how does it work?

[celtwolf]

well, with all the 'filler' in the extra chromosomes, isn't it also possible to have information on how to change and how to transfer the chromosome to others? yes, 'virus' works, but minimally. you yourself said it would be the wrong name for what the organism does. AND you said that the genes and chromosomes for wolf DNA and the ability to change shape can feasably exist, so why can't that work?
i fail to see how any of the information does anything but further prove the possability of my idea, so i'll thank you for that.
i just don't like the idea of calling it a virus. yet, i can't really come up with a better name. it's not a virus, but not just a chromosome. maybe we could call it a virusome? hmm, i like virusome. a virus with enough information to implant and replicate a whole chromosome of information in a human. woiuld that work?

[white]

We were talking about my idea there; an actual virus could work in that context.

[celtwolf]

sorry, i wrote that before you posted that last bit.
and that wouldn't actually work. at least not really. every virus has an incubation period. as soon as the virus is introduced, it takes a lot of time to spread. about a week or so for most people, it varies by how many other virii can be made by a cell before it's destroyed and how large the person is. and, seeing as a werewolf doesn't die after the 'virus' takes full affect in their bodies, the destruction of the cell doesn't occur, and thus, very few virii are produced before the production of virii stops. so it would take a REALLY long time for the virus to spread throughout the body. that, and i can't think of a virus that would 'know' not to destroy the host cell and cease it's reproduction before that happened. and if the virus takes so long to spread, the human immune system would probably figure out a way to combat the virus naturally.
and speeding up the process would be deadly as well. to shorten the incubation period, one of two things'd have to happen: either the virus would have to mass reproduce or it'd have to speed up the host cell's processes, both of witch are dangerous. if the virus mass produces itself, it would kill the host cell, and if it spread to other cells as virii do, it will act like any other virus and destroy cells, and lots of them, thus quite probabvly killing the person if it isn't stopped and destroyed. and speeding up the host cells processes would be equally disasterous. the cell would need a LOT of energy and oxygen, so the person would need to eat a lot and probably start to breathe hevily, and as the virus spreads, the infected person would need more and more food and possibly hyperventilate, and maybe collapse a lung. and even if the virus produced the energy needed on it's own, the cell would likely heat up from all the action it's doing, raising the persons body temperature. the fever would either kill the virus or do perminent brain damage, probably to the point of KILLING the person.
it's just not possable

[white]

It doesn't need to be nearly as fast if it's enabling an existing gene, does it?

[Lupin]

it's destroyed and how large the person is. and, seeing as a werewolf doesn't die after the 'virus' takes full affect in their bodies, the destruction of the cell doesn't occur, and thus, very few virii are produced before the production of virii stops.

The virus isn't activly changing the host, it's just the presence of the virus that causes the werewolf genes to express themselves.

[celtwolf]

i suppose.
but if they're there already, why can't they be activated by something else? why does it have to be a virus that activates the genes? if it was just a matter of the right stimulus to activate the genes, then why coudn't it just be a specific chemical that is produced in a werewolf that, once introduced into a human body, activates the genes?
i just see too much of a problem with the simple virus idea.

[Lupin]

Well nobody said that a virus was the only thing that would do it. It's just that things like plants and chemicals aren't going to be transfered by bite, and things like a virus will (protiens and whatnot tend to break down when exposed.)

[celtwolf]

but chemicals ARE introduced when someone is bitten what is saliva but a series of chemicles and particulate matter?
and when did i talk about plants?

[white]

You didn't talk about plants. It was an example. Saliva is mostly enzymes and maybe some weak acid in solution.

Chemicals may be introduced, but in only very small quantities that would have a hard time spreading to and affecting the entire body. A virus can do that even if only a few of it are transferred, as it multiplies once in the host.

[Lupin]

but chemicals ARE introduced when someone is bitten what is saliva but a series of chemicles and particulate matter?
and when did i talk about plants?

Saliva is mostly water, and it really doesn't come in a large enough amount in a bite to affect a body.

[celtwolf]

true
but nonetheless i think it's a bit of a copout to say that we already have all the genes nessecary to become werewolves and ONLY a virus that can ONLY be introduced through an bite of a werewolf, or a blood transfusion from one, can activate them. i think we have a more creative option here.

[white]

Creativity is subjective. This idea makes much more evolutionary sense; plausability is a good thing. I'm not saying it's better; just don't put down other's ideas so readily. The DNA-modifying pseudo-virus idea has been tossed around for ages.

[Lupin]

true
but nonetheless i think it's a bit of a copout to say that we already have all the genes nessecary to become werewolves and ONLY a virus that can ONLY be introduced through an bite of a werewolf, or a blood transfusion from one, can activate them. i think we have a more creative option here.

But it's not saying that second part. It's just saying that usually when a werewolf with the virus bites (or sneezes on, or whatever) a human, the werewolf infects the human, and the human becomes a werewolf. It doesn't say anything about any other methods of becoming a lycanthrope. Eating sufficent quantites of Mentha Piperita might also be enough to trigger the genes in some people. It's just that we were talking about bitten werewolves at the time.

[celtwolf]

okay.
it's just that i don't like the simple virus trigger theory.

[Apokryltaros]

but chemicals ARE introduced when someone is bitten what is saliva but a series of chemicles and particulate matter?
and when did i talk about plants?

Saliva is mostly water, and it really doesn't come in a large enough amount in a bite to affect a body.

I wouldn't say that...
Lizards, particularly the Komodo Dragon, have toxic saliva.
The Komodo Dragon apparently uses a combination of toxic saliva AND bacteria to help bring down its prey...
Along with massive damage inflicted by the initial bite.

[Figarou]

but chemicals ARE introduced when someone is bitten what is saliva but a series of chemicles and particulate matter?
and when did i talk about plants?

Saliva is mostly water, and it really doesn't come in a large enough amount in a bite to affect a body.

I wouldn't say that...
Lizards, particularly the Komodo Dragon, have toxic saliva.
The Komodo Dragon apparently uses a combination of toxic saliva AND bacteria to help bring down its prey...
Along with massive damage inflicted by the initial bite.

There is one mammal that has "toxic saliva."


The Shrew

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/critter/8242shrews.html

[Apokryltaros]

You'd want toxic saliva to make eating easier, too, if you had to eat your own body weight in flesh every three hours, or starve to death.

[Lupin]

I wouldn't say that...
Lizards, particularly the Komodo Dragon, have toxic saliva.
The Komodo Dragon apparently uses a combination of toxic saliva AND bacteria to help bring down its prey...
Along with massive damage inflicted by the initial bite.

Well saliva and venom aren't really the same thing, though the glands that produce venom are related to the ones that produce saliva. And from what I've read the Komodo dragon isn't venomous, it's just that the bacteria in its saliva are just that numerous/virulent.

[Ultraken]

I've read the Komodo dragon isn't venomous, it's just that the bacteria in its saliva are just that numerous/virulent.

Its serrated teeth trap septic bacteria, and its prey succumbs to an overwhelming blood infection even if it manages to escape. (A Discovery Channel documentary about Tyrannosaurus Rex pointed out that T-Rex teeth have similar serrations, and would likely have a similar effect on its prey.)

[Apokryltaros]

I've read the Komodo dragon isn't venomous, it's just that the bacteria in its saliva are just that numerous/virulent.

Its serrated teeth trap septic bacteria, and its prey succumbs to an overwhelming blood infection even if it manages to escape. (A Discovery Channel documentary about Tyrannosaurus Rex pointed out that T-Rex teeth have similar serrations, and would likely have a similar effect on its prey.)

No, (very) recent studies have shown that lizards are indeed venomous, in that, millions of years ago, a gene for the manufacture of bile was copied and accidently spliced into one of the genes for the manufacture of saliva. With primitive lizards, like iguanas, the salivary glands in the lower and upper jaws produce venom, while in more advanced lizards, like monitor lizards, and especially the gila monster, in the lower jaw only.
In the majority of lizards, the venom is heavily diluted by saliva. It was only in some snakes (ie, vipers and cobras and friends) that they developed a method of injecting venom into prey without diluting it too much.
One more thing, as far as scientists know now, the Komodo Dragon's bite is deadly on account of the bacteria (a virulent strain of Staphylococcus aureus), its powerful jaws, AND venom.

[Ultraken]

Huh. You learn something every day.

"Now you know, and knowing is half the battle."

[Apokryltaros]

Huh. You learn something every day.

"Now you know, and knowing is half the battle."

Oh, and the Komodo Dragon's teeth don't trap the bacteria, the teeth are held against the gums, which are sheath-like, so that when the 'Dragon bites down, its teeth scrape against its own gums, so that it can bleed into the wounds it makes in its prey, as the killer bacteria are symbiotes in its own bloodstream.

[celtwolf]

eeeeew, just, eeeeew

[Scott Gardener]

Not all viruses destroy their host cells when reproducing. Besides, the virus-like vector that transmits lycanthropy is ultimately something of its own thing, very likely something that would have to be given its own taxonomic distinction at a very basic level, perhaps "Kingdom Therianthropa," assuming it counted as a biological organism. (I expect it would, as a certain degree of metabolic activity would be needed to maintain the multiple chromosomes worth of information to pull it off. A werewolf would then be considered a symbiosis of a human and the virus-like agent.)

[Leighlia]

There is no other "virus" out ther that has sych a mutative quality is there? So why do we expect it to act as every other virus out there? I use the term virus loosely, not having anything else. It would be in a glass all by itself, wouldn't it?

Actually, I have to believe that this is being over-analyzed which kinda destroys the mysticism behind the phenomena. I personally don't care how it happens on a cellular level...as long as it doesn't kill me in the process.