THE PACK Message Boards

vrikasatma wrote:The Bible says nothing about Purgatory, and as for Hell, there's no mention of torture, flames, et alia. That's from l'Inverno. The Bible says that Hell — Sheol in the Hebraic — is a place of darkness, silence and stillness

That...sounds lovely. Dark, quiet, and still: my idea of paradise. An endless black abyss in which to float for eternity.

WolvenOne wrote:Hell for example is derived from a word meaning burning land-fill, in the Bible it's meant more as a descriptive then the actual name.

One little correction here: the word hell is the church's attempt to demonize a Norse goddess, who's name was Hel. Hell does not mean "burning land-fill" or "garbage pit", but alot of people will try and convince you it does. It was one of their little things in order to try and convert the pagans. Almost all fo the holidays we have now were also stolen from the pagans and turned into something they were never meant to be. Even Santa Claus and the Easter bunny are pagan in origin.

Some random factoids: the Jews were once Pagan. Jesus wasn't a Christian, he was Jewish. The name of the Jewish god is spelled Iehova, but pronounced as "Jahova". And I think I've blathered enough.

Reilune wrote: Some random factoids: the Jews were once Pagan. Jesus wasn't a Christian, he was Jewish. The name of the Jewish god is spelled Iehova, but pronounced as "Jahova". And I think I've blathered enough.

Heh...that reminds me of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.



Professor Henry Jones: "The Word of God."
Marcus Brody: "No, Henry. Try not to talk."
Professor Henry Jones: "The Name of God."
Indiana Jones: "The Name of God. Jehovah."
Professor Henry Jones: "But in the Latin alphabet, 'Jehovah' begins with an 'I'."
Indiana Jones: "J-..."

Oh and, sorry for going into long drawn-out descriptives concerning my religion. Religion actually is one of my faverite subjects and I tend t go on and on and on when it's brought up.

Nah, not at all. I didn't know much about the Mormon religion coming in, I appreciate the education I'm getting.

Knowledge = understanding which is a leading cause of harmony and tolerance.[/quote]

Reilune wrote:Some random factoids: the Jews were once Pagan. Jesus wasn't a Christian, he was Jewish. The name of the Jewish god is spelled Iehova, but pronounced as "Jahova". And I think I've blathered enough.

A good many of the Jews in the Exodus had adopted the worship of Kemite deities. Moses' brother Aaron was a kher-heb — "educated in the temple arts" — basically, a Kemite shaman/monk. Kher-hebs calligraphed the scrolls, painted the temple walls, made the images and tended the altars.

Kemi was one of the most cosmopolitan countries of the ancient world; basically you could find anything from Chinese to Celts there. One of Ramses' the Great's wives was a Celt. The only requirements for citizenship were you had to join a deity cult, take a Kemite name and pay tribute to Pharaoh.

There's a small resurgence of Hebraic Paganism in the Pagan movement. I've read articles by a self-confessed priestess of Lilitu (Lilith, purportedly Adam's first wife but actually a Semitic goddess whose name and legendry carried over into the Bible). I've also heard about a movement in the Catholic Church to deify Mother Mary, and among Judaeo-Christian mystics the Holy Spirit is called "Sophia" and regarded as a feminine deity — essentially, God the Father's consort and mother to God the Son.

J2P2 did his level best to quash such thought in the Church and this new guy is even more conservative than he was, so I don't hold out a lot of hope that this train of thought will reach the mainstream anytime soon.

Figarou wrote:

Reilune wrote: Some random factoids: the Jews were once Pagan. Jesus wasn't a Christian, he was Jewish. The name of the Jewish god is spelled Iehova, but pronounced as "Jahova". And I think I've blathered enough.

Heh...that reminds me of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.



Professor Henry Jones: "The Word of God."
Marcus Brody: "No, Henry. Try not to talk."
Professor Henry Jones: "The Name of God."
Indiana Jones: "The Name of God. Jehovah."
Professor Henry Jones: "But in the Latin alphabet, 'Jehovah' begins with an 'I'."
Indiana Jones: "J-..."

i've seen that, that was close, it would of turned messy

Reilune wrote:

vrikasatma wrote:The Bible says nothing about Purgatory, and as for Hell, there's no mention of torture, flames, et alia. That's from l'Inverno. The Bible says that Hell — Sheol in the Hebraic — is a place of darkness, silence and stillness

That...sounds lovely. Dark, quiet, and still: my idea of paradise. An endless black abyss in which to float for eternity.

WolvenOne wrote:Hell for example is derived from a word meaning burning land-fill, in the Bible it's meant more as a descriptive then the actual name.

One little correction here: the word hell is the church's attempt to demonize a Norse goddess, who's name was Hel. Hell does not mean "burning land-fill" or "garbage pit", but alot of people will try and convince you it does. It was one of their little things in order to try and convert the pagans. Almost all fo the holidays we have now were also stolen from the pagans and turned into something they were never meant to be. Even Santa Claus and the Easter bunny are pagan in origin.

Some random factoids: the Jews were once Pagan. Jesus wasn't a Christian, he was Jewish. The name of the Jewish god is spelled Iehova, but pronounced as "Jahova". And I think I've blathered enough.

Correction, Hell does indeed mean burning landfill. The translation is a bit sloppy I'll give you that but Sheol (the word that seems to be translated into Hell most frequently.) Does indeed reffer to a large pile of burning trash or in some cases a shallow grave. There is actually a cultural reason "why," the hebrews have such a word as well. You see, they would essentially pile all thier trash into piles for months and periodically set them to burn. Supposedly the piles were so large that they would burn or smulder for weeks.

So when the bible reffers to hell, it's actually reffering to "a place that's like hell/sheol."

Then I have a question for you. How does the word Sheol end up translated as hell? Wouldn't the word hell already have to exist in order for the word to be translated into it? And what of the Norse goddess? I assure you I didn't make her up.

No, I've heard of Hel. I've met an Asatruar who did some work with Her. He summed it up in the soundbite "Dancing with Death."

The burning pit of trash was an actual place, the Pit of Gehinnom. It was located outside Jerusalem. It is also referred to as Gehenna and was originally a Pagan site. Sacrifices to the god Mammon and some other Sumerian deities were brought there, typically children. The attending priests would give the kids knockout drugs before slitting their throats and pitching them in...yes, it was gruesome and would that it didn't have to be that way but it's better than some other means of human sacrifice...I cite the Aztecs...

Burning trash is actually a very shrewd means of waste control.

Like I said, very sloppy translation. I believe hell is just a very badly done phonetical spelling of Sheol. The two terms do sound vaugly similer after all.

On the Bless me father, for I have sinned.... again... thing:

Most sane Christians generally recognize that the forgiveness is only given if there is genuine intent at reform. You get forgiveness for PAST deeds if you're genuinely changed and reformed. Being forgiven implies that you've gone home and rethought your life.

As for the philosophical problem of infinite damnation and a God with compassion, Christianity is on its own with that one. Whenever I run the numbers, my emulator keeps crashing.

Scott Gardener wrote:On the Bless me father, for I have sinned.... again... thing:

Most sane Christians generally recognize that the forgiveness is only given if there is genuine intent at reform. You get forgiveness for PAST deeds if you're genuinely changed and reformed. Being forgiven implies that you've gone home and rethought your life.

As for the philosophical problem of infinite damnation and a God with compassion, Christianity is on its own with that one. Whenever I run the numbers, my emulator keeps crashing.

Agreed, that's why I'm a Mormon and not a Christian. As I've stated before, our view of the afterlife appears to me to work a lot better due to the amount of flexability built into it.

vrikasatma wrote:No, I've heard of Hel. I've met an Asatruar who did some work with Her. He summed it up in the soundbite "Dancing with Death."

The burning pit of trash was an actual place, the Pit of Gehinnom. It was located outside Jerusalem. It is also referred to as Gehenna and was originally a Pagan site. Sacrifices to the god Mammon and some other Sumerian deities were brought there, typically children. The attending priests would give the kids knockout drugs before slitting their throats and pitching them in...yes, it was gruesome and would that it didn't have to be that way but it's better than some other means of human sacrifice...I cite the Aztecs...

Burning trash is actually a very shrewd means of waste control.

Mammon was a Phoenician god...
The Sumerians never practiced human sacrifices.
And I think you're thinking of Moab, the site of the temple of Moloch, to whom the Phoenicians (and their descendants the Carthagians) sacrificed children to.
And their method of sacrifice was far more gruesome than what the Aztecs did (ie, slitting the child's throat before tossing her into a lake)...
The priests placed a child, a goat kid, a calf, and a chicken into a cabinet built into a giant idol of Moloch, and lit fires around the idol to incinerate the victims, while they played large drums to drown out the screaming.
The ashes were then placed in ceremonial jars called "topeths" I believe.

Moloch, right. Mammon is money.

The burning pit outside Jerusalem where children were sacrificed was correct, though. This was Gehenna. Vampire: the Masquerade actually used that symbol/locus as central to one of their Gehenna scenarios, the Antediluveans literally burnt their childer (Post-diluveans) alive (un-live) after taking over Jerusalem and establishing it as their capitol on earth.

When it doubt, check Wikipedia

"Hell, as it exists in the Western popular imagination, has its origins in Hellenized Christianity, particularly taken from adaptation of the Hellenistic afterlife known as Tartarus. Judaism, at least initially, believed in Sheol, a shadowy existence to which all were sent indiscriminately. Sheol may have been little more than a poetic metaphor for death, not really an afterlife at all: see for example Sirach. However, by the third to second century B.C. the idea had grown to encompass a far more complex concept.

The Hebrew Sheol was translated in the Septuagint as 'Hades', the name for the underworld in Greek mythology and is still considered to be distinct from "Hell" by Eastern Orthodox Christians. The Lake of Fire and realm of Eternal Punishment in Hellenistic mythology was in fact Tartarus. Hades was not Hell in Hellenistic mythology, but was rather a form of limbo where the dead went to be judged. The New Testament uses this word, but it also uses the word 'Gehenna', from the valley of Ge-Hinnom, a valley near Jerusalem used as a landfill. Hebrew landfills were very unsanitary and unpleasant when compared to modern landfills; these places were filled with rotting garbage and the Hebrews would periodically burn them down. However, by that point they were generally so large that they would burn for weeks or even months. In other words they were fiery mountains of garbage. The early Christian teaching was that the damned would be burnt in the valley just as the garbage was. (It is ironic to note that the valley of Ge-Hinnom is today, far from being a garbage dump, a public park.) It is argued by theologians opposed to hell but desirous to defend the Bible as a source, that a reference to a place on Earth where rubbish was burnt can not refer to any conscious after-death state.

Punishment for the damned and reward for the saved is a constant theme of early Christianity."

Okay the article is obviously taking a standpoint of a skeptic but my point stands. Hell = Garbage dump.

WolvenOne wrote:Okay the article is obviously taking a standpoint of a skeptic but my point stands. Hell = Garbage dump.

[Think think think]
H'mm.
[Nods] Works for me

i guess people would see me as a protestant-christian .
altho i have never been baptised, and i dont believe in god.

I have my own religion. I think its better to have an idea the to make it solid

To my family I'm Cristian, otherwise I don't know what the hell I beleive in. Just my own little religion, looking for whats right and wrong.

Church of Christ myself, born and raised that way, thought that particular sect automatically raises the ^RED ALERT! ULTRA CONSERVATIVE^ flag, but that is not me, and that is not my church. I have an unbreakable faith in the Lord, and His son and always will. I hear of churches shunning others with eccentric beliefs or lifestyles, and it makes me wanna puke. God's message is for everyone, and the last thing a church should do is put itself on a pedestal, and those kind of places make me F* SICK!!. Anyway, i go everysunday that i can, because to me it is a moral relief and rejuvenation, and sometimes more personal time with God. I wont put down your beliefs, even if I dont agree with them. I make it a point to treat everyone like they should be, as if they were church members ( though i must admit i cuss a little too much, and have countless inuendos) and give respect.

Solitary Animist - Its teh closet that I can come to 'explaining' what I "follow".

I haven't found any organized group to join that follows anythign simialr to my own ideals. I'm far too well-read, and far too-broad minded. I've abosirbed many different aspects and idelogogies.

Raised United Methoidst Christian, taught by 'withches', started studying RL vamprisim, 'discovered' Therianhtropy groups, expanded into Shammanism, moved to 'New Age' faction beliefes, Started digging into Druidism, found a place in Philosphy debates for a time..,

One thing leads to teh next. I'm currently studying Kabahla (sp) and how it effects ( reality / perception of reality ) the world around us.

Am a heavy symbolic person, and slightly superstiious. *chuckles*\\So yeah. Melting pot. Me. ^.^ *chuckles*

I found that following you're own beliefs is most rewarding. Mine are running amok out there somewhere and still look something Like This

*bookmarks*

Methodist

I'm Pagan all the way. Years and years ago I was at Pyramid Point in northern Michigan. Sitting away from the path in dew soaked foliage and looking out over Lake Michigan. At that point I was agnostic, a sort of spiritual journey that I accidently started upon - it was at that instant when I realized that god isn't some dude in the clouds judging us. It was nature. Humans aren't exalted beings, were just another animal and that the cycle of life and death, static and chaos and everything that creates nature is part of the divine plan. I also feel more comfortable with the idea of a divine feminine than a white dude from Iraq .

I'm all about self exploration. Not in the way that is frowned upon by the Catholic Church. I firmly believe that humans are taught to ignore thier senses and instincts. Instincts including things like what is referred to as "psychic phenomonon". Hell I'm very interested in what the paranormal I've seen some things that have convinced me that maybe I'm on to something

---------------------
Rant...

I don't want to offend anyone. So please, if you get angry just remember I'm some chubby dude in his parents basement

Christanity, Judism, Catholism, Islam...have all out grown thier intentions. Every one of those religions began (alledgedly) with the intention to spread peace and prosperity and it did. But man, is a corrupting force thats utterly relentless. And zeal is the most destructive force on the planet.

Christianity for instance. Waltzed through primitive England with the message of saving people through the glory of Jesus Christ. Nothing wrong with that. But they diluted thier religion with pagan symbology. They intergrated so many diffrent folk traditions into that original Christianity isn't what it was. Their no longer missionaries thier salesmen.
So fast forward many years. After genocides, and religious cleansings. They get a hold on Europe and deem witches who are; herbalists, and spiritual mediums and shamanstic folk and innocent girls evil. Then hang them or burn them. These are heinous acts of supreme vicreal violence. There's a fraction in the church now. A telling one I must say. You have fundamentalists and you have...rational folk. The rational folk are meek voices in the back of the congregation that when someone stands and says "She's a witch! Lets burn her!" they say "Hey wait a minute..." but the Fundamentalists are...louder than they are...and lets face in this world leaders are few and followers are many. So when the louder Fundamentalists are lighting torches and building a bon fire the followers are going to side with them. Almost by instinct.

Modern day. I'll watch the 700 Club, or I listen to people talk, and I hear things like "God fearing" and "sinning" and "hellfire" and I can only see the exploited husks of long dead intentions. Now its the pedistal for demagogues, fearmongers and most recently politians wanting votes. The Church demands bits of your paycheck while the pastors speed around town in expensive Itallian Sports cars. They build giant glittering, uber-churches with Starbucks, and Plasma TV's and laser shows and meanwhile farmers struggling to get by show up each week and throw money in the tray. In that light its hard not to see Christianity as just a business with faith and all that crap as a distant after thought.

Now everyone who finds peace in Jesus, great! Our grasp of spirituality will never be accurate. You just go with what feels right and we'll all chill out in the greater beyond in a few dozen years. I think its fortunate that you can find faith in something that comforts you and gives you a peace of mind. But it seems like the church uses guilt as a weapon to keep its numbers. As they lock people into thier faith by promises of damnation if they falter - even MORE even men take up the sword of Christianity and wield that as a weapon in a war comprised of underhanded smear campagins, back stabbing and controlling what everyone precieves as "The Moral High" ground.

Religion like governments, like tribes, like any other large organization of people contains a sort of maximum population before corruption implodes it and mutates it into something dangerous. In this country (the US) we see a definate; Christanity = good. Muslims = bad. They spout 9/11 rhetoric to get people angry and scared. They paint muslims as shrouded men with assault rifles and exploding vests. But...aren't there crazy Christian fundamentalists in the hills of Montana? Just look at Warren Jeffs, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Marshal Applewhite, Pat Robertson (I figure he's nuts)... thier all bat freakin' crazy! And you can't tell me that guys like Jim Jones weren't using religion as a platform to further thier own goals.

And thats all I've got to say about that

ehh... w/e
you belive what you want to belive
and ill do my thing