^7.

[Kzinistzerg]

Well, since my were-creatures had magic, in my universe, they took a sort of material and used it as a kind of extra mass...

[Fenrir]

I've thaught on this for the past couple of days, and yes I know this is about a month late, but what if werewolves are more dense then the average person. Like a black hole the virus or whatever condenses matter and then expands it during the change. This would explain how the change in size would occur, this would also lead to a side effect of increased strength. The fur growth is the one thing that I can't get an idea on.

[Goldenwolf]

*shrugs* To me, werewolves are semi-magical creatures, so the matter loss and gain is simply a matter of drawing in and forcing out matter from and to other planes or dimensions. It's magic.

However, I did read a werewolf story once (somewhere) where the werewolf was a full moon shifter, and from the half moon to the full he ate like a ravenous pig, adding the matter he would need to shift. When he did shift, his body would simply convert all he had eaten into the needed cells and what not. When he shifted back, the matter would slough off of him like ectoplasm or some sort of slime, returning him to normal until the waxing half moon. I always thought that was interesting.

[PariahPoet]

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I never liked the way werewolves bulk up in gestalt form. I'd rather see a human lose height while gaining muscle and fur. It would make more sense...but then that's just me.

[WolvenOne]

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I never liked the way werewolves bulk up in gestalt form. I'd rather see a human lose height while gaining muscle and fur. It would make more sense...but then that's just me.

Um.... it'd make sense if it was an overwieght werewolf and it had the spare bodymass to create the extra muscle and fur you speak of. However at more moderate wieghts it'll appear to be "bulking up," at least in subtle ways.

[Anubis]

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I never liked the way werewolves bulk up in gestalt form. I'd rather see a human lose height while gaining muscle and fur. It would make more sense...but then that's just me.

Um.... it'd make sense if it was an overwieght werewolf and it had the spare bodymass to create the extra muscle and fur you speak of. However at more moderate wieghts it'll appear to be "bulking up," at least in subtle ways.

if you read my post at the begining you'll see that was my second therie (damn it! i can't spell worth a damn!)

[Fenrir]

*shrugs* To me, werewolves are semi-magical creatures, so the matter loss and gain is simply a matter of drawing in and forcing out matter from and to other planes or dimensions. It's magic.

However, I did read a werewolf story once (somewhere) where the werewolf was a full moon shifter, and from the half moon to the full he ate like a ravenous pig, adding the matter he would need to shift. When he did shift, his body would simply convert all he had eaten into the needed cells and what not. When he shifted back, the matter would slough off of him like ectoplasm or some sort of slime, returning him to normal until the waxing half moon. I always thought that was interesting.

I like the magic theory and I love when that's the only thing scientist can use to explain something for me that gives a somewhat uplifting hope that humanity does not take out the surprise and mystery of life. Unfortunatly I'am the kind of person who needs a definite answer to things, so with all these people coming up with there own respectable theories I just came up with an answer that seemed good and would respectively work with the known laws of physics. And compacted matter works, but magic is just so much cooler.

[Anubis]

you just took the words right out of my mouth

[Lupin]

Yeah, the magic explination is pretty good. Ties up all the loose ends without meaningless technobabble.

[Figarou]

Yeah, the magic explination is pretty good. Ties up all the loose ends without meaningless technobabble.

Magic is used everywhere. Its the best way to explain anything.

[Scott Gardener]

Pariah Poet:

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I never liked the way werewolves bulk up in gestalt form...

We're both in the same minority. But, in my daydreams, to quote Homer Simpson, "we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"

Still, the extradimensional theory that Goldenwolf mentioned leaves open the realm of theoretical physics, so there's room for that fuzzy ground between magic and science. I've toyed with the idea of "astral lycanthropy" before, and I intend to again, though not specifically to make werewolves bigger.

As far as the binge-and-purge shifting, well, I can see it, but, that's just gross. It's great if you're shooting for a horror story. You can have the guy grow big and deformed while eating, and then shift, and then shed a bunch of gooy glop when shifting back. There's also another thread here where you can have teeth falling out. It would certainly deliver on shock value, and you could give Ginger Snaps and AWIL a run for the money. But, if lycanthropy is like that, I'm going to have to change my ultimate daydream to winning the lottery like everybody else.

[mielikkishunt]

Maybe a HUGE appetite prior to the shift? But even then, gorging on dozens of pounds of food is a stretch... and then after the change... it would have to be... well... expunged - and after translated to body organs, bone, fur? As much as I hate to admit it, the "shedding" idea works better mass-wise to rid them of some of the mass when shifting back.

Regardless, I say this is one area where it's best to "fudge"

My shifters have to eat a lot, to maintain bodymass. .. diddling with a storybit now where the female was infected by a virus, resulting in her losing control of the shift. She basically wore herself into a walking skeleton, and has to get her strength and bodymass back.

Lots of raw, boneless meat just before the shift would equate to less output(Just ask anyone who feeds a BARF diet to their dogs. . less output vs kibble). A lot of what we as humans eat, is filled with crap/fillers, and thus so much output LOL

[Fenrir]

Werewolf one *staring at microwave* "Dude how does it's magic you put cold food in press a button and your food comes out hot, magic!

Werewolf two "Actually the microwaves make the water in the food vibrate causing the food to..."

Werewolf one "wo dude magic, just leave it at magic."

[Jamie]

If a werewolf does literally gain mass at the moment of transformation, even a tiny bit, then we're dealing with something more sophisticated than mere virus-like particles, as nothing we know in basic biology can carry out subatomic fusion or fission reactions, or otherwise fiddle with E=mc^2 to make things bigger. We'd instead be delving into the realms of transdimensional beings, ectoplasm, and other things currently squarely in the realm of postulation and metaphysics, where normal, expected things like the painful first shift or the problem of getting teeth to change shape could easily be non-issues.

This is one of the reasons why, in my werewolf designs that I hope to eventually put into novels, I use the idea of transdimensional phenomena. If you've got a swarm of particles teleporting back and forth across a dimensional border, or a little pocket dimension to store things in, so many of the physical problems involved with werewolf transformations just go *poof*.

Suddenly, mass changes are no problem, teeth transform as easily as butter spreads, and you could even toss in the idea of clothing turning to part of the animal body if you wanted to, without seeming too ridiculous. Try any of that stuff with purely biological lycanthropy and you run into lots of complicated problems... problems that could be solved, but problems whose solutions are very complicated, hard to understand, and therefore need to be handled very carefully in order to avoid ruining people's suspension of disbelief.

I

can't picture a 120lb female gestalt form werewolf no matter how you cut it - the fur alone would be pretty heavy. (Mass, as long as we're talking about this planet, can directly translate to weight.)

I've got two possible solutions to that problem. One, the fur of wild animals, especially if it is very fine and high-quality (i.e. the kind that feels nice to the touch and is efficient at keeping you warm), often weighs FAR less than it seems like it should (just see this reindeer fur that weighs just 3 pounds as an example).
Another thing to realize is that wolves (partially because of their fur) tend to look like they weigh much more than they actually do. When people see a 70-pound wolf, they tend to think it is about 120 pounds, because it has roughly the same dimensions (shoulder height from ground, total length, neck width) as a 120-pound dog (for more information about wolf measurements as compared to dogs, see the first chapter of the book "Of Wolves and Men" by Barry Lopez). People who see wolves in the wild are often under the impression that they are almost as large as deer, but while the average weight of whitetail deer is about 190 pounds, there are few wild wolves that weigh more than 135.

Wolves are actually smaller than humans on average. The enormous, eight-foot "Crinos form" behemoths of a lot of contemporary stories contradicts basic logic. (But, to their credit, people still described the Beast of Bray Road as being pretty huge. Still, people are very prone to exaggerating when scared.)
There's no reason a werewolf can't stay at 120 lbs. in all three forms. (Note that a 120 lb. person is either a teenager or young adult, or likely either short or underweight, or both.)

I agree. Although, if you wanted something more biologically realistic, you'd have a human in the 140-160 pound range, and then the wolf form would be REALLY HUGE for a wolf. It would probably look like it was 200 pounds or more to most witnesses, even though it wasn't. Everyone would wonder how such a little guy shifted into such a monster wolf, but it would all be perfectly within the bounds of physics. However, in gestalt form, the werewolf still probably would NOT look like the muscular stereotype, because wolves are not built like bears.

[Vilkacis]

Try any of that stuff with purely biological lycanthropy and you run into lots of complicated problems... problems that could be solved, but problems whose solutions are very complicated, hard to understand, and therefore need to be handled very carefully in order to avoid ruining people's suspension of disbelief.

So instead, you give them something with impossible problems, problems that can't be solved, with no solutions, impossible to understand, and therefore need to be handled very carefully in order to avoid ruining people's suspension of disbelief?


Heh, either way is fine with me, depending on the context. The problems come when you try to give an explanation for something when no true explanation exists. It's probably better to leave that kind of thing to the audience's discretion.

-- Vilkacis

[WolvenOne]

Well.... I don't think werewolves would necceserilly be huge behemoths, but, from my POV, it's more biologically feasible to add matter on and shed it later then it would be to shed matter then add it back on later.

Plus, even if a werwolf stayed the same hieght it would look bigger and wiegh more simply due to the addition of a tail and all that fur.

Plus, while CG has become more prevelent, it cannot be used in every case, especially at a lower budget. So whatever speciel effects you use have to have dimensions similer enough to a human just in case a person in a suit needs to stand in for a quick frame here and there.