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I like something Trinity said. I think their true form would be whatever the shifted back to when they're, hurt, in extremem pain, unconsious, whatever. Whenver they can't control the shift, they would probably go into whatever form they're most comfortable with, and that would really be their true form.

Actually, a lot of people thought of this idea a long time ago, because it is in folklore. In Europe, where people generally considered shapeshifters as humans who could turn into animals, there are many legends about uncovering a werewolf's identity by confronting it in animal form and injuring it to make it turn human. In Asia, where people generally thought that shapeshifters were magical animals with the ability to become human, there are legends about confronting a fox maiden in human form and beating her or burning her until she revealed her true form, a fox.

I've also seen this idea in some novels, including the idea that shapeshifters always go back to their true form during sleep. If werewolves worked like that, you'd really hope that it would be possible to change your "true" form by spending lots of time in it, otherwise, those werewolves who tried to live as wolves in the wilderness would have a lot of cold, sleepless nights.

I think it would go something like this:

*Ack! It's thirty below outside the den and every time I fall asleep, I convert back into a furless naked human, start shivering, and scare the rest of the pack away from me, so I can't even get body warmth from them*

Heh cold indeed. ;)


Onto the previous note about biiology and the human body being able to give birth to humans and or wolves.

I will point out a few hard facts. Human uterus is a single pocket. There are genetica anomolies that make it form two pockets instead of one. This cause undue stress and hardship on the uman mother. The fetus has very little room to grow. In the odd cases of teh seperate 'pockets' being lopsides in size, if the fetus grows in the smaller one it can die of being crushed to death.

The human female form is not built to sustain a double-pocket uterus.

Wolves, like most canines, have a double pocket ( horned ) uterus. Puppies line either side of the uterus is either pocket. They are much smaller percentage wise to the mother then human babies are to their mothers. Meaning that comparitively, they are smaller by a lot then human babies ( if you check the percent of size of the babies versus the percent of size of the mother ).

Even if the virus would 'convert' human anaotmy to be able to give birth to puppies and/or gestalt form babies, the mother and/or babies would be in extreme danger of dying.

If shifting between forms changes the anatomy as such that one could feasiably give birth to wolves, even though one was born human, then shifting itself would cause an automatic abortion of the fetus. Because the internal as well as external anatomy shifts so drastically that the likelyhood of the fetus staying attached to the uterine wall is slim to none.

Now of course ( in a more positive light ) this could prove to be a good method of "Natural" birth control on many counts.

I point this out for those who aren't educated in human internal anatomy for breeeding purposes. I've talked with my Gyno about certain issues, having had a misscarriage myself. There are certain, very important key events, that HAVE to happen, in order to have the pregnancy go through with out a hithc.., and THIS is only for regular healthy people that have no weird genetic hiccups. People who have such genetic hiccups, as mentioned above, being able to GET preggers is a miricle in and of itself.

The Human body regulates things very well, in order to sustain the life of the mother. Without the mother in th eearly stages, the child has a very slim to non chance of surviving.

This ofcourse can be applied to any number of Mammaliam mothers, as well. ;)

The virus would have to be so extreme as to change the entire internal sturctures, permenantly. Thus upon Autopsy of the body, the docs would go "Huh, now this in unusual". Which is exactly the thing werewolves would not want. ;)


So I think, IMO now, that a "true form" could also be determined by what your "breeding fomr" is as well. Maybe werewolf females get "trapped" in a particular form ( be it gestalt or otherwise ) in order to see th pregenacy through all the way. This could be a biological triggered event, and only the most extreme efforts on the side of the werewolf could force them out of the "breeding form".

Heh. Now would that be something!

"Heh mom?"

"yeah" *mom walks into the room and stands shock still seeing her daught in gestlat form.

"Oh dear" <-- mom

"I can't shift!" <-- daughter

Mom, with hands on her hips, "Are you pregnant?"

yeah that whats i was saying to lupin, in human form body wont reject the gastalt baby, it just that it couldnt, the human form wont have enough room for the gastalt and would die. crushing it to death, but sense a gastalt should have 2 pockets and enough room it should be able to hold up a baby in human, gastalt and wolf form cause its half and half.

*nods* Okay, so then teh questions again ( and naturally, holy cow ) returns ( tangents back to hehe ) what exactly a werewolf's "Ture form" actually is?

*ponders*

Trinity wrote:There are certain, very important key events, that HAVE to happen, in order to have the pregnancy go through with out a hithc.., and THIS is only for regular healthy people that have no weird genetic hiccups.

Yes, with all of the things that can go wrong, it's amazing that anyone gets pregnant.

Trinity wrote:So I think, IMO now, that a "true form" could also be determined by what your "breeding fomr" is as well. Smile Maybe werewolf females get "trapped" in a particular form ( be it gestalt or otherwise ) in order to see th pregenacy through all the way.

I was toying with an idea like that. The various changes in a woman as a result of pregnancy would cause them to lose the ability to shift until they delivered the child.

Shadow Wulf wrote:but sense a gastalt should have 2 pockets and enough room it should be able to hold up a baby in human, gastalt and wolf form cause its half and half.

If the gestalt form had two pockets, and a gestalt fetus was larger than a human one, then it couldn't support a gestalt fetus. The pockets make the available area smaller.

Lupin wrote:

Shadow Wulf wrote:but sense a gastalt should have 2 pockets and enough room it should be able to hold up a baby in human, gastalt and wolf form cause its half and half.

If the gestalt form had two pockets, and a gestalt fetus was larger than a human one, then it couldn't support a gestalt fetus. The pockets make the available area smaller.

True.

Unless the Gestalt form had the "wolf genes" for smaller babbies. There could even be a higher chance of twin births, because of the smaller baby size. But th edownside to this is that the infants would not be able to shift, and would be dependant on a gesltat sized mother to care for them. I don't know abuot any of you other females out there, but I surely do not want needle sized teeth of a baby gestalt werewolf NEAR my upper half for feeding purposes! eesh. Ouch.

Actually, it would NOT be much of a stretch to have the human uterus retain its two-horned wolf-like biology while holding twins or multiple births, but the physiology of such children would have to be aimiable to such a design. For one thing, they'd have to be designed to be born early and light. (The tabloid articles about giving birth to puppies comes to mind.)

Wolf Lake started to hint at this, but the series was cancelled before it could really be explained or addressed--we just saw numerous parents with four or five children each.

The idea of pregancy preventing shifting is one that's been explored before; it would be a bugger if one as a human had to explain where she was for the last several months, being stuck in wolf form, with cubs.

My own werewolves in my storyline have a hard time keeping a pregancy, because shifting itself tends to strain pregancy in the first trimester, dramatically increasing chances of spontaneous miscarriage. After about fourteen weeks, there's a tendancy to hold the human form, though shifting can be done--it's painful again, even to a seasoned shifter, because of the visceral organ strain. My lycanthropes tend to follow human specifications--a 40 week gestation (nine months), singleton births with rare twins, etc. But, mine can shift before birth, making for some rather strange delivery scenes--cute or terrifying, depending on one's point of view.

Incidence of bicornate uterine horns in human form is higher in my lycanthropes, especially those born with it rather than converted by the virus.

As a side note, I'm surprised that absolutely no one has chosen pure wolf as the true form. (I voted for no true form myself, being the relativist I am.)

ill have to agree with scott, its rally hard to say whats thier true form, its like a frog, whats thier true form, the adult or the tadpole.

Wow...
All this talk of the rigors of pregnancies and lycanthropy, and comparison between human and wolf anatomies have got me thinking: I'm glad we aren't like sharks.
And if pregnant lycanthropes think that they and their babies have it rough, they should see what viparious sharks have to go through...
The fetuses of many of those sharks that go through live birth practice what's called "intra-uterine cannibalism," where the eldest fetus feeds on its younger siblings before they leave their mother's womb... Inevitably, the mother gives birth to only one, rarely two, pups, even though she may have had up to a dozen fertilized embryos.

Scott Gardener wrote: spontaneous miscarriage

*twitch* You do realize you just double up on a menaing of a word? Silly.

A Misscarriage is a spontaneous abortion. Induced abortion is the one everyone and their mother is all up in arms about. Abortion is just that, an ejection of the fetus from teh body.

Its all very visceral and ugly sounding, but then science isn't all flowers and rainbows either. ;) Yeah rainbows! ^.^

I further would like to offer appologies if any of this talk about fetuses offends anyone. I for one am compfrtable talking about such thing, but I know others are not. ^.^

Apokryltaros wrote: The fetuses of many of those sharks that go through live birth practice what's called "intra-uterine cannibalism," where the eldest fetus feeds on its younger siblings before they leave their mother's womb... Inevitably, the mother gives birth to only one, rarely two, pups, even though she may have had up to a dozen fertilized embryos.

Crikeies. hehe yeah I remember reading that somewhere. Now depending on wether or not the werewolf in Freeborn is considered a "apex predator" like the shark or gator.., well it would depend on what happens to the unborn.


As for a wolf-form true form.., that's a thought in deed. I think I mentioned it where teh werewolves in "The Promise" were born as cubs, went through their "First change" to humans, but didn't get their "Ture Change" abilities until sometimes around or just before puberty. Their 'Ture form' is Wolf. When ever they hit near death or badly injured, they automatically slip into their wolf guise.

When dead, they bodies automoatcially revert to wolf.

Apokryltaros wrote:The fetuses of many of those sharks that go through live birth practice what's called "intra-uterine cannibalism," where the eldest fetus feeds on its younger siblings before they leave their mother's womb... Inevitably, the mother gives birth to only one, rarely two, pups, even though she may have had up to a dozen fertilized embryos.

Wow, I knew that there were some kinds of tadpoles that do something like that, but not in their mother's womb like that.

Lupin wrote:

Apokryltaros wrote:The fetuses of many of those sharks that go through live birth practice what's called "intra-uterine cannibalism," where the eldest fetus feeds on its younger siblings before they leave their mother's womb... Inevitably, the mother gives birth to only one, rarely two, pups, even though she may have had up to a dozen fertilized embryos.

Wow, I knew that there were some kinds of tadpoles that do something like that, but not in their mother's womb like that.

The tadpoles of many kinds of desert frogs cannibalize each other. The typical example is the tadpole of the spadefoot toad, in that, some of the tadpoles are larger, and instead of having a cute, algae-rasping mouth, they will have a sharp, horny beak with which to tear into prey, ie, their siblings. It's a macabre form of insurance that at least a few of the tadpoles will make it to adulthood, even if they have to chew their way to it.

The intra-uterine cannibalism of sharks follows a similiar, if not identical principle. However, this method has, and forgive my metaphor, lead to many shark species shooting themselves in the foot, if they had feet, in that, the mothers are unable to produce enough offspring quickly enough to replenish their populations, which have suffered tremendously due to human depredations.

Apokryltaros wrote:Wow...
All this talk of the rigors of pregnancies and lycanthropy, and comparison between human and wolf anatomies have got me thinking: I'm glad we aren't like sharks.
And if pregnant lycanthropes think that they and their babies have it rough, they should see what viparious sharks have to go through...
The fetuses of many of those sharks that go through live birth practice what's called "intra-uterine cannibalism," where the eldest fetus feeds on its younger siblings before they leave their mother's womb... Inevitably, the mother gives birth to only one, rarely two, pups, even though she may have had up to a dozen fertilized embryos.

Heh...I seen that on Animal Planet. I think the Tiger shark is the same way. Unless viparious sharks happens to be one.

Honestly, I think it's a moot point to describe a facile shapeshifter as having a "true form". What they truly are is a shapeshifter.

I think when living in highly populated areas, you could call human a "default" form, to be returned to in times of trauma because leaving a mostly human corpse is much safer than leaving a wolf or gestalt one.

In terms of child-bearing, it's done all sorts of different ways in different mythologies. If a were doesn't have a "true form", the infant may possibly be born in any of three configurations. In some, the mother even takes the equivalent of gestalt form for the birth, because it's the only one of the three that can support the possibility of giving birth to a gestalt-formed infant.

Oh. And I'm new here. Hiya. ::tail wag::

hey there , but yeah that what i was talking about the other post, it would be safer in gastalt cause it should support all three forms.

Figarou wrote: Heh...I seen that on Animal Planet. I think the Tiger shark is the same way. Unless viparious sharks happens to be one.

"Viparious" means to give birth without the need of an egg, as opposed to "oviparious," which is a fancy term for egg-laying.
Tiger sharks are examples of viparious sharks, while bamboo sharks are examples of oviparious sharks.

Faolan Ruadh wrote:Honestly, I think it's a moot point to describe a facile shapeshifter as having a "true form". What they truly are is a shapeshifter.

I think when living in highly populated areas, you could call human a "default" form, to be returned to in times of trauma because leaving a mostly human corpse is much safer than leaving a wolf or gestalt one.

In terms of child-bearing, it's done all sorts of different ways in different mythologies. If a were doesn't have a "true form", the infant may possibly be born in any of three configurations. In some, the mother even takes the equivalent of gestalt form for the birth, because it's the only one of the three that can support the possibility of giving birth to a gestalt-formed infant.



Oh. And I'm new here. Hiya. ::tail wag::

Smart, I never thaught of that
Oh and welcome to the pack

Oh and your from GA too yay

Faolan Ruadh wrote:I think when living in highly populated areas, you could call human a "default" form, to be returned to in times of trauma because leaving a mostly human corpse is much safer than leaving a wolf or gestalt one.

That's what I've been discussing as a "true form".

Oh. And I'm new here. Hiya. ::tail wag::

Welcome to The Pack

Apokryltaros wrote:

Figarou wrote: Heh...I seen that on Animal Planet. I think the Tiger shark is the same way. Unless viparious sharks happens to be one.

"Viparious" means to give birth without the need of an egg, as opposed to "oviparious," which is a fancy term for egg-laying.
Tiger sharks are examples of viparious sharks, while bamboo sharks are examples of oviparious sharks.

oh..ok..I didn't bother looking up "Viparious."

Faolan Ruadh wrote:Honestly, I think it's a moot point to describe a facile shapeshifter as having a "true form". What they truly are is a shapeshifter.

I think when living in highly populated areas, you could call human a "default" form, to be returned to in times of trauma because leaving a mostly human corpse is much safer than leaving a wolf or gestalt one.

In terms of child-bearing, it's done all sorts of different ways in different mythologies. If a were doesn't have a "true form", the infant may possibly be born in any of three configurations. In some, the mother even takes the equivalent of gestalt form for the birth, because it's the only one of the three that can support the possibility of giving birth to a gestalt-formed infant.

Oh. And I'm new here. Hiya. ::tail wag::

Maybe, when a female WW gets pregnent, shifting becomes more and more difficult. Kindof like running out of gas. And one day(still early in the pregnecy) they cant shift at all. The body would have them stay in whatever that form is so the baby(s)/pup(s) can grow and develop safely. It may become possable to shift again near birthing time, but it would be a foolish thing to do. Would be very dangerous for both the mother and her offspring. Whatever species her offspring(litter ) could be would depend on whatever form the mother took and stayed in while pregnent and/or? what form she was in during conception. Whooo Just another theory anyways.

And as for death, I strongly believe that whatever form the WW died in, is what their corpse will stay as. A gestalt gets killed, a gestalt gets buried/burned whatever. If the individual had enough will and strenghth as they were dying, they could shift to whatever form they wished; most likely human or full wolf.

And thus ends my post of the chronicals of life and death

Lupin wrote:I would think that it would be the human form, since that the one they had "first" (before they got bitten.)

I agree. While the werewolf form is more powerful and better in almost every way, the human form was there before the bite.

Lazywolf wrote:

Lupin wrote:I would think that it would be the human form, since that the one they had "first" (before they got bitten.)

I agree. While the werewolf form is more powerful and better in almost every way, the human form was there before the bite.

Unless one was born with the virus in their system. Then what ever they were born as ( wolf, gestalt or human ) by that logic would be their true form.


Many different mythologys ( especially modern ), have different ways of handling this idea.

Traditional werewolf mythos, of teh older variety, just state that the werewolf is a human you is taken over by their beast.

So if we stick to somethign a bit more historical, then yes I can see the human form being the 'default' or 'true form'.., even for a birthed werewolf.



But...


If we take other considerations into play, things change drastically. The need to hide becomes more important.


Like in "The Promise" ( finished, great novel for a soft-core romance styled horror book. Lots of intresting ideas! ) the werewolf's true form is a wolf. They have no hybrid form, no middle form. Just wolf to human and back again. They are born as wolves, but singally.., no litters. There is also a huge span of time between births as well.

They have to hide their natures by "getting to the bodies first". Unless a MAJOR issue occurs, werewolves in that novel apparently can control where they will die to some extent. The way it was written, it seemed as though it wasn't often that they had to hide the bodies ( but it does happen ).

That and the bodies decay REALLY fast too.


In W.W. WWtA, the death-induced form takes on its breed form, as in that genre wolves and humans can cross-mate with werewolves. Their 'true form' is their birth form.


This then brings up the questiosn of how this particular movie is going to handle the "true form" aspect of things.

--> Does the virus change the body so drastically that they are no longer truely human anymore? From what I have read, it very well could.

--> Does the virus only change the body in such a way as to effect the "Change" and that's it? If its a wide spread of a virus.., then that doesn't make sense. But then again, this -is- a movie, so not everythign HAS to make sense ( I just preferr it. ;) *chuckles* ).

--> What of born werewolves, do they still need to be bitten to effect the change. Adding the "live" virus to their system even though the virus exists there upon birth?

--> What form would the fetus take as it developed? What does teh virus do to that? Does it even effect human biology on that level? See above questions.

--> CAN werewolves even breed. yers many of us would like that.., but what if the virus made them sterile? Thatwould solve a HUGE hole in biology and its not utterly unheard of. Makes it less fun, sure, but could be another reason why teh wereolves are so dern secretive and impartial. Who -becomes- a werewolf, who interacts with a werewolf.., etc.., could become even more important.., -because- werewolvs can't breed.

( Now I don't know about any on the rest of you, but I kinda like that idea. Its different, and I haven't seen it done anywhere else as far as I know. )



Answering some of these questions more throughly.., if the Pack feels its even warranted.., may help us solve the "true form" issues.

*grins*

Foo d for thought.

Trinity wrote:--> CAN werewolves even breed. yers many of us would like that.., but what if the virus made them sterile? Thatwould solve a HUGE hole in biology and its not utterly unheard of. Makes it less fun, sure, but could be another reason why teh wereolves are so dern secretive and impartial. Who -becomes- a werewolf, who interacts with a werewolf.., etc.., could become even more important.., -because- werewolvs can't breed.

( Now I don't know about any on the rest of you, but I kinda like that idea. Its different, and I haven't seen it done anywhere else as far as I know. )

You see that all the time in movies and books about vampires.

Werewolves seem much more natural to me (as much as a supernatural being can be), so I don't much care for the idea of them being sterile. Even so, that doesn't rule it out as a possibility.

-- Vilkacis