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I think the "no shifting for 9 months" theory makes more sense. Not just that it's not recommended for the woman to shift, but the ability would completely shut down until she gives birth. It's probably as good an indicator of pregnancy as anything too. I mean the baby could probably shift along with the mother, but a baby just seems far too fragile for that. It's one thing for an adult to change since most of us are pretty well solidly put together at that stage in life, but babies are full of bones and such that aren't fused to make a complete form and they don't quite have a set place until later.

When an adult shifts, I sort of picture it as simply bending it into another form, and changing back is simply (or probably not quite so simply as that) bending back. But for a baby to shift, because bones aren't completely formed yet and are sometimes just soft cartilage that don't become bone until later, it's more like rearranging a room and then later rearranging it again but this time trying to put everything back in the exact same position as it was before. You could probably get close, but a limb is going to be twisted in a direction it's not supposed to, the skull might be crushed from when the baby's change and the mother's change didn't correspond like a hand in a glove as much as one might anticipate. A mother can change her position to more accomodate her new form, but a baby is more likely to get literally bent out of shape in the process.

What's most likely to happen is that the soon-to-be mother would be stuck in whatever shape she's in when the pregnancy hormones start getting pumped out. It'd be like when her period stops, except a bit more apparent. She can give birth in a human, gestalt, or full wolf form, but no changing between during pregnancy.

CrewWolf wrote:I think the "no shifting for 9 months" theory makes more sense.

It does.

But does it have to be 9 months? Would a werewolf fetus develop faster than a normal human fetus?

Figarou wrote:

CrewWolf wrote:I think the "no shifting for 9 months" theory makes more sense.

It does.

But does it have to be 9 months? Would a werewolf fetus develop faster than a normal human fetus?

Well, Figarou, if the feotus matured more quickly, does that not also suggest that it might age more rapidly also ?

Something to be considered.

Figarou wrote:

CrewWolf wrote:I think the "no shifting for 9 months" theory makes more sense.

It does.

But does it have to be 9 months? Would a werewolf fetus develop faster than a normal human fetus?

According to my theory, I guess it would depend on what shape the mother's in. As human, the fetus would develop at the rate an average human would. As a wolf, the fetus would develop as a wolf would. Gestalt....some sort of combination of the two? Gestation longer than a normal wolf's but slightly shorter than an average human's. I'm not entirely sure just what the differences in development would be since I didn't pay much attention in biology, but simply considering development time, I think it'd depend on whether the pup would be smaller or larger than a human baby, and I'm leaning towards slightly smaller. I think a newborn would look more puppy-like than human baby, but it'd be too large and plump (gosh I hate saying that) to be a puppy, its fur would be very thin, showing the pink baby skin fairly clearly, and the long grabbing digits couldn't be mistaken for paws under scrutiny. That's how I'd picture it at least.

So anyway, I don't know, 5 months? 6 months?

Well, there is this to consider. If the mother completes the pregnancy in the form of a wolf, she will almost have to give birth to a baby with a wolf anatomy.

Why ? THe problem is the human head. Humans even as infants and newborns have huge heads. The hardest portion of human anatomy to birth, tends to be the head.

Canines have very narrow hips as compared to humans. This would be a very serious issue. For a canid, a long narrow head will be much easier to birth, than a large round human one which might even be impossible.

garouda wrote:

Figarou wrote:

CrewWolf wrote:I think the "no shifting for 9 months" theory makes more sense.

It does.

But does it have to be 9 months? Would a werewolf fetus develop faster than a normal human fetus?

Well, Figarou, if the feotus matured more quickly, does that not also suggest that it might age more rapidly also ?

Something to be considered.

The way I see it, the werewolf fetus develops faster so the mother doesn't have to stay stuck in one form for a long period of time.


But still lives longer than a normal human due to increased regeneration.

While that is a bit of a dichotomy, I do kind of like its implications. And it does improve survivability for the mother.

You know. I think the way kangaroos handle pregnancy is geared towards the survival of the mother under adverse conditions. I.E. the pregnancy aborts so the mother may survive to try again.

garouda wrote:I think the way kangaroos handle pregnancy is geared towards the survival of the mother under adverse conditions. I.E. the pregnancy aborts so the mother may survive to try again.

...And how do you figure that?

Kangaroos give birth to a baby that's only the size of a jelly bean. She licks a trail on her fur to her pouch which the joey crawls into. It develops further from there. There is absolutely no "aborting" once this happens, a mother can't have her body kill a baby that's no longer connected to her. Kangaroos have a relatively easy time compared to other mothers.

In other words I don't get the kangaroo reference and am wondering what in hell it has to do with werewolves.

Set wrote:

garouda wrote:I think the way kangaroos handle pregnancy is geared towards the survival of the mother under adverse conditions. I.E. the pregnancy aborts so the mother may survive to try again.

...And how do you figure that?

Kangaroos give birth to a baby that's only the size of a jelly bean. She licks a trail on her fur to her pouch which the joey crawls into. It develops further from there. There is absolutely no "aborting" once this happens, a mother can't have her body kill a baby that's no longer connected to her. Kangaroos have a relatively easy time compared to other mothers.

In other words I don't get the kangaroo reference and am wondering what in hell it has to do with werewolves.

Well, it has been a while since I read up on this and I may misremember suspension of pregnancy for abortion of same, but one can get a small start here:

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/refere ... c_diapause

The main reason I bring up specific non wolf items is only to show that in real living biosystems some pretty amazing technigues have evolved for survival. And even if it is only tangentially relevant, I thought I would mention it..

There may be more information re various species and the regulation of pregnancy during adverse conditions.

Knowledge is power.

edit for syntax on 1 March 2006

Set wrote:

garouda wrote:I think the way kangaroos handle pregnancy is geared towards the survival of the mother under adverse conditions. I.E. the pregnancy aborts so the mother may survive to try again.

...And how do you figure that?

Kangaroos give birth to a baby that's only the size of a jelly bean. She licks a trail on her fur to her pouch which the joey crawls into. It develops further from there. There is absolutely no "aborting" once this happens, a mother can't have her body kill a baby that's no longer connected to her. Kangaroos have a relatively easy time compared to other mothers.

In other words I don't get the kangaroo reference and am wondering what in hell it has to do with werewolves.

Well, with kangaroos, if circumstances take a turn for the worst, ie, a bad drought, or being brought to bay by hunting dogs, etc, the mother can always force the joey out of the pouch and scoot.

Baby shifts with the mother. Pretty simple.

Renorei wrote:Baby shifts with the mother. Pretty simple.

What if the mother was having twins? Or maybe triplets?

Hmmm?

Is everybody going to be shifting?

Tbg simple and will go around all the problems you mentioned Figarou. If the Mother and Father were to have intercourse while in Gestalt form, then the baby will be given birth in gestalt form, if they were both in human form then then the baby will be in human form. There simple as that.

Shadow Wulf wrote:Tbg simple and will go around all the problems you mentioned Figarou. If the Mother and Father were to have intercourse while in Gestalt form, then the baby will be given birth in gestalt form, if they were both in human form then then the baby will be in human form. There simple as that.

Huh?

I was talking about when the twins or triplets are still in the womb. If the mother shifts, are they all going to shift?


I still think it sounds silly.

Oh I wasnt reffering to that. But in anycase the comment I mentioned will probably solve that too.

Figarou wrote:

Renorei wrote:Baby shifts with the mother. Pretty simple.

What if the mother was having twins? Or maybe triplets?

Hmmm?

Is everybody going to be shifting?

Why go through this speculation at all? Why not just say werewolves are completely sterile?

Set wrote: Why go through this speculation at all? Why not just say werewolves are completely sterile?

Why don't you take it one step further.

No gender.

So, then they would all be a race of mules ....

We could call them Jacks and Jennies ..........

erm, maybe not.

In a book I'm reading, female werewolves couldn't give birth at all since they'd abort the baby during the full moon when they changed. The only way to have a child was with a human female, and the baby would be fully human, no werewolf abilities that is.

I didn't really like the idea though

Renorei wrote:Baby shifts with the mother. Pretty simple.

Why would the baby shift?

That just sounds dangerous for a creature that is not even fully formed yet. ...and that also raises the question, "why don't they just 'SHIFT' into a fully devoloped baby and be born instantly, if they are capable of rapid physical development anyway?".



My opinion...baby develops in a single form (maybe in 7-months instead of 9). No switching between human and gestalt/wolf mid-gestation.

...maybe the child would develop as a gestalt hybrid fetus, but it would stay in only that form throughout the pregnancy, regardless of what the mother does, and then would slowly take on the appearance of a normal human in the weeks after it's birth. ...or just be born human and not have unusual physiology at all durring gestation.

I still stand by the idea that a pregnant woman would be strongly ill-advised to shift while carrying unborn children, but am undecided on whether they would be completely unable.

A baby born in the gestalt form would be a very unique looking offspring, and thus a major liability to the WW parents.

A baby born either as a human baby, or a wolf pup, would not stand out nearly as much.

If as someone suggested, the female would have to maintain whichever form she was in when the pregnancy was conceived. and the child would be born in the same form, at least that would obviate shifting issues duing pregnancy.

If the female however became stuck in canid form for the duration of the pregnancy, there would be a whole set of new issues. There might be a lot of explaining of just where her 'human self' has gotten off to for all those months. That could be quite awkward.

Figarou wrote:

Renorei wrote:Baby shifts with the mother. Pretty simple.

What if the mother was having twins? Or maybe triplets?

Hmmm?

Is everybody going to be shifting?

Yes.

Renorei wrote:

Figarou wrote:

Renorei wrote:Baby shifts with the mother. Pretty simple.

What if the mother was having twins? Or maybe triplets?

Hmmm?

Is everybody going to be shifting?

Yes.

why wouldn't it just be easier if the mother didn't shift at all during the period of pregnancy

Fenrir wrote:

Renorei wrote:

Figarou wrote:

Renorei wrote:Baby shifts with the mother. Pretty simple.

What if the mother was having twins? Or maybe triplets?

Hmmm?

Is everybody going to be shifting?

Yes.

why wouldn't it just be easier if the mother didn't shift at all during the period of pregnancy

I can see how that might make a tiny bit more sense, but I don't see how it makes it 'easier'. If anything, I think it makes it more complicated.

Renorei wrote:

Fenrir wrote:

Renorei wrote:

Figarou wrote:

Renorei wrote:Baby shifts with the mother. Pretty simple.

What if the mother was having twins? Or maybe triplets?

Hmmm?

Is everybody going to be shifting?

Yes.

why wouldn't it just be easier if the mother didn't shift at all during the period of pregnancy

I can see how that might make a tiny bit more sense, but I don't see how it makes it 'easier'. If anything, I think it makes it more complicated.

My personal preference is similar to Renorei's.

There is an element of magic to what makes a werewolf what it is.

And having the shifting 'magically' carry the unborn young along allows the WW to get along with its life without getting bogged down.

In the end, it is arbitrary anyway. The writer gets to choose.