THE PACK Message Boards

You can certainly have martial arts without spiritual stuff and frankly, I think that a lot of werewolves who aren't pre-disposed to spiritual stuff would totally ignore any spiritual aspect. You have to care about the spiritual aspect to begin with to even care about incorporate it into the training.

When taught hand to hand combat, I somehow doubt that Green Berets or Spetsnaz see anything spiritual in their martial arts - but this doesn't making it any less of a martial art because the East does not have a monopoly on the idea of "beat s*** to death with your body".

Aki wrote:You can certainly have martial arts without spiritual stuff and frankly, I think that a lot of werewolves who aren't pre-disposed to spiritual stuff would totally ignore any spiritual aspect. You have to care about the spiritual aspect to begin with to even care about incorporate it into the training.

Ah... But don't forget that the spiritual aspect can be simplified to snippets of everyday life so that most people can understand. I know my brother and his mates always share what goes on in their lives everytime we're nearing the end of training. No matter what it is, you can digest at least a tiny bit of what they have to say, although the rest is pretty much up to you.

Aki wrote:You can certainly have martial arts without spiritual stuff and frankly, I think that a lot of werewolves who aren't pre-disposed to spiritual stuff would totally ignore any spiritual aspect. You have to care about the spiritual aspect to begin with to even care about incorporate it into the training.

When taught hand to hand combat, I somehow doubt that Green Berets or Spetsnaz see anything spiritual in their martial arts - but this doesn't making it any less of a martial art because the East does not have a monopoly on the idea of "beat s*** to death with your body".

ah, but you forget! There IS some sort of shadow from watered down martial arts spirituality! they use the concept of "no mindedness" That high level martial artists attain! I think they call "condition Orange" I think...Don't they also have to be mentally prepped as well? That's meditation-ish......well what I'm trying to say is that even if it's a Battle oriented style, the higher level users end up at the same point as those who actually use the spiritual part of martial arts regularly though meditation. You dig?

........
...............
...................Or maybe I should stop rambling.

Well, we're not saying what your saying isn't true.

I think the big dilemma is that "watered down" kung fu is still kung fu. The genuine article could mop the floor with a spiritually numb artist, but said spiritually numb artist could still mop the floor with everyone else.

Fair assessment?

Yes and No.

It's all up to the person whome practices it.

"Kung Fu" is specifically the martial arts style used by the monks of the Shao Lyn temple, and popularized by American and Japanese media.

If one presumes that the body of a transformed werewolf does not move and bend exactly in the same way as that of a Human, actual "Kung Fu" might not be very useful to attempt in that form. The moves would not work right. (Most/Some of them anyway).

However, MARTIAL ARTS in general I think would be perfectly viable, if maybe a little ridiculous looking and inconsistent with the FERRAL image of a Werewolf.

The term "Martial Arts" in general simply translates as "The art of Physical Combat and Defense". Spiritualism and all that other stuff is not necessarily part of it (though they are frequently found together).

So, a Werewolf using "Martial Arts" would, (in essence) simply be a Werewolf who has practiced fighting and has developed and learned refined ways to fight and use their bodies to greater potential and efficiency in Melee.

"Boxing" is a Martial Art. "Sumo" is a martial art. "Wrestling" is a Martial Art. ... even a self-taught street brawler who fights with brass knuckles (does anyone actually use those any more?) and a switchblade, and has become skilled and experienced in hand to hand combat would be considered a "Martial Artist" of sorts. They are "Skilled in the Art of Martial Conflict".


Presuming they are clear headed enough while transformed to be more precise and intentful in their movements and apply considerable foresight to their actions while in situations of martial conflict (vs. simply acting on raw instinct), I can see no reason why a Werewolf could not use some form of "Martial Arts".

In all honesty, if they have been in a few fights already and learned anything from it, they would naturally begin to apply basic Martial Arts principles (blocking, dodging, and knowing where, when and how to strike your opponent) to their next melee conflict whether they even realize they are doing it or not.

Since I asked that question regarding spirituality and martial arts, there have been a lot of interesting responses, which I've read with interest.

I'd also like to thank everyone for not taking my curiousity the wrong way, I'm a pacifistic sort and not acquainted with the ways of martial arts. Everything that followed that question was enlightening, though.

But there are a few things I'd like to pick up on...

Terastas: I think I see what you're getting at, there. A martial artist who has a spiritual investment in their training might have more conviction and dedication than one that doesn't. As it becomes a part of conviction as a belief system as much as it is a conviction to perfect oneself physically.

I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that having spiritual investment in an activity provides for helpful self-conditioning, and the drive that comes from belief can push an entity to their limits. So wrapping a belief around a fighting system may, by way of proxy, make a better fighter.

Vuldari: You certainly make an interesting point, at the end of the day, a fighting style is a fighting style, and if it has any uniform element which could be passed along (rather than just undisciplined flailing) then it's as valid as any other. In which case, long-standing weres would certainly have their own styles which they'd likely pass on to each following generation.

The arguement for a Wulfen fighting style wouldn't necessarily come up unless the Werewolf has different limbs from his human baseform.
The ratios of forearm to upper arm, the hinging of the arm and likewise the legs and feet might make for a "Wulf-adapted" form of some human martial arts.
The tail would actually be quite useful as a counter-balance in some katas, and while humans cannot rake very effectively, wolves definitely can.
Thus might begin the species-specific form called "Rawr-Fu".

It's all just a matter of prespective, and in this case physical build does matter. In many traditiolan martial arts, control of the bodies energies is vastly importent. This would apply to a were wolf aswell.

Vuldari wrote:"Kung Fu" is specifically the martial arts style used by the monks of the Shao Lyn temple, and popularized by American and Japanese media.

Shao Lin monks use Shao Lin Kung Fu, and Shao Lin Kung Fu didn't come at least until about less than halfway into Kung Fu's life span of 6000 years. I'm sorry, but your indirect ignorance stepped on one of my nerves here.

If one presumes that the body of a transformed werewolf does not move and bend exactly in the same way as that of a Human, actual "Kung Fu" might not be very useful to attempt in that form. The moves would not work right. (Most/Some of them anyway).

Then by all means improvise. I don't care in what way, for the love of god, just improvise. In fact, a "snake bite" strike using pendulous movement from the waist up and a set of claws could literally turn into a REAL bite from a giant snake.

However, MARTIAL ARTS in general I think would be perfectly viable, if maybe a little ridiculous looking and inconsistent with the FERRAL image of a Werewolf.

Maybe a wolf wearing a human-style Tae Kwon Do grandmaster uniform might look a little peculiar, but it is entirely up to the wolf whether the wolf wants to adapt human applications of martial arts, wolf application of martial arts, or individual applications of martial arts. That, and the wolf in that picture is older than it looks.

The term "Martial Arts" in general simply translates as "The art of Physical Combat and Defense". Spiritualism and all that other stuff is not necessarily part of it (though they are frequently found together).

Well that certainly doesn't correlate to my master's definition of martial arts, which is, again, "the art of movement". Eh, what more do you expect from a martial art that's more dance-like than pugilism?

So, a Werewolf using "Martial Arts" would, (in essence) simply be a Werewolf who has practiced fighting and has developed and learned refined ways to fight and use their bodies to greater potential and efficiency in Melee.

But isn't that just an exterior definition?

... even a self-taught street brawler who fights with brass knuckles (does anyone actually use those any more?) and a switchblade, and has become skilled and experienced in hand to hand combat would be considered a "Martial Artist" of sorts. They are "Skilled in the Art of Martial Conflict".

... But then you'd have to erase the "art" in martial art and it'd just become "martial". Whatever.

experienced fighter =/= martial artist

That's a whole 'nother ball game in itself.

though nowadays stuff like MMA and military fighting styles remove the "art" from the age old martial arts.....

heartlessfang wrote:experienced fighter =/= martial artist

That's a whole 'nother ball game in itself.

though nowadays stuff like MMA and military fighting styles remove the "art" from the age old martial arts.....

MMA, WBF boxing, WTF TKD, etc., I think those are more appropriately categorized as combative sports. Military fighting styles, well... Not sure about that one.

While I agree with everything Vuldari etc. has said about martial arts. . . The name of this thread is "Werewolf and Kungfu." So while I agree that a werewolf could potentially employ boxing or military techniques in his werewolf form, and in no way am trying to downgrade the quality of such arts, it's kung fu that I think is the central focus of our discussion.

Regarding whether or not kung fu is spiritual or not. . . Well, it depends on the style of kung fu. According to Wikipedia, there are over eighty different schools. Some are "qi" centric, others are solely concentrated on exhibition.

So neither is right or wrong. The term "kung fu" just encompasses too much for one definition to be universally applicable.

So. . . Geez, I hate to parrot myself, but that ties right back into my original argument: that since all but the most (if you'll pardon the expression) ham-fisted forms depend on an understanding of the human body and what it is capable of, a werewolf would have a difficult time applying it in his wereform. His enhanced regeneration might make him more able while in his human form, but in wereform he'd be better off just improvising as he goes.

Let's step back for a moment. The whole center of any Martial Art form is control and balance. Whether it is Okinawan Kara-te or Shao Lin Kung Fu or Krav Maga (Israeli unarmed combat system) the focus is keeping the body in balance and aligned with the force being used against the opponent.
Simply put, Martial Arts Training helps you stay centered and balanced in a fight and shows you how to get your un-balanced opponent to do an unexpected face-plant at your time and place of choice.
Yes, some sort of "system" would help a new Wolf keep his/her feet on the floor. Yes, a Werewolf with a "System" would sweep up the gym with an un-trained opponent.
What's important is that this would be a "system", something that is developed from basic movements into a series of exercises that could also be used for self defense, and would almost have to be: A>the property of an intelligent, as opposed to instinctive, Werewolf; and B> specific to Werewolves as a fight system, since Were's aren't jointed like we are.
Would such a thing happen? The answer is simple: Why did the original "Systems" develop? Because of a need for protection against armed attackers. Now, would a Werewolf need such protection?
That's yours to figure out.

Aaaahh~! I love this discussion soo much!! Nothing like an intelligent conversation to get the creative juices flowing!

RedEye wrote:Let's step back for a moment. The whole center of any Martial Art form is control and balance. Whether it is Okinawan Kara-te or Shao Lin Kung Fu or Krav Maga (Israeli unarmed combat system) the focus is keeping the body in balance and aligned with the force being used against the opponent.
Simply put, Martial Arts Training helps you stay centered and balanced in a fight and shows you how to get your un-balanced opponent to do an unexpected face-plant at your time and place of choice.
Yes, some sort of "system" would help a new Wolf keep his/her feet on the floor. Yes, a Werewolf with a "System" would sweep up the gym with an un-trained opponent.
What's important is that this would be a "system", something that is developed from basic movements into a series of exercises that could also be used for self defense, and would almost have to be: A>the property of an intelligent, as opposed to instinctive, Werewolf; and B> specific to Werewolves as a fight system, since Were's aren't jointed like we are.
Would such a thing happen? The answer is simple: Why did the original "Systems" develop? Because of a need for protection against armed attackers. Now, would a Werewolf need such protection?
That's yours to figure out.

Agreed. ... exactly.


Many [though not all] movements in martial arts ("Kung Fu" included) are initially inspired by the instinctive movements of wild animals (and even common human movements) anyway. They become a "Sytem"/"Style"/"Technique"/"Art", when intelligent thought is applied to them to improve balance, efficiency and control to transform the basic movement into something that can be both practiced and taught as a part of a series of uniform movements. Then ... as far as I'm concerned ... if this "System" is sufficiently refined and proven effective ... it becomes a new form/style of "Martial Arts".

... as for "Kung Fu" specifically ... though many of the movements in the various forms of the Kung Fu style could be "Adapted" to be applicable to the range of motion of a Gestalt Werewolf, (to mixed effect) I really doubt that would be the most efficient course to follow.

Instead, I think it would be most effective (if a Werewolf was able, and had reason to learn a form of Martial Arts to use in transformed state), if they instead applied the basic principles of Martial Arts ("Balance" and "Control") to new movements better suited to their particular strengths and weaknesses ... effectively creating [or Learning, if someone already created it] a totally new style, rather than an emulated "Imitation" of less lycanthrope-friendly techniques.


All this said ... the more (movie style, not realistic) "Kung Fu", "Karate" or other High-Flying, Kicking, Punching style-like movements a Werewolf used, the more ridiculous I think it would appear, and be contrary to MY personal perception of how a Werewolf looks and behaves.

Jon Talbain, Yugo and SabreWulf from the "DarkStalkers", "Bloody Roar" and "Killer Instinct" games are fun and all for their respective genre ... but I can't help but feel that it just doesn't seem right to me otherwise, in general. ... just out of personal preference.

I think RedEye and Vuldari on the right track with this one. Assuming the purpose of all martial arts is to promote control and balance, a werewolf couldn't learn control and balance in his werewolf form by practicing a technique that was developed with the human body in mind. Some of the basic fundamentals (like how to properly make a fist, for example) might still apply, but anything beyond that would have to be learned through trial and error.

So assuming we're looking at modern day secretive werewolves, they probably wouldn't have any form of martial arts, but the various packs could have the beginning stages of one. Through trial and error, one pack member may have learned an easy way to stay balanced on two feet, another may have figured out an easy way to run on all fours without killing their hands, etc., etc., and as they share their experiences and techniques, the ones that work for others and in sync with other techniques become a system they can pass on to the rookies.

That system developed by the pack to encourage control and balance in basic functions may later be the foundation of a werewolf system of basic hand to hand combat, which may in turn be the foundation of a system of martial arts.

So while martial arts in general could be a possibility, I think we can rule out kung fu as we know it.

I'm always a bit uneasy talking about martial arts in general. Mainly because everybody has thier own definitions about what martial arts practice. The development of martial arts. The turn and definition of martial artist. And it's uses. Also what defines a martial artist. Thats a real mine field right there.

Grey wrote:I'm always a bit uneasy talking about martial arts in general. Mainly because everybody has thier own definitions about what martial arts practice. The development of martial arts. The turn and definition of martial artist. And it's uses. Also what defines a martial artist. Thats a real mine field right there.

I already have. It's just too much of a mouthful to explain in a few words.

Well I'm warry because martial artist's will start fights with each other over which style is better, which weapons should people learn, and the point at which a person can be called a martial artist.

If you're truly worried about the spiritual side of martial arts, it doesn't matter if your style looks like it fits a system. And if you're worried about a system, well, when has any lycan ever fit with a system?

heartlessfang wrote: ah, but you forget! There IS some sort of shadow from watered down martial arts spirituality! they use the concept of "no mindedness" That high level martial artists attain! I think they call "condition Orange" I think...Don't they also have to be mentally prepped as well? That's meditation-ish......well what I'm trying to say is that even if it's a Battle oriented style, the higher level users end up at the same point as those who actually use the spiritual part of martial arts regularly though meditation. You dig?

I don't think that qualifies as spiritual. It's just mental preperation and preparedness.

If one was to define that as spiritual then teaching them to keep cool when bullets are flying would be "spiritual" despite the fact that it really isn't.

There is a difference, I believe, between spirituality and having the wherewithal to keep it cool, collected keep on fighting no matter what. That requires nothing but belief in yourself to kick as much a** as humanly (or lycanthropely) possible - spirituality implies belief in something higher.

Terastas wrote:I think the big dilemma is that "watered down" kung fu is still kung fu. The genuine article could mop the floor with a spiritually numb artist, but said spiritually numb artist could still mop the floor with everyone else.

Fair assessment?

I really don't think so.

The spiritual component isn't really a huge factor in the fight. It's about skill, will, physical ability and luck (as luck is a component of every fight be they with hands, guns, or blades).

If one threw a Green Beret werewolf versus some Kung Fu master werewolf for some random a** reason it'd be up to the individuals in question's own capabilities that would prove one to be the winner over the other - not because one was more spirtual.

If one threw a Green Beret werewolf versus some Kung Fu master werewolf for some random a** reason it'd be up to the individuals in question's own capabilities that would prove one to be the winner over the other - not because one was more spirtual.

The funny thing is that my brother and I are taught not to think of winning a fight at all. In fact, being serious isn't even allowed most of the time. You're supposed to let everything go, free your mind and think of things like for example, you're being confronted with a guy holding a machete, and he's going to "give" (swing) it to you. If you want it, you can "take" it from him and say your thanks. If you don't, you can "give it back" (redirect it) to him, or "throw it away" (parry it). This is part of the "spiritual" aspect we're both being taught, because like i said, it's more of a hitting dance than a pugilistic style.

... Just in case you folks think engaging with a carefree mindset is impossible with werewolves.