Re: Pet Wolf
Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:23 pm
Show us a picture of this "pet wolf" Oh, with you in it so we know you're not just looking for attention.
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The only reason it's going on "behind her back" is because she hasn't replied to any of our comments yet.Gevaudan wrote:Funny how everyone here is carrying on a conversation about Wolf Gal behind her back and whether she should own a wolf, and she's not even replying. I don't think we should jump to conclusions until we at least hear her side of the story (although I will admit, some assumptions might prove to be true in this case).
Same. How many attention-seeking threads do you have to start, or how many blatant lies do you have to tell on this forum to get banned? Is there like a certain threshold? I mean, after the second time we saw Wolf Gal post outright plagiarized artwork, I thought that was it for sure, but I guess not.Terastas wrote:The only reason it's going on "behind her back" is because she hasn't replied to any of our comments yet.Gevaudan wrote:Funny how everyone here is carrying on a conversation about Wolf Gal behind her back and whether she should own a wolf, and she's not even replying. I don't think we should jump to conclusions until we at least hear her side of the story (although I will admit, some assumptions might prove to be true in this case).
I can think of plenty of reasons why she might have decided to start this thread, but I no longer have any real reason to believe that it's true.
Actually, the truism does not need to be updated, since the argument isn't that wild wolves can't be domesticated, but that they shouldn't.The study focused around the trend in Russia to domesticate silver foxes as pets. A paper from Cornell was published on the subject:
http://cbsu.tc.cornell.edu/ccgr/behaviour/Index.htm
The effort has been going since 1959 and I'm pretty sure there are domesticated wolf bloodlines that go back that far. Foxes are no less "wild" than wolves are. So the truism of "It's a wild animal!! Wild animals deserve to remain wild!!!!11!" needs to be updated.
Now wait a second. How would any of those scenarios change if we replaced pitbulls with domesticated wolves? There would still be a homeless population. People still wouldn't be able to afford food for them, in fact it would be even worse, because they would require more food and more space than other dogs. They would still be a menace to other domestic animals and people (wolves tend to KILL domestic dogs instinctively.) And being domesticated, of course they would have no fear of humans, that's the point behind domestication in the first place. It changes the behavior of the animal in question.Personally, I'd rather see domesticated wolves than pitbulls. My city's crawling with the latter and the homeless population around here trade, breed and, yes, fight them. They can't afford to buy dog food for them so they let them run and kill their own dinners. They're a menace to cats, other dogs, squirrels, turkeys, deer, chickens, cows, horses, and people. And as we know, dogs are more aggressive than wolves, and they have no fear of humans.
Actually, the math isn't favorable, since the number of pets put to sleep outnumber dead wolves by an order of magnitude.Meanwhile, about 500 miles east of here in Idaho and Montana, a wolf slaughter is going on. Now you do the math and tell me which is the better scenario.
My thoughts exactly. I'm not a person who encourages banning people, but with posters like Wolf Gal I would happily see a exception.Berserker wrote:Same. How many attention-seeking threads do you have to start, or how many blatant lies do you have to tell on this forum to get banned? Is there like a certain threshold? I mean, after the second time we saw Wolf Gal post outright plagiarized artwork, I thought that was it for sure, but I guess not.Terastas wrote:The only reason it's going on "behind her back" is because she hasn't replied to any of our comments yet.Gevaudan wrote:Funny how everyone here is carrying on a conversation about Wolf Gal behind her back and whether she should own a wolf, and she's not even replying. I don't think we should jump to conclusions until we at least hear her side of the story (although I will admit, some assumptions might prove to be true in this case).
I can think of plenty of reasons why she might have decided to start this thread, but I no longer have any real reason to believe that it's true.
Good luck with all three of those objectives because frankly you have more chance of being the Pope. I can understand that some may not like the idea of Zoo's but like it or not we cannot exactly start giving land back to nature like that and plopping down animals that are not used to being in the wild in said area. Likewise you are not going to make people feel more in tune with nature by putting tigers in their backyard. ;)For entertainment, or even (flawed) research, zoos represent a mindset of human encapsulation and control over the natural world, and rather than bringing humans closer to other animals, the meta-message of a zoo is actually an isolating and distancing one. If we're determined to save a species, I'd rather see 10,000 shopping centers torn down, the land reforested, and the animals returned. But that's a different debate altogether
Actually Scientists often do fool nature by making those "cages" pretty. If an animals needs are met and they are in something close to their natural habitat then they wont care about weather they are in the wild or in a Zoo.Scientists think they can fool nature, by making those cages pretty, but it is still a cage.
To answer your question, yes, I would prefer that they be hunted, as sad and infuriating as it may be. They will probably never go completely extinct, since they will always live in places too harsh for human habitation. But the day we see wolves become an empty shell of what they once were, shallow objects of entertainment, completely subservient to human beings... is a sadder day indeed.vrikasatma wrote: Me, I'd prefer they be domesticated if it means their continued existence. I've waited 47 years to hear a wolf howl in the real world, I don't want it taken away by a bunch of people who think Sarah Palin is the best thing that's happened to this country.
In fairness, however, the primary reason pitbulls are so much more a menace than wolves is because it's easier for Average Joe to get one.Berserker wrote:Now wait a second. How would any of those scenarios change if we replaced pitbulls with domesticated wolves? There would still be a homeless population. People still wouldn't be able to afford food for them, in fact it would be even worse, because they would require more food and more space than other dogs. They would still be a menace to other domestic animals and people (wolves tend to KILL domestic dogs instinctively.) And being domesticated, of course they would have no fear of humans, that's the point behind domestication in the first place. It changes the behavior of the animal in question.
There you have it, ladies and gentlemen, a Pack member who'd sacrifice wolves for the sake of an over-romanticized ideal.Berserker wrote:To answer your question, yes, I would prefer that they be hunted, as sad and infuriating as it may be.
*cough, cough* Ummmm... hardly. Wolves are way more aggressive than domesticated dogs (the pit bull probably coming closest to being an exception). Wild wolves will quite often kill a packmate or two in the course of an average year in various dominance contests. Add in the fact that the average domesticated dog (at least in most parts of the United States) has been spayed/neutered, which tends to cut down on aggression even further. You're mistaking aggression for the statistics on domectic dog maulings. Yes, dogs have little to no fear of humans, but that's why there are so many dog maulings, not because wolves are inherently less aggressive, which they most certainly are not.vrikasatma wrote: And as we know, dogs are more aggressive than wolves, and they have no fear of humans.
Not anymore. In 1997 there was a series of grisly wolf attacks upon humans in rural India. It has been fairly well documented and the wolves in question were found to be healthy. The wolves comprised a single small pack and for some unknown reason began preying upon human children... Which leads me into...Terastas wrote:Just because there has never been a documented report of a healthy wolf attacking a human being...
Yeah, um... I respectfully suggest you don't try that stunt here in California. You will go straight to jail. You will not pass Go. You will not collect $200. No lie. It's actually a felony here (as in you can in fact get sentenced to more than a year of incarceration for the offense). There are extremely rare permits issued by CFG for the keeping of wild predators, but you typically have to be a zoo. Secondly, I'm sure that wolves can be raised to be very loving and entirely obedient. That was the general state of the small pack of wolves that a Vallejo, California resident was (quite illegally) keeping as pets and passing off as malamutes. This guy didn't feel that the wolves were any threat whatsoever because they greeted him at the door just like a dog would, rolled on their backs and begged for belly-rubs just like a dog would, scratched at the door when they needed to go outside just like a dog would. And then one day, when Alpha was gone (to work), Beta led the pack in digging out of the yard into a neighbor's property whereupon they entered the neighbor's house and killed a small child and then killed the elderly woman who came to the child's screams. A wolf (admittedly like some dogs in this respect) will behave submissively around a dominant human "packmate" and will go completely predatory when left to its own devices. That dude could not believe that his loving pets could turn into such vicious killers. And by the way, the jury didn't care when they sentenced him for negligent homicide.alphanubilus wrote:Firstly, ANYBODY can get a pet wolf, legally. There are several breeders where I live in Oklahoma. (what else are we Oklahomans going to do). It is NOTHING for me to be in a Pet's Mart, and see a regular family with a wolf, wolf/dog hybrid. Depending on how you raise them, they can be quite lovable.
No. I have not. Wolves do NOT make good pets!alphanubilus wrote:Have any of you ever owned a wolf, or knew somebody he has? I have... It's really amazing to see so many of you preach against it, and yet I doubt hardly any of you have ever had experience.
Ofcourse not.MattSullivan wrote:This person doesn't have a pet wolf. Period.
If that was an attempt to discredit Beserker or declare victory in your little debate over him then you have really missed the point. On top of that I am curious ask to why you would include "Pack Member" in there as if members of the Packs Den cannot hold any possible viewpoint that may surport wolves being hunted or controlled. It feels uncomfortably like your trying to poison the well so to speak and discredit him. His argument is flawed of course but it still feels like it.vrikasatma wrote:There you have it, ladies and gentlemen, a Pack member who'd sacrifice wolves for the sake of an over-romanticized ideal.Berserker wrote:To answer your question, yes, I would prefer that they be hunted, as sad and infuriating as it may be.
I rest my case.
What makes you think wolves would be any better kept then dogs? Dogs are usually aggressive if they are trained to be or receive a lack of training. It has been common for people to breed them to be "tough" animals and in the UK there have been cases of death due to Pitballs and other "tough" dog's being trained this way. It is the fualt of the owner, not the dog. Some of these dogs can be great around kids for petes sake. This also assumes homeless people could afford or even get wolves which are not easy to aquire in many areas.Personally, I'd rather see domesticated wolves than pitbulls. My city's crawling with the latter and the homeless population around here trade, breed and, yes, fight them.
Your also making the same assumption that wolves would fare any better if swapped with dogs. On top of that as I have previously stated, not many homeless people can afford wolves let alone acess a place to get them. Again it seems your probelms would be allayed if better training was given to the aframentioned dogs.They can't afford to buy dog food for them so they let them run and kill their own dinners. They're a menace to cats, other dogs, squirrels, turkeys, deer, chickens, cows, horses, and people.
Meanwhile, about 500 miles east of here in Idaho and Montana, a wolf slaughter is going on. Now you do the math and tell me which is the better scenario.
No ad hominems please.vrikasatma wrote:There you have it, ladies and gentlemen, a Pack member who'd sacrifice wolves for the sake of an over-romanticized ideal.Berserker wrote:To answer your question, yes, I would prefer that they be hunted, as sad and infuriating as it may be.
I rest my case.
Correction... the California Law mandates that a person can not be in possession of a full wolf/ and or F1 Wolf/Dog hybrid. In short if you have an F2 or above hybrid of which is a second to third generation wolf/dog hybrid or a wolf dog hybrid/hybrid, there aren't any special laws. Most breeders that legally sell wolves, usually sell F2 or above hybrids, such as this case with Fire Mountain Wolves.Uniform Two Six wrote:*cough, cough* Ummmm... hardly. Wolves are way more aggressive than domesticated dogs (the pit bull probably coming closest to being an exception). Wild wolves will quite often kill a packmate or two in the course of an average year in various dominance contests. Add in the fact that the average domesticated dog (at least in most parts of the United States) has been spayed/neutered, which tends to cut down on aggression even further. You're mistaking aggression for the statistics on domectic dog maulings. Yes, dogs have little to no fear of humans, but that's why there are so many dog maulings, not because wolves are inherently less aggressive, which they most certainly are not.vrikasatma wrote: And as we know, dogs are more aggressive than wolves, and they have no fear of humans.Not anymore. In 1997 there was a series of grisly wolf attacks upon humans in rural India. It has been fairly well documented and the wolves in question were found to be healthy. The wolves comprised a single small pack and for some unknown reason began preying upon human children... Which leads me into...Terastas wrote:Just because there has never been a documented report of a healthy wolf attacking a human being...Yeah, um... I respectfully suggest you don't try that stunt here in California. You will go straight to jail. You will not pass Go. You will not collect $200. No lie. It's actually a felony here (as in you can in fact get sentenced to more than a year of incarceration for the offense). There are extremely rare permits issued by CFG for the keeping of wild predators, but you typically have to be a zoo. Secondly, I'm sure that wolves can be raised to be very loving and entirely obedient. That was the general state of the small pack of wolves that a Vallejo, California resident was (quite illegally) keeping as pets and passing off as malamutes. This guy didn't feel that the wolves were any threat whatsoever because they greeted him at the door just like a dog would, rolled on their backs and begged for belly-rubs just like a dog would, scratched at the door when they needed to go outside just like a dog would. And then one day, when Alpha was gone (to work), Beta led the pack in digging out of the yard into a neighbor's property whereupon they entered the neighbor's house and killed a small child and then killed the elderly woman who came to the child's screams. A wolf (admittedly like some dogs in this respect) will behave submissively around a dominant human "packmate" and will go completely predatory when left to its own devices. That dude could not believe that his loving pets could turn into such vicious killers. And by the way, the jury didn't care when they sentenced him for negligent homicide.alphanubilus wrote:Firstly, ANYBODY can get a pet wolf, legally. There are several breeders where I live in Oklahoma. (what else are we Oklahomans going to do). It is NOTHING for me to be in a Pet's Mart, and see a regular family with a wolf, wolf/dog hybrid. Depending on how you raise them, they can be quite lovable.No. I have not. Wolves do NOT make good pets!alphanubilus wrote:Have any of you ever owned a wolf, or knew somebody he has? I have... It's really amazing to see so many of you preach against it, and yet I doubt hardly any of you have ever had experience.
alphanubilus wrote:Correction... the California Law mandates that a person can not be in possession of a full wolf/ and or F1 Wolf/Dog hybrid. In short if you have an F2 or above hybrid of which is a second to third generation wolf/dog hybrid or a wolf dog hybrid/hybrid, there aren't any special laws. Most breeders that legally sell wolves, usually sell F2 or above hybrids, such as this case with Fire Mountain Wolves.Uniform Two Six wrote:*cough, cough* Ummmm... hardly. Wolves are way more aggressive than domesticated dogs (the pit bull probably coming closest to being an exception). Wild wolves will quite often kill a packmate or two in the course of an average year in various dominance contests. Add in the fact that the average domesticated dog (at least in most parts of the United States) has been spayed/neutered, which tends to cut down on aggression even further. You're mistaking aggression for the statistics on domectic dog maulings. Yes, dogs have little to no fear of humans, but that's why there are so many dog maulings, not because wolves are inherently less aggressive, which they most certainly are not.vrikasatma wrote: And as we know, dogs are more aggressive than wolves, and they have no fear of humans.Not anymore. In 1997 there was a series of grisly wolf attacks upon humans in rural India. It has been fairly well documented and the wolves in question were found to be healthy. The wolves comprised a single small pack and for some unknown reason began preying upon human children... Which leads me into...Terastas wrote:Just because there has never been a documented report of a healthy wolf attacking a human being...Yeah, um... I respectfully suggest you don't try that stunt here in California. You will go straight to jail. You will not pass Go. You will not collect $200. No lie. It's actually a felony here (as in you can in fact get sentenced to more than a year of incarceration for the offense). There are extremely rare permits issued by CFG for the keeping of wild predators, but you typically have to be a zoo. Secondly, I'm sure that wolves can be raised to be very loving and entirely obedient. That was the general state of the small pack of wolves that a Vallejo, California resident was (quite illegally) keeping as pets and passing off as malamutes. This guy didn't feel that the wolves were any threat whatsoever because they greeted him at the door just like a dog would, rolled on their backs and begged for belly-rubs just like a dog would, scratched at the door when they needed to go outside just like a dog would. And then one day, when Alpha was gone (to work), Beta led the pack in digging out of the yard into a neighbor's property whereupon they entered the neighbor's house and killed a small child and then killed the elderly woman who came to the child's screams. A wolf (admittedly like some dogs in this respect) will behave submissively around a dominant human "packmate" and will go completely predatory when left to its own devices. That dude could not believe that his loving pets could turn into such vicious killers. And by the way, the jury didn't care when they sentenced him for negligent homicide.alphanubilus wrote:Firstly, ANYBODY can get a pet wolf, legally. There are several breeders where I live in Oklahoma. (what else are we Oklahomans going to do). It is NOTHING for me to be in a Pet's Mart, and see a regular family with a wolf, wolf/dog hybrid. Depending on how you raise them, they can be quite lovable.No. I have not. Wolves do NOT make good pets!alphanubilus wrote:Have any of you ever owned a wolf, or knew somebody he has? I have... It's really amazing to see so many of you preach against it, and yet I doubt hardly any of you have ever had experience.
As for the case of the unfortunate wolf owner... That can happen with ANY canine... although I would LOVE to see a man ravaged by a Pamaranian. Blade 3 still gives me chuckles... I've heard of people being attacked a mauled by Labs, of which is rather rare, but it does happen. All canines are predatory by nature. No matter that species, that inner wolf never truly goes away. I've seen German Shepherds who were loving little puppies, become vicious because somebody was at the wrong place, at the wrong time, doing the wrong thing.
Personally I think a lot of these laws are nothing more than that old anti-wolf descrimination mentality.
http://www.wolfdogalliance.org/legislat ... elaws.html
Here is a great link to see if there are any laws in your state governing the owning of wolves...
It's about as believable as an Akita dog mauling a kid. Unlikely, but apparently not impossible.Morkulv wrote:Mauled by a labrador?? Me and my family owned a black labrador for 13 years and I really find that hard to believe. Labs are easily one of the most obedient dogs, and there is a reason why they use labs as guidance dogs for blind people.
If you would have said poodles I would have believed you, since poodles are actually on the number one spot on the list of most agressive dogs... But labs? No way. Sure, any dog can bite if it wants to.