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Figarou wrote: *beans Excelsia with duckies for starting this topic*

*quickly activates forcefield.*

Shaun wrote: What about Excelsia? I'd say she knows her stuff pretty well too

to Excelsia: As long as I'm talking about you I'd like to say your avatar is awesome.

Thank you, thank you. If only I had drawn it myself. . Though I did provide the description and a substantial amount of the coloring. It's still not quite finished though. The lovely drawing is the work of Silverclaw.


And thanks to everyone else for the nice comments. I'm glad we've reached a tentative agreement without too much heated discussion.

Aki wrote:

ChaosWolf wrote:Personally, the way werewolves are in my own perceptions, the genitals of the male are mixed, with the canine sheath and knot, but the placement of it between the legs human-style instead of riding up the belly like a dog (look at any anthro-wolf nude to understand this)

As for the female, it too is mixed, but, unlike the male, which favors the canine side over the human one, the female is the reverse, favoring the human over the canine - the overal form is a human one, but the clitoris is a bit larger, and the labia are a bit thicker and 'puffy', in resemblance to the canine females 'protruding' genitals.

All of this, mind you, is somewhat easily concealed by the moderately-thick layer of fur masking the outline of such things, which, unaroused, only makes the males have a slight bulge, and the females a smooth groin - unless you look at them from directly underneath. But you better be DAMN good friends with her before trying that kind of viewpoint.
.

I have to agree with that...

I agree with this as well. However how would all the "internal plumbing" work with such a system?

The 'plumbing' for both male and female would work pretty-much like a human's, really, except for the male having to, er, unsheath himself to urinate. But that's basically the same as a human guy pulling back the foreskin, so no big deal there.

As for sexual positioning, well, obviously 'doggy-style' (there's gotta be a better word for it than that - sounds like a bad pun around here) would be the 'ideal' pose for coupling, but classical missionary, female-on-top, and other such poses are still just as possible with them as with human lovers.

And that is why you deserve the term 'Werewolf Genitalia Expert'.

ChaosWolf wrote:The 'plumbing' for both male and female would work pretty-much like a human's, really, except for the male having to, er, unsheath himself to urinate. But that's basically the same as a human guy pulling back the foreskin, so no big deal there.

As for sexual positioning, well, obviously 'doggy-style' (there's gotta be a better word for it than that - sounds like a bad pun around here) would be the 'ideal' pose for coupling, but classical missionary, female-on-top, and other such poses are still just as possible with them as with human lovers.

Couldn't resist bringing this to the top again, did you?

Well, someone had a question left unanswered, so I felt obligated to answer it.

As for my unofficial 'Expert' tag, well, I have always had an interest in biology and medecine, and, since it's established in our little fan-made werewolf canon that lycanthropy can be transmitted by vectors other than the classic bite, it seems only fair to cover the relevant aspects of transmission, no?

I'm just being thorough with the details, that's all. I do it as a matter of science!

Excelsia wrote:Yeah, this is a rather uncomfortable topic, sorry.

So, most people seem to be of the opinion that male werewolves would have sheaths, and I think that makes sense.

But what about female werewolves? Would they retain their human genitalia, or develop canine genitalia? It would make more sense for them to have canine ones, simply because the males do. However, I've owned dogs for years and female dog genitals are not pretty by any stretch of the imagination.

Perhaps they could be located lower than a human female's, so that even if they were canine, you couldn't see them.

Thoughts?

(This doesn't necessarily apply to Freeborn...it can just be your general opinion.)

Have you seen a Goldenwolfs Kierrn specie. That's a good example for me. Theres some marks that you can think what sex WW is but still it doesn't show too much. Genitals are little bit canine like but not too much.
Female genitals should me more behind the fur but still a little bit like human.
Or if you're interested check out VCL gallery, it's full of that crap. Most of that stuff is pretty sick though so I suggess that you don't go there

Yeah. I know what you mean I don't even bother with galleries like that anymore for that reason. Now I just stick to personal pages, galleries with some sort of rule system, and the like.

Yep. I have a standing 'no-click' rule on anything from there.

Have any of ya'll seen Wolf's Rain? They do have visible parts, but only at certain angles to where they would be in real life visible.
Ex: In the ending song they show Kiba (male) running through the snow only from the side veiw. If the didn't show "it", it would only be scientifically correct to consider him as a female. Maybe it should be this way in the movie? But about the female werewolf thingy....
I think it should be covered by fur like in what Goldenwolf draws. It makes sense to me...

Since the whole bone, organ and tissue structure changes, why not the genitillia? Human 'type' in human form, canine type in wolf form and...
Well, are the gesalts bipedal or can they switch to quad and back? If they switch back and forth, then males at least would have to have canine type, other wise...
well, there would be a lot of WW sapranos walking around.
Females wouldn't really need to switch to canine type in gesalt form be they bipedal or quadreped capable.
Guh... my spelling stinks tonight, sorry:S
Granted, what it all boils down to on this is what looks good on camera, and I know nothing about that;)

Alteron wrote:Since the whole bone, organ and tissue structure changes, why not the genitillia?

That's a good point! And as for males switching back and forth- I'd rather just have one type of genitalia for gestalt and wolf otherwise that might get old after a while. Might kinda mess with you after a lot of tranforming back and forth from biped to quad too.

Having been quiet for a long while but still reading the forums :> I'd like to mention something.

A lot of discussion had been going on re the equipment.

But there is one major difference between a human and a canid member.

A canid member has a internal bone called a Baculum or a Oz bone.

Now - with this in mind it drastically alters the way a werewolf can walk, move, and if required perform a sexual act.


Why - because if one was to do a comparison between a wolf and a human and calculate the length of bone - one would be looking at about 7 inches or so. And bones cannot be bent!!


In the real world - and I can speak from experience having owned several German Sheps and bred them, and also being very comfortable with my werewolf mind set - one will always be stuck with somethings that can reduce only to a certain length.

If one was to remove the bone and thus have a more human style system, where the de-tumesent and the tumesent state are purely hydralic then one could have a very small sheath to fully hold the member and it could be neatly tucked between the legs or covered by long fur.

With the bone there will always be a certain length to deal with, and unless the section of skin that attaches the sheath to the body is extremely pliable then the sheath would have to be fully retracted till the section after the bone is reveal to move it around for intromission. Unless the act of intromission is at the angle to allow the sheath to retract.

Fitting it between the legs in a more horizonal format would not work for one has to measure the distance throught the pelvis just between the legs. And unless you want your werewolf running about with something pretty unhideable (and dangers to be caught on bushes and thorns etc)

The best diagrams or sketches I have seen are as follows

The sheath if placed on the belly pointing upwards. For the female the genitals are also on the front and more prominant around the pubic bone. Mating in 'half' form is easier face to face, and for wolf form the standard position we are all aware of can be used.

Longer fur can be used to hide this but you are looking at heavy fur from just below the navel downwards.

At the end of the day it must all come done to mechanics.. One one has decided the internal structure then fact must follow form.

As a sideline - I do make costumes as a hobby and I have been recently asked to help with an adult werewolf movie where I am trying to make things as realistic and functional as possible. The end results are looking very lifelike and what I have had to work out re the mechanics of extenstion and retraction, plus the normal urination and erectile functions has given me even more insite into the issues.

If you really want to work out how something will look.... Build It

Take Care

Marcwolf


p.s. - I will not post the links to what I am working on here but if people would like to see the step by step contruction then please drop me a line or a PM and I will give you the links.

Bone? Got an x-ray? 'Cause I really don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Reilune wrote:Bone? Got an x-ray? 'Cause I really don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Every mammal, except humans and primates, have a bone in their penis.

Well that sounds potentially painful. But I still don't see how that would matter much. I can't ever recall seeing it up the belly on a wolf. As far as I know that's a dog thing.

Reilune wrote:Bone? Got an x-ray? 'Cause I really don't know what the hell you're talking about.

The penis bone is known as a "baculum"

Ah, you beat me to it! Here's what I was gonna post:

Dog Skeleton

Wolf Skeleton

Hope that's not really redundent or anything...

I think this link will explain it better

http://www.skullsunlimited.com/baculums.html

Now - with canids - when the male penetrates the female he is often not fully eract and thus the bone acts as both an anchor for the penis, as well as keeping it rigid.

After intromissin the shaft swells to its full size and the 'knot' forms. Behind the knot is a set of nerves that act as a reflex point and when the females vulva/vaginal muscles clamp to hold the dog inside these nerves are stimulated and cause the dog to thrust to bring it to climax.

Its just basic zoology.

The two can usually caught in the 'copulatory tie' for between 20 to 40 minutes.

With the werewolf being a thinking creature - a 'quicky' could just being careful not to push the knot in.. or if time and situation permits be together for the full time.

<Shrugs> Sorry about the details but when I look at something I research it and then look at the ramifications. You have all seen programs where they describe why a giant be impossible. Height verses Leg bones verses Muscles to support etc

Its just the same. here. You have to consider all aspect because you are taking a hybrid creature and making it real..

For example.. We have all seen Pegasus. to make a real pegasus the achor point for the wing musles would dray the front of the hourse out to about 6 feet or more. And a vegitation driven digestive system just cannot support that level of energy needed to get the creature off the ground.


Of course a very basic question would be.. would a werewolf have sex to breed. If the bite is a way to make werwolves then that would be the way that a werewolf would promote it's genes. Mating would be for plesure only depending on the individual. And serve no biological action.

Take Care

Marc

I'd say reproduction would be by both bite and breeding, the primary mechanism likely dependant on the pack or individual in question. Urban/city-dwellers would likely prefer to bite, as werewolf pups would likely be quite a risk, even if shifting only became possible upon the advent of adolescence. In more rural areas, the opposite would be true; less people around to bite, and less risk to having a more normal wolfpack lifestyle.

You make many good points, Marcwolf.

Heh, between me identifying comparative physical sexual characteristics, and you defining internal reproductive anatomical detailing, we've got a pretty good concept of werewolf sexual capability going on here...

Maybe we should open up a medical center together... we could be the Masters & Johnson of the lycanthrope world.

Sound a great idea.

Now - if we could get ourselves classified as an endagered species and get funding for a breeding program

But as I mentioned before - I do enjoy looking at something and working out how it works.

The only problem I have come up with re a vertical sheath is hygine.

To study comparative anatomy - the sheath is just an enlongated foreskin. It protects the glans from abrasion and other harm. A wereo've penis is technically an interal organ like a dogs.

To do that it also needs to secrete various mucosa, and this would gravitate to the lowest point of the sheath which would be at the base.

To perform hygine - a male werewolf would either have to fully unsheath to wash (and that would need water etc) or be flexible enough to get his toungue down there to clean.

We do know that a dog's saliva does act as a cleaning agent for that dog and that dog's do clean themselve in that manner.

So a werewolf should be able to do the same. Unless the design would change that.

Now.. I am talking Hygine here!! OK.. and I fully understand that if a male could get his muzzle down there then a regular 'cleaning/flushing of the tubes' might occur..

But when designing a creature these are all of the little aspects you have to think about and run throught scenario's.


Now - I am about to go on a tangent here re pack rituals etc.

One idea did come to mind.. Many cultures when a male gets to be a certain age will undergo an initiation to adult hood.

Male cubs could have a small nick at the base of the sheath so that anything would drain out. Making it easier to clean, plus with maturity the secretions would be more and also more pungent.


This could act as a scent advertisement/notification to other pack members. For a pack member to mark a tree he could either urinate or just press the sheath with the damp area beneath the 'nick' against the tree and achieve the same thing.

Any other wolf scenting that would know the individual, their sexual maturity, thier sexual rediness, and also - if they kept themselves clean.

All attributes for a desirable mate.

Just some random musings...

Marc

i wouldn't worry too much about a werewolves hygine... just shift to human (or wolf, if one would prefer..)

Marcwolf wrote:Sound a great idea.

Now - if we could get ourselves classified as an endagered species and get funding for a breeding program

But as I mentioned before - I do enjoy looking at something and working out how it works.

The only problem I have come up with re a vertical sheath is hygine.
One idea did come to mind.. Many cultures when a male gets to be a certain age will undergo an initiation to adult hood.

Male cubs could have a small nick at the base of the sheath so that anything would drain out. Making it easier to clean, plus with maturity the secretions would be more and also more pungent.


This could act as a scent advertisement/notification to other pack members. For a pack member to mark a tree he could either urinate or just press the sheath with the damp area beneath the 'nick' against the tree and achieve the same thing.

Any other wolf scenting that would know the individual, their sexual maturity, thier sexual rediness, and also - if they kept themselves clean.

All attributes for a desirable mate.

Just some random musings...

Marc

Rather like a hybrid bar-mitzvah/circumcision for lycanthropes, hm?

Not a bad idea.

Since the idea you theorized was a cultural aspect, it's possible that some werewolves might not have it for various reasons (not part of a pack, their pack has different 'adulthood' rituals, etc.) so I alternately offer this theory.

The secretions are present, of course, but minimal. However, just like the residual sweat and such of a human male's area, the material can build up over enough time, so washing regularly is a matter of keeping good hygiene (plus, no female, werewolf or human, would want a guy with a funny-smelling groin). Washing, however, would be a simple matter of 'flushing out' the sheath with a bit of running water; basically done by filling it, pinching it shut, then gentle massage it to let the water come back up-and-out.

Bathing with one's mate, however, might prolong this last step a little bit.

Reilune wrote:Well that sounds potentially painful. But I still don't see how that would matter much. I can't ever recall seeing it up the belly on a wolf. As far as I know that's a dog thing.

I think, if I remember right, that wolves have it located farther back than dogs. On some photos I've seen, the male wolf "arrangement" looked a bit more like a cat's, with most of it tucked up under the tail, and not so much like a dog's, with the penile opening that is about mid-stomach. In photos of wolves mating, it also looks (though it is hard to be sure) as if the male wolf is coming at the female from a slightly different angle, with the back rotated and "hunched" near the tail end, while dogs just seem to slap their belly onto the female's back and instantly connect. In other words, it looks like it is a bit trickier for wolves to have sex than for dogs.

The length and presence of a penile bone would not matter as much to placement as you might think, for two reasons:
1) The entire arrangement is not parallel to the skin surface of the male, it is sunk into the abdomen at an angle. Therefore, you don't need to find seven inches of flat skin to place the "equipment" (which is one of the arguments people use for a mid-belly placement).
2) Most photographs I've seen of penile bones, they have at least some curvature, especially near one end. I'm not sure how curved the wolf bones are, but nothing I've seen so far is strictly straight.
2)