THE PACK Message Boards

Alpha wrote:...and you remember what happened to that dog in Cursed.

Unfortunately.

Apokryltaros wrote:You know, if you're just going to dismiss what any of us are trying to explain by saying "I don't want to understand it because I think that no one has the right answer" because you don't care to learn about science OR religion, then, could you do all of us a favor and just stop enticing us to try and correct you whenever you say "I think science/evolution is wrong."
I find it to be infinitely aggravating to have to waste my time trying to explain scientific thought to a person who turns out to be as deathly allergic to scientific thinking as I am to penicillin.
I mean, do you enjoy making us precious waste our time trying to explain things, only for you to win your arguments by saying, "well, I don't care what you or other people think because I don't care, and that's what counts"?

Scott Gardener wrote:I came in late on this one, but thankfully Apokryltaros has already beaten me to the punch on the science arguments. So, I'll just ditto for the moment.

I don't think it matters.

Thats excactly why I don't have any kind of religion. There are some things that can't be explained, and evolution is one of those things.

Thats why I hate it when people dismiss the possibility that werewolves, ghosts, or other paranormal things can exist. And the funny thing is, its excactly the same story, but then with a different subject, but only this time people like you DO believe it because it was researched by scientists. And I don't want to be a part of those hypocrit people. Sorry.

And if you think you are wasting time on me, why even bother posting?

Because I'm moronic enough to think that I can try and teach you something, nevermind that I'm blind to the fact that you don't want to learn anything.

Renorei wrote:And yes, I agree with Vuldari's theory (as a side note, it's not 'his' theory. Scientists have been putting forth ideas just like that for years. Vuldari didn't invent that idea...he's just relaying it to us).

Thank you Renorei. I was not claiming to have concluded this theory myself. I was just sharing that the thoery in red is no longer considered valid, and that the second theory is the one which currently considered to be the most likely accurate one by the vast majority of the scientific community today. The CURRENT majority accepted Evolutionary-Theory.

Of course, since no one was taking notes back then, we can not know for Certain if that was how it really happened. However, based on the evidence we have found, this appears to be the most logical conclusion.
(Unless more significant contrary evidence is found...at which point the 'Theory' would be appropriately updated, as it was when the "Missing Link" theory was Scrapped.)

As for DNA...to my understanding, though we are learning more every year, and have been able to map much (or all) of it out for human beings, scientists currently still have a very poor understanding of how it actually works. Our genetic similarity to yeast (for example) is indeed quite perplexing, and the way I see it, it is a big red flag that says to us, "there is still much more to this puzzle than we are aware of yet. There is much yet to learn."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Back on topic...

The example of the dog in "Cursed" I think is a good point. I am slightly torn on the subject because of that. On the one hand, it seems logical to me that it would do Something to a wolf, and likely also to genetically similar dogs, but on the other hand, what happened to that dog just seemed so WRONG when I saw it on screen, even though it was technically similar to what I described might happen to a wolf.

I have to say that, I'm just not sure. It seems to me that, if the "Wolf" in WereWolf is in fact somehow dirrectly related to actual Wolves, then it seems higly improbable to me that it could possibly NOT have any effect on wolves...seeing as, if true wolf DNA is involved, then it must have started with wolves to begin with at some point.

All I can say for certain about my opinion at this point is that I think it would be possible for a ferral wolf to be "host" to Lycanthropy* (*whatever is is...virus, or something else), and that it would have a distinctly different effect on a ferral Wolf, vs. a Human, assuming that it's effect would even be readily apparent at all, (vs. leaving no significant, noticable physical or behavioral marks on the Host Wolf).

Magical Lycanthropy: I could possibly see lycanthropy affecting regular wolves, but it would effect every other living animal too... (or at least mammal). Though, usually if its magical, its a curse of some kind, and is specifically targeted to a person, group of people or humanity in general.

Viral Lycanthropy: I would imagine that a virus would have to have evolved/ been engineered specifically to interact with human DNA. From what little i know about it, dispite the massive level of similarities between the DNA of different living things, it is still extreamly complicated, and having just one or two genes out of whack can cause serious problems. So, i think it would be extreamly difficult (but not impossible) to engineer a virus that would be able to alter the DNA of multiple types of organisms successfully. However, it wouldn't be difficult at all for wolves, or any other animal, to be carriers of a lycanthropy virus.

Vuldari wrote:All I can say for certain about my opinion at this point is that I think it would be possible for a ferral wolf to be "host" to Lycanthropy* (*whatever is is...virus, or something else), and that it would have a distinctly different effect on a ferral Wolf, vs. a Human, assuming that it's effect would even be readily apparent at all, (vs. leaving no significant, noticable physical or behavioral marks on the Host Wolf).

And then again, maybe it would depend on the wolf itself. Like us, they're all individuals. Maybe some would be affected, while others aren't. A good analogy would be the aids virus. Some people succumb fairly quickly to the disease after acquiring it, while others exibit no symptoms and live a long time in apparently good health.

Wolfess wrote:OK, everyone has agreed that when a werewolf bites a human, the human gets infected and becomes a werewolf himself. BUT... What the hell happens when a werewolf bites a wolf? Does the infection work both ways or only on humans?

Ok...let me add a bit more to that question.


Human is bit. He/she becomes a werewolf. With control, he/she can assume the wolf form.


Okaaaaayy.... if a wolf is bitten by a werewolf, can the wolf take on the human form?

Figarou wrote:

Wolfess wrote:OK, everyone has agreed that when a werewolf bites a human, the human gets infected and becomes a werewolf himself. BUT... What the hell happens when a werewolf bites a wolf? Does the infection work both ways or only on humans?

Ok...let me add a bit more to that question.


Human is bit. He/she becomes a werewolf. With control, he/she can assume the wolf form.


Okaaaaayy.... if a wolf is bitten by a werewolf, can the wolf take on the human form?

I'm confused Isn't this the same question?

Alpha wrote:
I'm confused Isn't this the same question?

Same question? Hmmmm.......It could be me thats confused.



Lets use the dog that was bitten in the movie "Cursed" as an example.

Can it assume the human form?

Figarou wrote: Lets use the dog that was bitten in the movie "Cursed" as an example.

Can it assume the human form?

IMO since it wasn't shown, I'd say no. As I'd previously stated, I feel that any morphological changes in the canid (wolf or dog) would be minor as when compared to what would happen in a person. The most that I see happening is what was shown in the movie... scarier looking, longer fangs, excessive salivation, elevated aggression.

Alpha wrote:

Figarou wrote: Lets use the dog that was bitten in the movie "Cursed" as an example.

Can it assume the human form?

IMO since it wasn't shown, I'd say no. As I'd previously stated, I feel that any morphological changes in the canid (wolf or dog) would be minor as when compared to what would happen in a person. The most that I see happening is what was shown in the movie... scarier looking, longer fangs, excessive salivation, elevated aggression.

Does intelligence play a key factor in this? Since the dog lacked human intelligence, it doesn't know about the form or how to assume it, correct?

Timber-WoIf wrote:Magical Lycanthropy: I could possibly see lycanthropy affecting regular wolves, but it would effect every other living animal too... (or at least mammal). Though, usually if its magical, its a curse of some kind, and is specifically targeted to a person, group of people or humanity in general.

Viral Lycanthropy: I would imagine that a virus would have to have evolved/ been engineered specifically to interact with human DNA. From what little i know about it, dispite the massive level of similarities between the DNA of different living things, it is still extreamly complicated, and having just one or two genes out of whack can cause serious problems. So, i think it would be extreamly difficult (but not impossible) to engineer a virus that would be able to alter the DNA of multiple types of organisms successfully. However, it wouldn't be difficult at all for wolves, or any other animal, to be carriers of a lycanthropy virus.

Timber-Wolf, has stated the most cogent and intelligent argument vis-a-vis viral infection versus magical. We MUST really consider the difference between a virus which is JUST AN ILLNESS and one whose affect is to completely rewrite the code and design of a living being. The first requires relatively little code, while the latter requires a lot of target specific genetic coding to accomplish what it does.

Figarou wrote:Does intelligence play a key factor in this? Since the dog lacked human intelligence, it doesn't know about the form or how to assume it, correct?

I doubt it. Intelligence level is most likely irrelevent. Take a newly afflicted person for example. After being bitten, he or she can be totally ignorant about werewolves and the werewolf form. Yet when the virus kicks in, the change would happen regardless. It would be an involuntary thing. I assume that it would be the same for a dog.

Figarou wrote:Okaaaaayy.... if a wolf is bitten by a werewolf, can the wolf take on the human form?

As I allready have discussed in my previous posts.

I don't think so. IMHO

I wrote:Yeah...I agree. Likely nothing would happen. ...or it would kill the wolf.

The impression I've been getting is that Lycanthropy "Add"s the wolf part to the human. ...there is no "human" in lycanthropy, so it would not give a wolf the ability to transform into a human or anything like that.

...

Ferral wolves could possibly become "Carriers" of Lycanthropy, thus making it possible to become a werewolf after being bitten by a ferral wolf, if it was infected.

...but I don't think biting a wolf would turn it into a "Wolf-Were" or anything like that.

IMHO

Apokryltaros wrote:Because I'm moronic enough to think that I can try and teach you something, nevermind that I'm blind to the fact that you don't want to learn anything.

I'm not a small child, in case you didn't notice. And furthermore, you are not 'teaching' anything, you are just trying to convince me into your wrong hypocrite story's. I can be very openminded, but when it comes to evolution and the whole 'ape'-story I can be very stubbern.

Morkulv wrote:And furthermore, you are not 'teaching' anything, you are just trying to convince me into your wrong hypocrite story's.

The theory that Apokryltaros shared with you about evolution is, in all likelihood, neither 'wrong', nor 'hypocritical', nor a 'story'. Sure, it does leave a few questions unanswered, but it answers more questions than any other reputable theory answers. And, probably before our lives are over, scientists will have found the answers to even more questions.

Ultimately, you can believe what you want, but it's hardly fair for you to call the most likely story of how man came to be wrong or hypocritical, particularly when you have nothing logical to offer in its stead.

I am not trying to be mean. And, frankly, I think this whole argument is on its way to getting a little out of hand. I hope that it doesn't, but I think we are all, to varying degrees, feeding the fire.

Morkulv wrote:And furthermore, you are not 'teaching' anything, you are just trying to convince me into your wrong hypocrite story's.

That's the thing about science, he doesn't have to convince you of anything. If the theory is correct, you can go out and preform the same expirements yourself and you'll get the same results. In fact, this is why we call the theory a 'theory' and not a 'hypothesis'. The empirical evidence matches the predictions of the theory. Until you come up with a theory that explains things that it doesn't, and all the things that it does, you have no right to call it 'wrong'.

Figarou wrote:Okaaaaayy.... if a wolf is bitten by a werewolf, can the wolf take on the human form?

I'd say that that's still the same question. Shifting comes with the infection, and being able to take human form comes with shifting.

Lupin wrote:

Morkulv wrote:And furthermore, you are not 'teaching' anything, you are just trying to convince me into your wrong hypocrite story's.

That's the thing about science, he doesn't have to convince you of anything. If the theory is correct, you can go out and preform the same expirements yourself and you'll get the same results. In fact, this is why we call the theory a 'theory' and not a 'hypothesis'. The empirical evidence matches the predictions of the theory. Until you come up with a theory that explains things that it doesn't, and all the things that it does, you have no right to call it 'wrong'.

What does he care about empirical evidence or science?
He says that all scientists since time began are worthless hypocrites, as, after all, they're just people like you and me, and you can't trust what people say. How do we know if what they saw with their own eyes is real?
There's no proof that it could have been a trick to fool them, you know.
...
While I guess I got what I deserved for stupidly trying to reason with someone who's too arrogantly wrapped up in his own ignorance to understand even elementary school science concepts, I can't help but feel insulted by being called a liar and a hypocrite for explaining why ape and human DNA are different.

Lupin wrote:

Figarou wrote:Okaaaaayy.... if a wolf is bitten by a werewolf, can the wolf take on the human form?

I'd say that that's still the same question. Shifting comes with the infection, and being able to take human form comes with shifting.

Hmmm...wait a second. There is 2 types of shifting, correct?

Controlled and uncontrolled, yes?

Figarou wrote: Hmmm...wait a second. There is 2 types of shifting, correct?

Controlled and uncontrolled, yes?

Not really. They both have the same result. The only difference is in what initiates the shift.

Lupin wrote:

Figarou wrote: Hmmm...wait a second. There is 2 types of shifting, correct?

Controlled and uncontrolled, yes?

Not really. They both have the same result. The only difference is in what initiates the shift.

Okaaaay. I want to know something. In the Freeborn script, Sherri uncontrollably shifted to the wolf form. If I'm not mistaken, she has to learn to take on the gestalt form, correct?


What about the wolf? Does it uncontrollably take the human form? And need to learn the gestalt form? Or does it uncontrollably take the gestalt form and needs to learn the human form?

Figarou wrote:

Lupin wrote:

Figarou wrote: Hmmm...wait a second. There is 2 types of shifting, correct?

Controlled and uncontrolled, yes?

Not really. They both have the same result. The only difference is in what initiates the shift.

Okaaaay. I want to know something. In the Freeborn script, Sherri uncontrollably shifted to the wolf form. If I'm not mistaken, she has to learn to take on the gestalt form, correct?


What about the wolf? Does it uncontrollably take the human form? And need to learn the gestalt form? Or does it uncontrollably take the gestalt form and needs to learn the human form?

Um ? Spoilers Figarou ?

garouda wrote:Um ? Spoilers Figarou ?

Not really. Both of those don't really represent any major plot points that would ruin one's enjoment of the movie.

garouda wrote:
Um ? Spoilers Figarou ?

Speaking of which.

http://calypso-blue.com/werewolf/viewto ... 1117#81117

Figarou wrote:

garouda wrote:
Um ? Spoilers Figarou ?

Speaking of which.

http://calypso-blue.com/werewolf/viewto ... 1117#81117

Ah, well, my bad.

Carry on.