THE PACK Message Boards

I think there's a lot of passion for what people beleive a werewolf should be, to the point people want to defend it. There are so many version of werewolves. Some are built around science, and some make no sense at all beyond the explaination that it's magical. All are legitimate regardless because it's all fiction. Of course the can droll into the argument of if they're real or not, but we have a seperate thread for that.

So rather than anyone get the pretense that they are being shot down for their ideas of werewolves, just simply think... "Does it matter?" There are no facts of any kind to back up anything regarding the subject of werewolves, so nobody can win this in a debate anyways. Hmmm, it seems all I've just done is repeated Wingman's opinion.

To sum up and bury this...

Ookami-kun - First werewolves aren't really weak to anything.

Bloodyredbaron - Since when?

Wingman - Since he decided so.

Even if you take that last statement literally, I see no insult because actually its true. Ookami-kun must have been blunt because he decided it is his favorite way to depict a werewolf. Refuting someone's opinion is never an insult unless it is blatently obvious they are being insulting. Rarely do people insinuate anything indirectly in forum discussions. You were just being paranoid. I am too at times, but I try to re-read posts that come across that way until they become a different context. Saves a lot of trouble. Nobody is mad at you, and nor am I. We just don't want to see you get upset with us.

Back to the main topic, I'd have to say that I like the traditional Silver weakness, much like Kryptonite hurts the invounerable superman and sunlight hurts the invounerable vampires. Werewolves also need a simple weakness that can be played upon in stories, rather than be simply unstoppable.

Don't want to fan the flames or anything, but I don't think it's possible to have an argument-free discussion forum. Still, while everyone is entitled to an opinion, there's a fine line between saying "I prefer werewolves to be this way" or "I think werewolves would be this way because [supporting statements]," and a completely different thing to say "It's a fact" and not follow it up.

The issue, I think, is that Ookami threw out his opinion as if it were a solid fact, one that cannot be questioned and needs no support. It's one thing to have an opinion, but if you're going to throw it out there and expect others to conform to it, you should be prepared to back it up.

I'm of the opinion that werewolves don't need a special weakness to silver, wolf's bane, or anything else, since there's more than the purely physical level to any story.
Even if you removed Superman's vulnerability to Kryptonite, he's still full of weaknesses to exploit, such as his compassion and love. Sure, not many writers are going to make a story where Superman's family is held hostage and his adoptive mother's head is mailed to him in order to get him to comply. But it's certainly possible, and assuming he can't go back in time or anything, or track down everyone involved, he's going to be haunted by the knowledge that anyone he gets close to might get taken and killed because of him. How long do you think he can withstand that, before he gets angry and tears someone in half in the middle of the street for all to see?
What if a government agent came to Superman, asking for aid in bringing some "criminals" to justice, and only later does he discover that he's been tracking down and capturing the good guys, resulting in their death. Word leaks out, and now the world sees Superman as the "monster he always has been.".

This is where limits come into play. Not having special weaknesses doesn't make them all powerful. Humans don't usually have any special advantages or special weaknesses, yet they work perfectly fine as characters. Even the most skilled and deadly of warriors can be a viable character, even without special physical weaknesses. It works for any type of character really. Suppose someone remembers transforming into a wolf, going out, chasing someone down, tearing them to shreds, and eating them. That's perfect nightmare fuel, and assuming they're within the spectrum of "normal" people, it's going to mess them up. Unless the story as a whole is merely wish fulfillment so someone can feel strong, and beautiful, and loved.

Even with a "perfect" werewolf that's strong, fast, beautiful, and can transform whenever they want as easily as blinking, unless they've got a bad personality already, there are plenty of ways they can be exploited. Even if they can't be killed, do you think they'd enjoy being hunted where ever they go, constantly ostracized by the people they want to live with?

For a good example, look at the recent episodes of Heroes. Most of the main characters are good people, they just want to live their life and be safe and happy. Yet, the humans don't understand them, and fear them on the chance that they are dangerous, like the kid who absorbed all the oxygen in his classroom and suffocated his entire class. Even the guy whose power is breathing underwater is being hunted down for containment, study, and probably extermination.

It's very, very easy to set up a do-gooder as a monster, and just about any type of person can be manipulated and toyed with. All it takes would be a single werewolf to snap and go on a rampage, and then the world would have all the proof it needs, that they're dangerous and that they're lurking amongst us.

Sorry to say it, but the whole "werewolves need special weaknesses." smacks of the Stormwind Fallacy.

Wingman wrote:Even if you removed Superman's vulnerability to Kryptonite, he's still full of weaknesses to exploit, such as his compassion and love. Sure, not many writers are going to make a story where Superman's family is held hostage and his adoptive mother's head is mailed to him in order to get him to comply. But it's certainly possible, and assuming he can't go back in time or anything, or track down everyone involved, he's going to be haunted by the knowledge that anyone he gets close to might get taken and killed because of him. How long do you think he can withstand that, before he gets angry and tears someone in half in the middle of the street for all to see?
What if a government agent came to Superman, asking for aid in bringing some "criminals" to justice, and only later does he discover that he's been tracking down and capturing the good guys, resulting in their death. Word leaks out, and now the world sees Superman as the "monster he always has been."

You could also ask what would have happened if "Clark" wasn't adopted by such loving parents, didn't have such a stable childhood, or never believed in "truth, justice and the American way." Superman's run into quite a few fellow survivors of Krypton in his time, the majority of which strongly disagreed with his ideals (to put it gently).

I tend to prefer werewolves etc. in my writing to have physical limitations and weaknesses, however, not so much as an obligation, but because super-powered characters like Superman aren't as easy to write continuously about. What ultimately kills Superman time and time again is the boredom of his viewers. After all, the Superman premises depends on two things: an abundance of super villains, and an incredibly accident-prone Lois Lane (it reached a point in the 90s cartoon where, after introducing herself to a hostage taker, he responds: "Lois Lane?! You mean that chick Superman's always saving?!").

Overpowering a character; giving them super strength, super speed, or super durability, deprives them of any need for wit, resourcefulness or insight (traits which his 100% mortal counterpart, Batman, displays in abundance). Superman doesn't need to duck and cover because whatever anyone is shooting at him will just bounce off of him, doesn't need to find a hiding place because he can fly faster than a speeding bullet, doesn't need to solve one of Jigsaw's puzzle traps because he can tear the whole thing apart.

Best possible example of what can go wrong with a super-powered protagonist: Dragon Ball Z. Eventually Goku and his adversaries got so overpowered that the human race was obliterated and the planet blown up once every other story arc, all just for the sake of keeping it remotely interesting.

Not saying that there's anything wrong with an "uber" character; just that if you do write about one, you're going to have to be prepared to deal with the repetition that all too often kills them. Me personally, I prefer heroes and villains that have to match wits with each other just as often as test their mettle, and I find that to be much easier when they're a little closer down to Earth with the rest of us.

Which goes back to my original stance on silver: It's not a werewolf's kryptonite, but it still holds all of its association with werewolves, and the werewolves aren't exactly keen to let anyone after them know that they don't need it. Like I said earlier in this thread: if somebody is investing in weapons made of silver, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out what they intend to do with them.

Bloodyredbaron wrote:

This is about as light hearted as I get.

As in, I am very heavy hearted.

You might want to see a doctor about that. Cardiac hypertrophy may be a sign of some other disease.

In all respect, why are werewolves allergic to silver? The only time they have been allergic was in the man wolf movie. Aren't vampires allergic to silver as well? That would mean they would have some relation to eachother.

During the Dark Ages, before werewolves were associated with being able to shape shift, silver was thought to have spiritual properties. It could ward off demons, spirits, vampires, and such related things. Crosses made of silver were often worn on necklaces for spiritual protection. Even gold crosses in churches had some silver incorperated into them.

Werewolves previous to the dark ages were not considered evil, but Christianity's newfound discovery and questionable study of demonology listed them as unkind spirits. As such, they were vounerable to the effects of silver. FYI, in demonology silver mostly has a warding effect, not burning and scolding of the demon's flesh.

That does explain that. But I do remember reading from somewhere that if sliver got in their bloodstream, they would die. Originally, that would kill anyone. Plus liquid silver is very hard to create. And once it hits air, it hardens right away. But what if they were allergic?

Kinda like if humans thought they could ward off werewolves way back when by making them allergic to silver, then let them continue. Then they would progress throught the ages, allergic to silver. That was based off a Dr. Who episode. It would make sense it's a psycological thing.

I just saw an episode of The Twilight Zone today that had silver being used to kill witches because of it being a “pure metal.” I think I like the magical explanation of it repelling evil/cursed things more than the explanation than they are allergic to it.

blackwolfhell wrote:That does explain that. But I do remember reading from somewhere that if sliver got in their bloodstream, they would die. Originally, that would kill anyone. Plus liquid silver is very hard to create. And once it hits air, it hardens right away. But what if they were allergic?

*nods* That's why in Underworld the silver nitrate rounds were (I presume) made like airtight containers that would break on contact. The FX team screwed it up with the oozing effect though.

Silver can be equally toxic if inhaled though, so a more effective use (though still a pain in the a** for a blacksmith) might be to grind it into a powder and mix it into a spray or incendiary device. Something like that could be equally as hazardous to the user as the intended target, of course, but then again, so would silver in every other of its forms.

Death by aerosol, nice.

One of the reasons that you can make an aerosol flamethrower (and they aren't new; I did it as a kid, back in the Stone Age*) is the propellant that is used nowadays.
In most cases, it's either Propane or a similar flammable gas. Why? Non-Ozone-Depleting; or so I'm told.
Then, too; most things that get sprayed have some sort of quick-drying solvent in them, which is also quite flammable.
Spray a Werewolf that is threatening you and you set his face on fire. That should discourage him pretty nicely.

*Seriously, I was making Aerosol Flame-Throwers back in the '60's; the Age of the Rolling Stones. Talk about puns...

Terastas wrote:

blackwolfhell wrote:That does explain that. But I do remember reading from somewhere that if sliver got in their bloodstream, they would die. Originally, that would kill anyone. Plus liquid silver is very hard to create. And once it hits air, it hardens right away. But what if they were allergic?

*nods* That's why in Underworld the silver nitrate rounds were (I presume) made like airtight containers that would break on contact. The FX team screwed it up with the oozing effect though.

Silver can be equally toxic if inhaled though, so a more effective use (though still a pain in the a** for a blacksmith) might be to grind it into a powder and mix it into a spray or incendiary device. Something like that could be equally as hazardous to the user as the intended target, of course, but then again, so would silver in every other of its forms.

What about a dart that injects the were with colloidal silver? Burns them from the inside out, and that's what I'm planning for the group of werewolf hunters in my story to use when they're shootign to kill, instead of trying to take them allive so that hey can perform horrible experiments on them.When they take them alive, they use bullets plated with a layer of silver just thick enough to work but not so thick that it's really expensive.

Terastas wrote:

blackwolfhell wrote:That does explain that. But I do remember reading from somewhere that if sliver got in their bloodstream, they would die. Originally, that would kill anyone. Plus liquid silver is very hard to create. And once it hits air, it hardens right away. But what if they were allergic?

*nods* That's why in Underworld the silver nitrate rounds were (I presume) made like airtight containers that would break on contact. The FX team screwed it up with the oozing effect though.

Silver can be equally toxic if inhaled though, so a more effective use (though still a pain in the a** for a blacksmith) might be to grind it into a powder and mix it into a spray or incendiary device. Something like that could be equally as hazardous to the user as the intended target, of course, but then again, so would silver in every other of its forms.

What about a dart that injects the were with colloidal silver? Burns them from the inside out, and that's what I'm planning for the group of werewolf hunters in my story to use when they're shootign to kill, instead of trying to take them allive so that hey can perform horrible experiments on them.When they take them alive, they use bullets plated with a layer of silver just thick enough to work but not so thick that it's really expensive.

Terastas wrote:

blackwolfhell wrote:That does explain that. But I do remember reading from somewhere that if sliver got in their bloodstream, they would die. Originally, that would kill anyone. Plus liquid silver is very hard to create. And once it hits air, it hardens right away. But what if they were allergic?

*nods* That's why in Underworld the silver nitrate rounds were (I presume) made like airtight containers that would break on contact. The FX team screwed it up with the oozing effect though.

Silver can be equally toxic if inhaled though, so a more effective use (though still a pain in the a** for a blacksmith) might be to grind it into a powder and mix it into a spray or incendiary device. Something like that could be equally as hazardous to the user as the intended target, of course, but then again, so would silver in every other of its forms.

What about a dart that injects the were with colloidal silver? Burns them from the inside out, and that's what I'm planning for the group of werewolf hunters in my story to use when they're shooting to kill instead of trying to take them alive so that hey can perform horrible experiments on them.When they take them alive, they use bullets plated with a layer of silver just thick enough to work but not so thick that it's really expensive.

From what I've heard silver bullets are so impractical because they fragment into hundreds of pieces once they enter the body, because they're so soft. To even make a silver bullet probable it would have to be mixed with steel or some other metal. It couldn't be 100% silver. Unless fired at point-blank range at the head I don't think it's deadly to humans, though the hundreds of silver fragments has got to have some negative effect and getting those fragments out would be a nightmare.

In the novel I'm writing the elder werewolves wear metal earrings with low percentages of silver to show their strength and power through their immunity to the silver. I still haven't decided on a metal for the silver to have been mixed with. Anyone have a suggestion? Preferably not steel.

Sheekaka wrote:From what I've heard silver bullets are so impractical because they fragment into hundreds of pieces once they enter the body, because they're so soft. To even make a silver bullet probable it would have to be mixed with steel or some other metal. It couldn't be 100% silver. Unless fired at point-blank range at the head I don't think it's deadly to humans, though the hundreds of silver fragments has got to have some negative effect and getting those fragments out would be a nightmare.

It's actually the opposite! Silver is harder than lead (though it's still a "soft" metal), and is actually impractical because bullets are usually "cast" in dies. Silver melts a lot higher than lead and quickly cools, so it takes lot more effort to make a proper silver bullet. This details the whole process and it's challenges, and such. They do work, sorta.

A silver bullet - once made - would be only somewhat impractical as they'd be too hard to properly wound. They'd make a hole but keep on going and thus not expend all energy in the target. Also, in the case of werewolves, not leave nasty silver of painful hurting in the body.

The best sort of silver "Bullet" wouldn't even be a bullet. Silver buckshot would be fairly easy to make (in comparision) and as buckshot's whole purpose is making a huge hole in something and generally tearing the target apart, the harder-than-normal shot wouldn't make much a difference. Shotguns are also plentiful and the stereotypical civilian's weapon, making it the likely choice of most werewolf hunters.

I just finished reading Frostbite, and it mentioned that due to silver's higher melting point, the bullet doesn't receive the same amount of spin as lead bullet, because the lead partially liquefies while the silver doesn't. So, less accuracy.

That's a very good article, Aki.

It seems the best "silver" bullet would be a modified one where it's essentially turned into a sabot, with the majority of the "bullet" simply serving to ram a small amount of silver into the target. Amalgam bullets (lead bullets sprinkled with silver shavings) would be the ones with a tendency to fragment. A combination of the two would probably be pretty effective at close range, as it would fire high-velocity frangible ammunition that would be an absolute nightmare to remove, as it's fragmented into dozens, or hundreds, of tiny silver and lead chunks.

I suppose the best use, assuming a werewolf is still harmed by normal lead bullets, but only killed by silver, would be to wear the werewolf down with JHPs or cross points, and then finish it off with the silver bullet.

You want an effective "Silver" bullet? Not hard to do:
Take powdered Silver and mix it with a water soluble "grease" like K-Y Jelly and then load it into a large hollow-point pistol bullet.

The "filling" doesn't affect the bullet's usability, but when fired into a Werewolf's body, it not only opens and damages that way, the solubilized silver paste is spread throughout the wound and as the "carrier" (the K-Y jelly) dissolves, the silver is free to migrate throughout the Werewolf's body.
Naturally, all this is something that would have to be done in advance, and any inspection of the firearm would show that the bullets had been tampered with...not a good thing. The fact that you could do the same with Arsenic would tend to make you a really bad person in everybody's eyes.

RedEye wrote:You want an effective "Silver" bullet? Not hard to do:
Take powdered Silver and mix it with a water soluble "grease" like K-Y Jelly and then load it into a large hollow-point pistol bullet.

The "filling" doesn't affect the bullet's usability, but when fired into a Werewolf's body, it not only opens and damages that way, the solubilized silver paste is spread throughout the wound and as the "carrier" (the K-Y jelly) dissolves, the silver is free to migrate throughout the Werewolf's body.
Naturally, all this is something that would have to be done in advance, and any inspection of the firearm would show that the bullets had been tampered with...not a good thing. The fact that you could do the same with Arsenic would tend to make you a really bad person in everybody's eyes.

Isn't that pretty much what I said?

Dreamer wrote: Isn't that pretty much what I said?

No, actually. Your suggestion was darts and bullets plated with a thin layer of silver, whereas RedEye suggested using hollowpoint bullets topped with a gob of powered silver and a soluble carrier.

Similar, but different, as the dart isn't likely to also put a moderate-sized hole in whatever it hits. Though, the dart certainly works for a more stealthy option, since airguns are typically vastly quieter than conventional firearms.

Well, the darts are supposed to inject some sort of colloidal silver solution into the blood, which would cause more damage to them than a regular bullet hole because of the whole "burning from the inside out" thing that would probably happen to a werewolf pumped full of silver.

yes, if they can find a silver that stays a liquid.