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Mmmm ...

While writing my story and seeing some of Goldenwolfs works of the werewolves with manes I thought that a werewolf in Gestaltform with Dreadlocks would look pretty cool - but then I took a step backwards from this idea, cause I couldn't figure out a way for explaining a werewolf in full wolf form with dreads ...

Any ideas how this could work? Could it work at all? What would happen to a newbie werewolf with dreadlocks?

My answer to this question was simply to avoid werewolf-characters with dreadlocks. Instead of this I created a werelion with dreadlocks

I would like to hear some opinions about this idea. Any comments?

Morkulv wrote:

Lupin wrote:

Figarou wrote:Hmmm...the skin more elastic in the neck area. You know,,so the mother wolf can carry the cubs. How will something like that look on a werewolf in Gestalt form?

That dissappears on adult animals.

At least on mammals, yes.

[picky] Erm, actually, it doesn't disappear. My cat still has it, so do my dogs, my neighbor's dogs, and every other animal I know that could be carried like that as a baby. Don't make me break out the pictures. [/picky]

Dreadlocks on werewolves: I'd think that if someone with dreads became a werewolf the fur on their head and neck in full wolf form (and maybe even gestalt) would look extremely matted down. It would have that neglected dog look. For this reason I could see a werewolf eventually either just cutting off their dreads or attempting to un-matt them. (All they are is tangled hair anyway...)

Set wrote:

Morkulv wrote:

Lupin wrote:

Figarou wrote:Hmmm...the skin more elastic in the neck area. You know,,so the mother wolf can carry the cubs. How will something like that look on a werewolf in Gestalt form?

That dissappears on adult animals.

At least on mammals, yes.

[picky] Erm, actually, it doesn't disappear. My cat still has it, so do my dogs, my neighbor's dogs, and every other animal I know that could be carried like that as a baby. Don't make me break out the pictures. [/picky]

While there is a small flap of skin there, it's nowhere near as large as it is when they were younger, and it's not something that can be used to pick them up.

Hmm. My animals must be freaks of nature then, because on my cat it's still a substantial amount of skin and it doesn't hurt her at all to pick her up like that. Nor does it seem to hurt the dogs. (They're a toy breed though.)

It still depends on the dog-race. Every dog-race has it own quality's, and it would be a good explanation that your dog's race do have some more amount of skin there.

Edit: Oh, like you said.

Yeah, we can easily pick up our adult chihuahuas by the neck skin.

Hell, I can even pick my brother up by the neck.

Huhuhuuhhhuhuh!.....

O...

Well it depends on how their body completion is. If computer or like the werewolf on Van Helsing the hair on that looks good.

If there costumes like Underworld. Well I like that also. The mane going down the spine looks good too. Depends on how they are. The mane looks good so does the hair.

Y'know. Now that you mention it, I'm trying to wrap my mind around why a werewolf (of all things) would go in bigtime for body decorations and other cosmetics - you sure wouldn't expect a wolf to do such a thing. Tribal markings? - but they're empaths, they shouldn't need artificial markngs any more than a wolf would. Would vanity even be a Were trait?

WolfVanZandt wrote:Y'know. Now that you mention it, I'm trying to wrap my mind around why a werewolf (of all things) would go in bigtime for body decorations and other cosmetics - you sure wouldn't expect a wolf to do such a thing. Tribal markings? - but they're empaths, they shouldn't need artificial markngs any more than a wolf would. Would vanity even be a Were trait?

Werecreatures are people too, so I expect that they'd go for some sort of decoration--and for much the same reason normal people do.

Boy! That seems more convoluted than I would have thought. For instance, are wolves "people". If not, why? And if so, those normal people don't seem too interested in body ornamentation. So why would Werewolves lean in the Human direction rather than the Wolf direction on this?

In fact, why do Humans go in for body decorations while Wolves don't?

WolfVanZandt wrote:Boy! That seems more convoluted than I would have thought. For instance, are wolves "people". If not, why? And if so, those normal people don't seem too interested in body ornamentation. So why would Werewolves lean in the Human direction rather than the Wolf direction on this?

In fact, why do Humans go in for body decorations while Wolves don't?

You're asking alot of debatable questions there.

IMHO...

I think that animals like wolves are right on the border line between what IS or is NOT a "person". I would define a "Person" as a creature that is aware of the concept of "SELF". "I think therefore I am". I know that a wolf thinks, and that it is aware of it's surroundings, but does it ever ponder what or who itself is? I think that any animal that can understand the concept of "Self" and is aware of itself would just barely meet the definition of a "Person."

As for why a wolf does or does not have interest in body ornamentation, that question once again leads back to the idea of "Self". Is a Wolf even aware of whether it is beautiful or ugly? They don't commonly look into mirrors, (though they can see reflections in bodies of water), so it is doubtful the idea ever crosses thier mind. If a wolf were to be wary enough of the concept of "self" to notice that it is less attractive to other wolves (of the opposite gender perhaps?) when it is dirty or mangy, then it might take the trouble to wash itself before encountering others for this purpose. (pure speculation, of course).

The fact of the matter is, of course, that though it may be debatable whether a ferral wolf is even aware of the idea of personal beauty, a Werewolf (being at least half, if not mostly human) is FULLY aware of this idea, and living in a world full of humans, has surely been influenced by the common beliefs and trends of those around them.



Why do humans like to decorate themselves? Good question.




I think it really just comes down to "self" again. We ARE aware of our own beauty (and/or lack of). We realise that it is more pleasant to be seen as attractive or beautiful by others. Therefore, in the interest of increasing the joy in our lives, we seek to make ourselves more beautiful by any means we can come up with. (Be that simply keeping ourselves clean and well groomed, or ADDING features to ourselves such as brightly colored clothing, earings, necklaces, tattoos, makeup, and so forth.)

A werewolf, being aware of these concepts, and also being like any other concious living creature, (desiring more JOY), would be just as likely to desire to make itself more beautiful or in any other way attractive as a human would.

...and if the person was BORN human and was later bitten, then I think this point would be completely Mute anyway. Jane would still be Jane after being bitten by a werwolf, and if she liked bracelets and earings and braided hair before, she likely would still like them after becoming a werewolf. ..because Werewolf or not...she's still Jane.

...again...IMHO.

WolfVanZandt wrote:Boy! That seems more convoluted than I would have thought. For instance, are wolves "people".

IMO, nope.

WolfVanZandt wrote:If not, why?

This depends on what you thinks constitutes 'people'. Based on my thoughts about what makes a person a person, wolves (and all other animals besides humans) aren't people. I will post more on this later.

WolfVanZandt wrote:So why would Werewolves lean in the Human direction rather than the Wolf direction on this?

Because werewolves are humans who have the power to turn into wolflike creatures. They are not wolves who can become humans. Whatever state their body is in, their mind will always be more human (unless they go ferral).

WolfVanZandt wrote:In fact, why do Humans go in for body decorations while Wolves don't?

Most body decorations came about for the purpose of attracting the opposite sex. Humans are attracted to one another mainly by visual cues. Wolves, however, mainly use smell. A prettier wolf isn't going to have any more chance of mating than an ugly wolf, if the ugly wolf has a better scent. This is, IMO, why we use body decorations and they don't. Some animals use very rudimentary body decoration techniques. Nothing as advanced as us, though.

Renorei wrote:

WolfVanZandt wrote:So why would Werewolves lean in the Human direction rather than the Wolf direction on this?

Because werewolves are humans who have the power to turn into wolflike creatures. They are not wolves who can become humans. Whatever state their body is in, their mind will always be more human (unless they go ferral).

Can I get a "amen"?!

Renorei wrote:

WolfVanZandt wrote:So why would Werewolves lean in the Human direction rather than the Wolf direction on this?

Because werewolves are humans who have the power to turn into wolflike creatures. They are not wolves who can become humans. Whatever state their body is in, their mind will always be more human (unless they go ferral).

Agreed.

Good posts.

But I wonder if a Werewolf like the one in Howling Mad (a wolf bitten by a Werewolf) would develop the aesthetic sense of body ornamentation.

Parallel question - maybe relevant - is there any valid reason to believe that wolves don't have as completely a developed sense of self as a Human being?

WolfVanZandt wrote:is there any valid reason to believe that wolves don't have as completely a developed sense of self as a Human being?

Their sense of self is very unlikely to be the same, but we'll probably never know for sure. I seriously doubt they have our capability for self-reflection. Wolves certainly have at least some sense of self--hunger, pain, pleasure, emotions--but likely not the capability of mentally modeling the self and others. They are sentient but not sapient. (But then, they work just fine that way.)

WolfVanZandt wrote:Parallel question - maybe relevant - is there any valid reason to believe that wolves don't have as completely a developed sense of self as a Human being?

A difficult question to answer without being able to ASK a wolf and find out.

Based on my own observation of my own dogs behaviors and intelligence, I find it highly likely that a Canine brain is at least capable of understanding the concept. However...I am also capable of understanding advanced quantum physics...but that does not mean I ever will.

I think it is well within the realm of practical possibility that a Wolf could develop a full "Personality"...but can not say with absolute certainty that all, or any wolves ever have.

...I don't know...but I would like to think so.
(I know I percieve my beloved dogs as 'People' at least...but that could just be 'projection')

Note that dogs, suffereing from hundreds if not thousands of years of inbreeding, aren't the best example.

To that question, I'd say simply "No.". There's simply no way to tell. They could be orders of magnatude more intelligent, and have very good reasons for not having anything like technology.

My queston, Ultraken, was whether there is any valid reason to believe that wolves do not have as highly a developed sense of self as Humans. I'm certainly aware that many Humans do not believe that they do but that's rather irrelevant to my question.

And, Ralith, you're right. Dogs, being neotenous versions of wolves, are not representative of wolves.

Wait. Let me try a much weaker version of the same question: Is there any reason at all to even suspect that wolves do not have at least as highly developed a sense of self as Humans? I can think of only one study and it's so flawed that I'm amazed that so many psychologists acually take it seriously.

I think the answer would be relevant to the question because, if wolves are self-conscious, then can that be the basis of the desire for body decoration?

I have another theory. And it make me wonder why Werewolves would go in for it. But it might also be the answer.

WolfVanZandt wrote:Wait. Let me try a much weaker version of the same question: Is there any reason at all to even suspect that wolves do not have at least as highly developed a sense of self as Humans? I can think of only one study and it's so flawed that I'm amazed that so many psychologists acually take it seriously.

As far as I know, there is no reason to suspect they don't....but there is even less of no reason to suspect that they do...if that makes any sense. I'm not quite sure if you are separating sense of self and intelligence. Wolves may or may not have as highly developed sense of self as we do, but, they definitely aren't as intelligent.

WolfVanZandt wrote:I think the answer would be relevant to the question because, if wolves are self-conscious, then can that be the basis of the desire for body decoration?

Well...you've kinda just answered your own question, in a way. Because wolves don't have a desire for body decoration, maybe that is evidence to suggest they aren't as self-conscious as we are. But, then again, as I said before, even if a wolf was into any kind of body decoration...it probably wouldn't be a visual thing.

There's also the problem that wolves don't have hands

Renorei, I think that's an important (and very perceptive) answer. I don't mean "there's less reason to believe that they do have self awareness." (Why would that be?). But that ornamentaion, for a wolf might not be visual (or more accurate - symbolic). Perhaps wolves display empathic ornamentation - perhaps they improvise on a form of choreogrpahy.

I wouldn't assume that wolves are even less intelligent (I'm a vocational evaluator - so of course I understand intelligence and self-awareness). The problem is that wolve's intelligence is apples to the Human oranges. They may not be less intelligent - only "alien". THey do very well in harsh environments with very little - most humans are not that "intelligent".

I will say two very fundamental ways in which wolves differ from humans mentally - they have no hands so they ve no need for manual cognition - and they are nonverbal. They don't use and probably don't think in terns of words. I'm not sure that there are any other fundamental differences.

Well a wolf is a animal really relying on senses for survival. Humans or people are more well I can't find the right word to put it, but we have technology to help us to survive.

So with technology we don't have to worry about getting food because we just go down the road to a food mart because of that we worry about more things in life then animals such as wolves.