Pack Sociology and Behavior
- Faolan Ruadh
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Pack Sociology and Behavior
In what ways (and to what extent) do you thing that wolf-type social behavior ought to filter into werewolf (particularly human-formed) life? Do you think that a pack-like caste system would be used? If so, how do you think that system would be enforced/reinforced, what would determine the ranking of each member, and if not, what different system could you see existing instead?
My opinion is that this would primarilly be the tendency of groups of older werewolves that have been together longer- You might see impulses toward it in younger packs, but it would be more evident in established ones.
I also think that bringing a freshly-minted werewolf into an established pack and watching them adjust to the interpersonal flow would make for some fascinating sociodrama.
Other than the tendency toward social stratification, what other wolf social behavior would you like to see echoed in werewolves?
My opinion is that this would primarilly be the tendency of groups of older werewolves that have been together longer- You might see impulses toward it in younger packs, but it would be more evident in established ones.
I also think that bringing a freshly-minted werewolf into an established pack and watching them adjust to the interpersonal flow would make for some fascinating sociodrama.
Other than the tendency toward social stratification, what other wolf social behavior would you like to see echoed in werewolves?
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- Scott Gardener
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I would expect human social rules to apply, without neccessarily having any strictly enforced pack heirarchy. Werewolves are part human, many are born human and converted later, and human social structure, while it may in many ways parallel pack heirarchy, is more complex and allows for more adaptation--and adaptability wins.
There might none-the-less be a subconscious tendancy to sort into pack ranking, but that's also true of humans. I see it all the time, because of my therian outlook. Non-therians do it without realizing what they're doing; I'm just allowed an inside peek and the option to take advantage of my knowledge.
I suspect the same would be true in actual, literal werewolves, only more so, because of the enhanced senses beefing up the ability to read people. Werewolves would be scary poker players, and it would be hard to keep a secret from one.
"The truth is, I'm a..."
(sniff, sniff.) "...werewolf?" (shifts) "High five!" (looks at forepaw) "OK, four and a half."
There might none-the-less be a subconscious tendancy to sort into pack ranking, but that's also true of humans. I see it all the time, because of my therian outlook. Non-therians do it without realizing what they're doing; I'm just allowed an inside peek and the option to take advantage of my knowledge.
I suspect the same would be true in actual, literal werewolves, only more so, because of the enhanced senses beefing up the ability to read people. Werewolves would be scary poker players, and it would be hard to keep a secret from one.
"The truth is, I'm a..."
(sniff, sniff.) "...werewolf?" (shifts) "High five!" (looks at forepaw) "OK, four and a half."
Taking a Gestalt approach, since it's the "in" thing...
- 23Jarden
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That'd be funny. Especially if there were other human players at the table. If you really think about it, a werewolf would be a really great poker player. They'd be able to tell if you were bluffing even if you had a great poker face.
Anyway, it would probably be a wolf catse system with more humanity.
Anyway, it would probably be a wolf catse system with more humanity.
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There should be a definite leader, which all the pack members recognize as such. I don't care whether it's male or female. However, unlike an actual wolf, they would take into consideration the opinions of the pack members before making decisions for the good of the pack. They wouldn't necessarily obtain their position through dominance, I would prefer a democratic vote, but either way could work.
IMO, there should be an informal beta and omega. Everyone would know that that person is the second-in-command, or the lowest in the pack, but nobody would really say it out loud.
IMO, there should be an informal beta and omega. Everyone would know that that person is the second-in-command, or the lowest in the pack, but nobody would really say it out loud.
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i don't view werewolves as part human and part wolf. i think they are a diferent sub spieces of wolf.
now thats out of the way. i think werewolves would have packs even in human socitety. because they would have an erge to be with thier oun kind. that may bring packs and since leader ship and loyalty to thier leader is in thier genes and since the human goverment don't have any power over them or know of thier exestance.would bring a unoffical wererolf higher archy to keep things in line and make shure that some one dosen't do anything stupid to blow thier cover or get them killed.
now thats out of the way. i think werewolves would have packs even in human socitety. because they would have an erge to be with thier oun kind. that may bring packs and since leader ship and loyalty to thier leader is in thier genes and since the human goverment don't have any power over them or know of thier exestance.would bring a unoffical wererolf higher archy to keep things in line and make shure that some one dosen't do anything stupid to blow thier cover or get them killed.
Last edited by Anubis on Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- outwarddoodles
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First time with a quick reply in this forum...
I'd agree with everything Scott had said, and thats exactly what I was thinking when reading your post. The people had grown up human, or in most cases, and are very much a human. They arn't going to make a system like a wolf, they are better.
I think it would be more subconcious, someone who is better or smarter everyone is going to look up on, and eventually they'll alwaus consider thats person's opinion untill he is much like a 'leader'. It's just less knowledged people looking up on sage and wiser people. People do this all the time on their own.
as am example; Lets take our 'The Llama Club' at school, which is simply the gathering of freinds put under the title of llamas, we arn't obsessed with the beautiful creature named the llama. I'm the 'leader', no one has crowned me this, I was the creater of The Llama Club, and people always contact me with Issues of the club, and all the people in it our friends of mine, I am subconciously a leader of the club, and some of my friends are second in command, we never set that up.
I think they would be just like a pack of friends, no set order besides on how they may look apon each other.
I'd agree with everything Scott had said, and thats exactly what I was thinking when reading your post. The people had grown up human, or in most cases, and are very much a human. They arn't going to make a system like a wolf, they are better.
I think it would be more subconcious, someone who is better or smarter everyone is going to look up on, and eventually they'll alwaus consider thats person's opinion untill he is much like a 'leader'. It's just less knowledged people looking up on sage and wiser people. People do this all the time on their own.
as am example; Lets take our 'The Llama Club' at school, which is simply the gathering of freinds put under the title of llamas, we arn't obsessed with the beautiful creature named the llama. I'm the 'leader', no one has crowned me this, I was the creater of The Llama Club, and people always contact me with Issues of the club, and all the people in it our friends of mine, I am subconciously a leader of the club, and some of my friends are second in command, we never set that up.
I think they would be just like a pack of friends, no set order besides on how they may look apon each other.
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I see it the same way as Outwarddoodles and Scott. No one's ever really dubbed the leader, but everyone knows who it is: The most charasmatic person in the group that people look up too. I imagine in the "rogue packs" it'd be the guy that bullies everyone else into submission. The omega would probably be the newest member or the "doormat", the person with the least spine. I can see some packs being like me and small group of friends though. We don't really have a leader, we just follow whoever's best for the situation we're in. If I want to ask the teacher for a dollar, they all follow me. If Lydia wants to walk through the creek on the way tothe tech center, we follow her, and so on. I can see the "instinct" of having a leader though. If my friends and I all got lycanthropy we might feel the need to establish a leader.
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- vrikasatma
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A lot of people don't seem to realize that wolves aren't a single-mated pair with subordinates. That's only the base structure. Wolf social dynamics are very convuluted, as much as a human's.
The biggest diffeence ( that currently can be told ) is tha humans can control their instinctual urges through morality. Codes of honor, codes of coduct, "civilized behavior", etc..
A group's social structure is linked with both their biloigical needs for breeding, as well as their level of intelligence.
Elephants survive without their male couterparts well enough. Only 'needing them' to continue the species. But infants and juviniles needs the herd to teach them the import 'elephant dynamics' of their social group. Young bulls, once ousted from teh matriarchal herd, will look up to and learn from teh older bulls.
Lions have one, sometimes more then one male ( espeicaly if they are brothers ) that protect a territory. They chase out any other males, and some females, of other prides that incroach into their lands. Males also protect the cubs from other males who would kill them. Females will attack other females who are not of the pride if they feel the need to do so. All together the group dynamic offers alot more, then a lone pride of females.
Horses are another mentality alltogether. The head mare runs business and is more sure of herself. There are rankings withint a herd, from the upper "alphas" to the lowest ranked in the bunch. Horse herds don't -need- a stallion. They can get along just fine wihtout one. They can protect themselves from predators, and work together very well as a team unit. The Stallion offers easy acess to a powerful male who would make the best mate, because he is able to drive off any other intruders.
Wolves are often seen as a single Alpha pair who give birth to cubs the whole pack raises. While this is mostly true, there are other aspects that people are just starting to learn.
Until the alphas are bonded, the female will seek out her choice of mates. Sometime mating with the Beta, or even teh lowest rank's wolf of the pack. Sometimes, in good years, where the alpha pair are either new, don't seem to care, or are very accepting, teh beta pair, or another pair may -also- have cubs. If they pack can sustain two groups of cubs, both will flourish. If not typically only the alpha pair's cubs will flourish.
Hyena's will either kill a second set of cubs, or the alpah female will steal them from the lesser rank'd female.
heh.
Humans will remain with their families until they are olde enough to seek out their own mates. Different cultural tradtions will determine not only what happens with teh choosing of a mate, but where one lives, adn how one lives.
There is alos the instance that werewolve keep themselves as secret as possible. This could lead to an "outsider" influence on how they react and respond.
I will admit, as therian I am more comfortable and act quite differently around others who are therians. There is a level of close, physical contact that in the culture I grew up with is taboo. I can sleep in teh same bed as my 'packmates' ( for lack of a better term feh ) and not worry about any sort of "unwanted" physical contact. There is a level of respect that is unconcious. There is a level of understanding that is also unconcious.
Now the only thing is, is that not all therains may respond this way. A part of this comfort is that I am amoung others who understand me. Its mostly a psychological attitude that I am "safe", and "accepted" amoung those of my chossen group. I've had close friends growing up, btu never the sam sort of bond as I have with those of my 'pack' ( gah wish there was a better term really. it sounds so friking corney. )
Like my childhood frineds, we just 'fell intogether'. We hung out, got to know each other, learned strengths and weaknesses, etc.., Eventually a heirarchy was established that was very much unconcious. Even I at that time didn't realize it was there until years later, as I looked back.
In Highschool i was the "alpha" of my peer-age buddies. Everyone looked up to me ( for some un-godly reason I'll never understand ). When I graduated the "lunch table" dissovled completely. The old bonds that were there were destroyed as people unconciously "fought" for a new heirachy after the "alpha" left. It saddened me, but it was understood that this happens. :/
Outside of school was another totally different group. I was "upper echolean" but only by acceptence of thsoe who were "alphas". I was put in a higher level then teh kids, but was made baby sitter often ;) *chuckles* I was teh 'second/beta' to the oldest daughter, but gamma or lower to the rest fo teh group since I wasn't blood-kin. i was 'adopted'. ;)
She was gamma to the other "Mothers", and that group was more of a elephant herd mentality ( as most were either divorced, or had kids by someone who left them ), with few males allowed into the social structure. Those that were, were our guardians adn they took their jobs seriously.
It was very redneck in some ways, Dukes of Hazzard style. ;) *laughs*
But the social structure was there. Very convuluted.
Wolves have a very simialr convuluted life style. If one studies them they'd see a near soap-opera style drama enacted.
I agree with many of teh above sentiments. What I see, though, is a very human socail dynamic enforced not by a codified set of laws or rules.., but by social accpetence that is far mroe obvious then in human society.
Example:
Jack brinsg his girl home for dinner, after his "werewolf parent/s" find out about his plan. They ignore her for teh most part, being very terse and curt with any conversation. They treat her with distain.
Now many human familiies will do this anyways, but having it emphazied more in body language and attitude would make it seem "out of place". Jack's need for acceptence from his "werewofl paretn/s" would seem out of place, once she foudn out that they weren't his actual mom and dad ( unless he was bored ).
I for one know this acceptenc issue very well, as my own family distergrated and I was "adopted" by friends. My previous ex's got a bit put off when they were treated bad by my "friends". Not realizing, nor understanding that they were my extended adoptive family, and just as important to me as my blood kin. They never could stand the hazing. heh.
in a way, how it soudn sounds now, is that being bitten/born brings you into a lifestyle that is somewhat different, btu not hard to totally understand. Yuo become a part of a group that is more bond to uncocnious body cues, and respect "tradtions" then most othe rhuman beings. ;)
In a way I see is as strengthing older hierarchy styles. One respects one's elders ( cause they know more then you silly ), and is loyal to "the family"
The biggest diffeence ( that currently can be told ) is tha humans can control their instinctual urges through morality. Codes of honor, codes of coduct, "civilized behavior", etc..
A group's social structure is linked with both their biloigical needs for breeding, as well as their level of intelligence.
Elephants survive without their male couterparts well enough. Only 'needing them' to continue the species. But infants and juviniles needs the herd to teach them the import 'elephant dynamics' of their social group. Young bulls, once ousted from teh matriarchal herd, will look up to and learn from teh older bulls.
Lions have one, sometimes more then one male ( espeicaly if they are brothers ) that protect a territory. They chase out any other males, and some females, of other prides that incroach into their lands. Males also protect the cubs from other males who would kill them. Females will attack other females who are not of the pride if they feel the need to do so. All together the group dynamic offers alot more, then a lone pride of females.
Horses are another mentality alltogether. The head mare runs business and is more sure of herself. There are rankings withint a herd, from the upper "alphas" to the lowest ranked in the bunch. Horse herds don't -need- a stallion. They can get along just fine wihtout one. They can protect themselves from predators, and work together very well as a team unit. The Stallion offers easy acess to a powerful male who would make the best mate, because he is able to drive off any other intruders.
Wolves are often seen as a single Alpha pair who give birth to cubs the whole pack raises. While this is mostly true, there are other aspects that people are just starting to learn.
Until the alphas are bonded, the female will seek out her choice of mates. Sometime mating with the Beta, or even teh lowest rank's wolf of the pack. Sometimes, in good years, where the alpha pair are either new, don't seem to care, or are very accepting, teh beta pair, or another pair may -also- have cubs. If they pack can sustain two groups of cubs, both will flourish. If not typically only the alpha pair's cubs will flourish.
Hyena's will either kill a second set of cubs, or the alpah female will steal them from the lesser rank'd female.
heh.
Humans will remain with their families until they are olde enough to seek out their own mates. Different cultural tradtions will determine not only what happens with teh choosing of a mate, but where one lives, adn how one lives.
There is alos the instance that werewolve keep themselves as secret as possible. This could lead to an "outsider" influence on how they react and respond.
I will admit, as therian I am more comfortable and act quite differently around others who are therians. There is a level of close, physical contact that in the culture I grew up with is taboo. I can sleep in teh same bed as my 'packmates' ( for lack of a better term feh ) and not worry about any sort of "unwanted" physical contact. There is a level of respect that is unconcious. There is a level of understanding that is also unconcious.
Now the only thing is, is that not all therains may respond this way. A part of this comfort is that I am amoung others who understand me. Its mostly a psychological attitude that I am "safe", and "accepted" amoung those of my chossen group. I've had close friends growing up, btu never the sam sort of bond as I have with those of my 'pack' ( gah wish there was a better term really. it sounds so friking corney. )
Like my childhood frineds, we just 'fell intogether'. We hung out, got to know each other, learned strengths and weaknesses, etc.., Eventually a heirarchy was established that was very much unconcious. Even I at that time didn't realize it was there until years later, as I looked back.
In Highschool i was the "alpha" of my peer-age buddies. Everyone looked up to me ( for some un-godly reason I'll never understand ). When I graduated the "lunch table" dissovled completely. The old bonds that were there were destroyed as people unconciously "fought" for a new heirachy after the "alpha" left. It saddened me, but it was understood that this happens. :/
Outside of school was another totally different group. I was "upper echolean" but only by acceptence of thsoe who were "alphas". I was put in a higher level then teh kids, but was made baby sitter often ;) *chuckles* I was teh 'second/beta' to the oldest daughter, but gamma or lower to the rest fo teh group since I wasn't blood-kin. i was 'adopted'. ;)
She was gamma to the other "Mothers", and that group was more of a elephant herd mentality ( as most were either divorced, or had kids by someone who left them ), with few males allowed into the social structure. Those that were, were our guardians adn they took their jobs seriously.
It was very redneck in some ways, Dukes of Hazzard style. ;) *laughs*
But the social structure was there. Very convuluted.
Wolves have a very simialr convuluted life style. If one studies them they'd see a near soap-opera style drama enacted.
I agree with many of teh above sentiments. What I see, though, is a very human socail dynamic enforced not by a codified set of laws or rules.., but by social accpetence that is far mroe obvious then in human society.
Example:
Jack brinsg his girl home for dinner, after his "werewolf parent/s" find out about his plan. They ignore her for teh most part, being very terse and curt with any conversation. They treat her with distain.
Now many human familiies will do this anyways, but having it emphazied more in body language and attitude would make it seem "out of place". Jack's need for acceptence from his "werewofl paretn/s" would seem out of place, once she foudn out that they weren't his actual mom and dad ( unless he was bored ).
I for one know this acceptenc issue very well, as my own family distergrated and I was "adopted" by friends. My previous ex's got a bit put off when they were treated bad by my "friends". Not realizing, nor understanding that they were my extended adoptive family, and just as important to me as my blood kin. They never could stand the hazing. heh.
in a way, how it soudn sounds now, is that being bitten/born brings you into a lifestyle that is somewhat different, btu not hard to totally understand. Yuo become a part of a group that is more bond to uncocnious body cues, and respect "tradtions" then most othe rhuman beings. ;)
In a way I see is as strengthing older hierarchy styles. One respects one's elders ( cause they know more then you silly ), and is loyal to "the family"
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- outwarddoodles
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Well, as I said I think the werewolves would keep a more human way of meeting, more like a group of friends, while there is posibly a great chance theres going to be more reasons to look up on others. A new werewolf is really going to need to look up on the experainced werewolves, and they are going to be looked down apon, thus making them having a 'lower ranking' when not really thinking of that at all. Just that the werewolf is newer and less knowledged.
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*nods*
Maybe teh instinct for "needing a place to be" wil be far stronger then it is in most of human society.
Maybe teh instinct for "needing a place to be" wil be far stronger then it is in most of human society.
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- Terastas
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There would be a system of rank, though it wouldn't be nearly as obvious as it is among wolf packs. You could define it in terms of alpha, beta and omega, although werewolves themselves would not use these terms.
If you've ever watched any season of Survivor, you've definitely heard a team attribute their lack of success in a challenge to a lack of leadership. When we lack proper skills or do not know how to properly handle a particular situation, we tend to instead put our faith in anyone that appears to know what to do better than we do. In the case of werewolves, anyone that has had lycanthropy longer than most, or who can offer the pack something nobody else can, will become the unofficial alpha. In a sense, the alpha is just the one werewolf that knows everyone else in the pack, like the aunt that always has Thanksgiving at her place every year; the first one the rest of the pack alerts when there's a problem, wether they need his/her help or not; just making sure the rest of the pack stays informed.
The betas in this case would be people that have talents they can offer the pack, but which can not stand alone or which they could use some coordinative assistance to put to work to benefit the pack; this is where the alpha comes in. So if you think about it, the alpha and betas serve the pack, and the alpha keeps them coordinated.
Skip all the way down to the omega, the easiest to define. If alphas and betas are problem solvers, omegas are problematic. In wolf packs, the omega is not just one wolf that the rest can gang up on whenever they have a bee under their tail; they are treated just as well as the cubs of the pack. A werewolf omega would be just that; someone that has absolutely no clue how to handle themselves and will require supervision until further notice.
If you've ever watched any season of Survivor, you've definitely heard a team attribute their lack of success in a challenge to a lack of leadership. When we lack proper skills or do not know how to properly handle a particular situation, we tend to instead put our faith in anyone that appears to know what to do better than we do. In the case of werewolves, anyone that has had lycanthropy longer than most, or who can offer the pack something nobody else can, will become the unofficial alpha. In a sense, the alpha is just the one werewolf that knows everyone else in the pack, like the aunt that always has Thanksgiving at her place every year; the first one the rest of the pack alerts when there's a problem, wether they need his/her help or not; just making sure the rest of the pack stays informed.
The betas in this case would be people that have talents they can offer the pack, but which can not stand alone or which they could use some coordinative assistance to put to work to benefit the pack; this is where the alpha comes in. So if you think about it, the alpha and betas serve the pack, and the alpha keeps them coordinated.
Skip all the way down to the omega, the easiest to define. If alphas and betas are problem solvers, omegas are problematic. In wolf packs, the omega is not just one wolf that the rest can gang up on whenever they have a bee under their tail; they are treated just as well as the cubs of the pack. A werewolf omega would be just that; someone that has absolutely no clue how to handle themselves and will require supervision until further notice.
- Scott Gardener
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Survivor: Planet Utopia
Survivor, as popular as it may be even among psychology circles, is a poor example of usual social dynamics, because it is an artificial set of circumstances specifically designed to bring out the worst in people--backstabbing, betrayal, pettiness, and all the other crap of prime-time network Contrived-Reality shows. I suspect that the gripes about poor leadership were part of that, in an effort to vie for the alpha position.
I doubt I'd last long in a Survivor setting, as I'd be too honest and up-front. I'd get voted off pretty quickly, because I wouldn't create fake friendships leading up to betrayal, and I wouldn't participate in "let's agree not to vote against each other" schemes.
I doubt I'd last long in a Survivor setting, as I'd be too honest and up-front. I'd get voted off pretty quickly, because I wouldn't create fake friendships leading up to betrayal, and I wouldn't participate in "let's agree not to vote against each other" schemes.
Taking a Gestalt approach, since it's the "in" thing...
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Re: Survivor: Planet Utopia
*nods* That's what the final episodes are like, but when they divide the team into two different tribes and only the losing team has to vote someone off, the winning team is most often the better coordinated, and the first person they turn against is usually the one that's either wearing on their nerves or the one that screwed up on the challenge. Plus, more than once someone has been voted off for trying to establish themselves as a leader by force, much like a wolf pack will cast out an abusive alpha.Scott Gardener wrote:Survivor, as popular as it may be even among psychology circles, is a poor example of usual social dynamics, because it is an artificial set of circumstances specifically designed to bring out the worst in people--backstabbing, betrayal, pettiness, and all the other crap of prime-time network Contrived-Reality shows. I suspect that the gripes about poor leadership were part of that, in an effort to vie for the alpha position.
I doubt I'd last long in a Survivor setting, as I'd be too honest and up-front. I'd get voted off pretty quickly, because I wouldn't create fake friendships leading up to betrayal, and I wouldn't participate in "let's agree not to vote against each other" schemes.
It's when they unify the tribes that the backstabbing starts.
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There was a Survivor contestant that also went to Burning Man. She wore a Burning Man necklace that was gifted to her the year before and her luxury item was a drum. We had a big discussion on her on one of the Burning Man fora, and lots of people in the community followed the show when she was on.
The biggest point of discussion was that her personal skills as a Burner were the polar opposite of what it took to make it in Survivor: in Burning Man cooperation, generosity, et al, are emphasized. If you can't get along with the other people in the group, by the middle of the week you're going to swear you're in hell. The only real advantage she had, we figured, was that Burning Man prepared her to work hard in a hot, desert-like environment. I didn't watch that season, but personally I was surprised she lasted as long as she did. Several others expressed surprise, too.
One of the Survivors lives in Santa Cruz, where I'm from, and my Mom's met him a couple times grocery shopping. She followed the show when he was on and says he's really nice in person.
The biggest point of discussion was that her personal skills as a Burner were the polar opposite of what it took to make it in Survivor: in Burning Man cooperation, generosity, et al, are emphasized. If you can't get along with the other people in the group, by the middle of the week you're going to swear you're in hell. The only real advantage she had, we figured, was that Burning Man prepared her to work hard in a hot, desert-like environment. I didn't watch that season, but personally I was surprised she lasted as long as she did. Several others expressed surprise, too.
One of the Survivors lives in Santa Cruz, where I'm from, and my Mom's met him a couple times grocery shopping. She followed the show when he was on and says he's really nice in person.
A point which doesn't appear to have come up yet is favoritism, i. e. an alpha or beta wolf taking a lower-ranking packmate under their wing. I've heard about it happening in a wolfpack, and it happens in human society every single day, hour and minute.
Let's say there's this guy who's stronger or smarter than the rest, and then there's his good friend, who pretty much a loser in every way. If they were completely separate individuals the strong guy would most likely be waving from the top of the status ladder while the loser was stuck being an omega. But, because they're friends, the little guy can trust the big one to back him up, so his word actually has some weight too.
I'm just wondering how far would this kind of "protection" reach? Who would the little guy be able to boss around? Only those who were on the same rank as him? Everyone who was lower than his friend?
Let's say there's this guy who's stronger or smarter than the rest, and then there's his good friend, who pretty much a loser in every way. If they were completely separate individuals the strong guy would most likely be waving from the top of the status ladder while the loser was stuck being an omega. But, because they're friends, the little guy can trust the big one to back him up, so his word actually has some weight too.
I'm just wondering how far would this kind of "protection" reach? Who would the little guy be able to boss around? Only those who were on the same rank as him? Everyone who was lower than his friend?
- Terastas
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You make a good point, but if the only thing you have to base your rank on in a werewolf pack is trust and respect, the little guy is still the omega because the rest of the pack doesn't think too highly of him.Merrypaws wrote:A point which doesn't appear to have come up yet is favoritism, i. e. an alpha or beta wolf taking a lower-ranking packmate under their wing. I've heard about it happening in a wolfpack, and it happens in human society every single day, hour and minute.
Let's say there's this guy who's stronger or smarter than the rest, and then there's his good friend, who pretty much a loser in every way. If they were completely separate individuals the strong guy would most likely be waving from the top of the status ladder while the loser was stuck being an omega. But, because they're friends, the little guy can trust the big one to back him up, so his word actually has some weight too.
I'm just wondering how far would this kind of "protection" reach? Who would the little guy be able to boss around? Only those who were on the same rank as him? Everyone who was lower than his friend?
What I could caution everyone is not to think of a werewolf omega as the werewolf that everybody hates -- those guys usually become strays. The omega werewolf is, more or less, the werewolf that needs the most support. This may generate some dislike over time, but more often than not, the omega would be the member of the pack that everyone cautions each other to not be so hard on.
It might also be that, since the position of alpha is unnofficial and a result of consensus as opposed to self-appointment (a werewolf may be the alpha and not know it), if a werewolf gives into favoratism to someone the rest of the pack doesn't feel deserves it, they'll stop thinking of him/her as an alpha, start informing each other directly whenever something comes up instead of alerting the alpha to call everyone else, and eventually one of the other werewolves will shine through enough times that the rest of the pack will begin to think of him/her as the alpha instead. The old alpha may admire the new alpha for taking responsibility and not even know he was dethroned, or since they end up leaving he and the omega out a lot, he might not even know there was a change in position until he gets a phone call from the new alpha saying: "Jack, Pack meeting; get your a** over here."
- vrikasatma
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I had a Shadow Lord character that did stuff like that. She'd protect the underdog of the pack and say she was doing it so he had a chance to become strong.
Meanwhile she'd ingrain into him a sort of...gratitude. Vis-a-vis, she wanted him to rise to the top so she could get him over a barrel and puppetmaster him. Damn, those Crow-aspected Shadow Lords!
Meanwhile she'd ingrain into him a sort of...gratitude. Vis-a-vis, she wanted him to rise to the top so she could get him over a barrel and puppetmaster him. Damn, those Crow-aspected Shadow Lords!
- Rein
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If you watch people, really watch them, and many animal groups, they all have a pack mentality. Any animals that cluster in groups fall into this, there is always an "alpha" set. Most people don't see it or fully recognize it, but as I said, if you watch people and animals it happens. (I'll use the people example because its the one I and everyone else here are most familiar with).
At the base example, watch people when they walk, in groups of 2 or more, without paying attention, they will instintively fall in step. They don't have to be next to one another, just close by, even people who don't know one another from anything. They will fall in step like a military formation, and then lose it for a few steps and then will fall in step again. They will be in step more often and longer than being out of step. It's pack mentality left in our being from bygone ages. This is most amazing to watch in large cities like New York.
When your with your friends, there is always one person you look to. Your right in that a temporary "Alphaship" will shift in respect for the one with the know for what is needed, but it will always default back to the true alpha. It's not always the most charasmatic individual, the strongest, the smartest, its an instinctual response to one individual that provides a sense of umbrella saftey to the rest. Its a deeper strength that may be a mix of dominate needed characterists or a quieter respect. It's a "scent" of dominance, whether you smell it or not. Watch yourself and your friends, "alphaship" may shift, but there will always be one polar center that everyone goes back to. Alphaship can't be lost, I believe, in the extreme yes, but I don't see walking with the Omega as a loss of status.
Omega status is hard to define. Omega is poor hunter, the annoying brat, the one that talks to much about everything and nothing, the one with some physical or mental deficincy. The Omega, amongest humans at least, more often than not is the one trying the hardest for approval amongest the group. An Omega, with the right omens, i.e. great moments in life which change you, can evolve and some day be alpha. Maybe not for the present or old pack, but others will be drawn to that individual.
Alpha is the center of saftey in its greatest form, Omega is the lessons to be learned. Whether those lessons are for the Omega, or through the Omega they are lessons for the pack. Watch people, think about how they interact, how you and your friends interact and you will see this.
My greatest experiences came from when I was in the Marine Corps. I've always loved watching indiviuals and groups. How they react to their environment. Being in the military, your forced to be closer with one another, whether you like it or not. People who piss you off and enrage you sometimes become your best and most trusted friends. The military is one of the greatest examples of the Pack mentality. You bond and protect one another, even the Omega. I personally watched 3 other packs in my platoon, not counting mine, when we weren't in fire teams. As a fire team, this certainly showed more distinctly as words became almost unnecessary. You could interpret and feel the movements of one another because it was instinct. This also holds true for close friends.
Life is a naturalist study and is more complicated than any book or individual can truley describe. Watch the movements of those around you and close to you. These are the best examples I can point to, because sadly, even my descriptions and examples fall woefully short of the intricies of life I've tried to describe.
May your eyes always be open.
At the base example, watch people when they walk, in groups of 2 or more, without paying attention, they will instintively fall in step. They don't have to be next to one another, just close by, even people who don't know one another from anything. They will fall in step like a military formation, and then lose it for a few steps and then will fall in step again. They will be in step more often and longer than being out of step. It's pack mentality left in our being from bygone ages. This is most amazing to watch in large cities like New York.
When your with your friends, there is always one person you look to. Your right in that a temporary "Alphaship" will shift in respect for the one with the know for what is needed, but it will always default back to the true alpha. It's not always the most charasmatic individual, the strongest, the smartest, its an instinctual response to one individual that provides a sense of umbrella saftey to the rest. Its a deeper strength that may be a mix of dominate needed characterists or a quieter respect. It's a "scent" of dominance, whether you smell it or not. Watch yourself and your friends, "alphaship" may shift, but there will always be one polar center that everyone goes back to. Alphaship can't be lost, I believe, in the extreme yes, but I don't see walking with the Omega as a loss of status.
Omega status is hard to define. Omega is poor hunter, the annoying brat, the one that talks to much about everything and nothing, the one with some physical or mental deficincy. The Omega, amongest humans at least, more often than not is the one trying the hardest for approval amongest the group. An Omega, with the right omens, i.e. great moments in life which change you, can evolve and some day be alpha. Maybe not for the present or old pack, but others will be drawn to that individual.
Alpha is the center of saftey in its greatest form, Omega is the lessons to be learned. Whether those lessons are for the Omega, or through the Omega they are lessons for the pack. Watch people, think about how they interact, how you and your friends interact and you will see this.
My greatest experiences came from when I was in the Marine Corps. I've always loved watching indiviuals and groups. How they react to their environment. Being in the military, your forced to be closer with one another, whether you like it or not. People who piss you off and enrage you sometimes become your best and most trusted friends. The military is one of the greatest examples of the Pack mentality. You bond and protect one another, even the Omega. I personally watched 3 other packs in my platoon, not counting mine, when we weren't in fire teams. As a fire team, this certainly showed more distinctly as words became almost unnecessary. You could interpret and feel the movements of one another because it was instinct. This also holds true for close friends.
Life is a naturalist study and is more complicated than any book or individual can truley describe. Watch the movements of those around you and close to you. These are the best examples I can point to, because sadly, even my descriptions and examples fall woefully short of the intricies of life I've tried to describe.
May your eyes always be open.
Rarely does the heart of the beast match the skin that it wears. But it's said, where there's a will, there's a way.
In my opinion, not much would be different. The reason I have for believing this is that all animals that are ever found in a group, humans included, have a dominance hierarchy. In fact, if you read about the dominance hierarchy that exists in any group of humans, it is amazingly like that of wolves (much more like it than the dominance hierarchy in a herd of horses, for example).In what ways (and to what extent) do you thing that wolf-type social behavior ought to filter into werewolf (particularly human-formed) life? Do you think that a pack-like caste system would be used? If so, how do you think that system would be enforced/reinforced, what would determine the ranking of each member, and if not, what different system could you see existing instead?
Read about how social scientists study human dominance hierarchies, and you'll see a lot of the same things that they talk about in wolves. Subordinate members do little subordinant displays involving body language when they enter the presence of a more dominant individual, there are different (but intertwined in complex ways) dominance hierarchies for the males in a group and the females in a group, and "alpha" members can be picked out with ease by an experienced social scientist who watches group interactions for any length of time.
The only big difference between human dominance hierarchies and lupine dominance hierarchies is that in humans, people are sometimes given an artificially inflated status that does not reflect their real position. For example, a low-ranking human in a job setting might be made the boss of highly dominant underlings. When this happens in humans, it leads to endless conflict unless the boss can manage to increase his or her real dominance status.
What does this all mean? It means that a werewolf pack would probably have a status hierarchy, complete with a male alpha and a female alpha. But, the werewolves would be unlikely to be consciously aware of this fact unless they went out of their way to pay a lot of attention to it. It also means that their social interactions would probably resemble what they would be like as humans, except that lupine body-language signals would be added to their human body-language signals.
It also means that werewolf dominance hierarchies would probably not be like they are portrayed in most books, with the hierarchy itself leading to endless power struggles and fights as werewolves try to move up in ranking. This is because the prime purpose of dominance hierarchies in nature, in any species of animal, is to prevent conflict. Dominance heirarchies tend to to stable most of the time, and they promote peace. So you would likely not see werewolves fighting over "alpha" status all the time.
-Jamie Hall
Do you like monsters? See Monster Mania!
Do you like monsters? See Monster Mania!
- NarnianWolfen
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I see werewolves forming a pack because of what they have it common. It makes sense to me to protect a secret, and I'd rather loop myself in with others bearing my same burden. I know they'd understand.
Since I don't transform and I'm just a therian, I don't have to worry so much about my burden..the therianthrope community is a huge one. But as a human AND as a therian, I do tend to see pack connections more easily. I have a story similar to Trinity's.
In high school, there was a group. I was a part of this group for three years, and I always refered to it as my pack. We had a very specific alpha, and a particular heirarchy. I was one of the higher ranks, a beta, alongside the alpha's best friend and his girl. Over three years as he and I got closer to graduating (we were both the oldest), the pack started to disintegrate and become more snappy with each other, and subtle leadership battles started. I know none of them saw it this way, but because I've researched pack behavior in wolves, it was easier for me to step back and observe. When he and I graduated this year, the pack fell apart and scattered. I got to keep track through my friend Sera, who kept me updated on everybody. What was even more interesting is that when the old alpha and I went back to visit this year, the whole pack flocked to us and sat around like they always had, and people that'd been fighting before got along quite well. When we left again, things crumpled. It was a fascinating experience, from the psychological standpoint. Everyone's loyalty to our 'alpha' was complete..he was very obviously boss. His girlfriend of two years treated us horribly, but we tolerated her because we loved him. She caused a lot of distress within our group, as an overaggressive b**** with a passive alpha male might. When she was gone, things settled back into a normal routine. When one of the 'higher ranks' was absent or in a foul mood, it affected everybody. Not all 'packs' are as obvious, however, but I still think they exist. I think with werewolves it might be more pronounced, but not obvious in public, when the werewolves would be in danger of discovery. Now that I'm without my pack, I feel lost and lonely, and I was glad to be able to visit them again. Even if it meant walking through the school I've never liked much. ;)
Since I don't transform and I'm just a therian, I don't have to worry so much about my burden..the therianthrope community is a huge one. But as a human AND as a therian, I do tend to see pack connections more easily. I have a story similar to Trinity's.
In high school, there was a group. I was a part of this group for three years, and I always refered to it as my pack. We had a very specific alpha, and a particular heirarchy. I was one of the higher ranks, a beta, alongside the alpha's best friend and his girl. Over three years as he and I got closer to graduating (we were both the oldest), the pack started to disintegrate and become more snappy with each other, and subtle leadership battles started. I know none of them saw it this way, but because I've researched pack behavior in wolves, it was easier for me to step back and observe. When he and I graduated this year, the pack fell apart and scattered. I got to keep track through my friend Sera, who kept me updated on everybody. What was even more interesting is that when the old alpha and I went back to visit this year, the whole pack flocked to us and sat around like they always had, and people that'd been fighting before got along quite well. When we left again, things crumpled. It was a fascinating experience, from the psychological standpoint. Everyone's loyalty to our 'alpha' was complete..he was very obviously boss. His girlfriend of two years treated us horribly, but we tolerated her because we loved him. She caused a lot of distress within our group, as an overaggressive b**** with a passive alpha male might. When she was gone, things settled back into a normal routine. When one of the 'higher ranks' was absent or in a foul mood, it affected everybody. Not all 'packs' are as obvious, however, but I still think they exist. I think with werewolves it might be more pronounced, but not obvious in public, when the werewolves would be in danger of discovery. Now that I'm without my pack, I feel lost and lonely, and I was glad to be able to visit them again. Even if it meant walking through the school I've never liked much. ;)
~Kate
"She should not lock the open door (run away run away run away!), full moon is on the sky and he's not a man anymore...sees the change in him but can't (run away run away run away) see what became out of her man...full moon!"
"She should not lock the open door (run away run away run away!), full moon is on the sky and he's not a man anymore...sees the change in him but can't (run away run away run away) see what became out of her man...full moon!"
actually, as far as my research into wolf behavior goes, socially speaking, wolves are about the same as us, or at least how we used to be. nowadays in our 'civilized' culture, family and friends are viewed as something unnessecary, or at least the connection's values have diminished.
in wolf societies, a pack is simply friends and family with a leader. every member has a point and purpose, such as hunting, gathering, and rearing pups. the alpha wolf is the strongest and most cunning of the group and leads the pack.
now, in ancient nomadic civilizations, there was basically the same thing. family and friends helping eachother survive. each member had a purpose of either hunting, gathering, or rearing children. and there was generally a leader, who was typically the strongest and most cunning of the group.
so, my point is that it doesn't take much translation between human society and wolf society to create a werewolf society. if there was any difference AT ALL, it would be that werewolves would stay close to family and friends more than normal humans might. but that's also rather appealing to most people, i mean, who doesn't want a loyal friend or lover?
~Celtwolf
in wolf societies, a pack is simply friends and family with a leader. every member has a point and purpose, such as hunting, gathering, and rearing pups. the alpha wolf is the strongest and most cunning of the group and leads the pack.
now, in ancient nomadic civilizations, there was basically the same thing. family and friends helping eachother survive. each member had a purpose of either hunting, gathering, or rearing children. and there was generally a leader, who was typically the strongest and most cunning of the group.
so, my point is that it doesn't take much translation between human society and wolf society to create a werewolf society. if there was any difference AT ALL, it would be that werewolves would stay close to family and friends more than normal humans might. but that's also rather appealing to most people, i mean, who doesn't want a loyal friend or lover?
~Celtwolf
i'm just stating what i know and what i think, if you don't like it, you can leave me alone.
i am the well-read werewolf
Hmmmm...
As someone who fit into none of the peer groups in school, I can definitly agree with the statment that humans form 'packs' with a definite alpha (usually an 'alpha pair') a beta or three, everyone else more or less of equal rank, though it's constantly shifting about. there's usually a few omegas clinging to the edge, this is ESPECIALLY true with Popular kids, jocks and the like, the ones tha tmost kids WANT to be a part of. There are usually very few omegas in the 'weird kid' groups, or the 'teachers pets' or the like.
However, there are people that enjoy being loners (much like coyotes, or foxes and their kin) and some people (the 'outcast' cliques especially) are usually much more relaxed and open then the rigid 'pack' strucutre. More like the african hunting dog, with no real omega class, and... well, just overall relaxed and 'friendly'.
Question: Would canine 'traits' show up in human behavior? Human cultures tend to bow and show the BACK of the neck to show subserviance. Would werewolf culture be the exposing of the front of the neck?
And conversly, would human cultural traits show up in 'wolf' form?
Also, would a pack that lives in the city have a more rigid pack structure then wolves that live in rural areas, or would the inverse be true?
Would WW be more or less vicious towards 'strays', and how hard would it be for a mated pair that want to strike out on their own and thus become strays/alphas to leave?
However, there are people that enjoy being loners (much like coyotes, or foxes and their kin) and some people (the 'outcast' cliques especially) are usually much more relaxed and open then the rigid 'pack' strucutre. More like the african hunting dog, with no real omega class, and... well, just overall relaxed and 'friendly'.
Question: Would canine 'traits' show up in human behavior? Human cultures tend to bow and show the BACK of the neck to show subserviance. Would werewolf culture be the exposing of the front of the neck?
And conversly, would human cultural traits show up in 'wolf' form?
Also, would a pack that lives in the city have a more rigid pack structure then wolves that live in rural areas, or would the inverse be true?
Would WW be more or less vicious towards 'strays', and how hard would it be for a mated pair that want to strike out on their own and thus become strays/alphas to leave?