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This is just a topic I felt like doing pertaining to the lifespan of a werewolf. I have a feeling that this was probably discussed before, but, so far, I haven't come across it in my browsing of this forum. But, if it's already been discussed extensively, a moderator can delete this topic.

Basically I'm just wondering why werwolves can't be immortal. Personally, I would like them to have pretty long lifespans, but not exactly eternal. I just never liked the prospect of something, theoretically, living forever. They may have lifespans even reaching two hundred, but that would be pretty old, if one happened to reach that point.

What do you all think?

If you accept the Werewolf as being "Robust" (as in tougher than average) and "Strong" (in other than a muscular sense) there is no reason not to combine them and give a werewolf a longer than standard human lifespan.
My Wulfen series Werewolves live an average of 120-130 years; longer than standard human but not immortal. Given (1) the "fact" that they are at risk from standard humans and (2) the stress of the Shift on a regular basis; they probably live about that long and then die; worn out.

As for aging: The nucleus of the cell contains structures called "teleomeres" which degrade as the cell divides and eventually prevent the cell from dividing at all. Since Humans and Wolves both have these structures, there is no reason to assume that a Werewolf wouldn't have them too. Thus the Wulf ages.
I suspect that eventually arthritis or senility get to the werewolf, and shifting becomes problematic or even too painful. Senility would either rob the Wulf of its human part or the human of his wulf parts.
Either way, in time a werewolf will die...and new were's will be born; and life will go on...

Ah, telomeres, the plastic bits on the end of the shoelace that is you. At least that's how my science teacher explained it.

For me personally, I'm sort of the opinion that for a werewolf, they would live as long as at least one side of their dual selves still lives. Ie, they can spend a month transformed, but when they are people-shaped again, that month doesn't count against their age since it wasn't 'them'. So, if they only spend half their time as human, they might have been a werewolf for 50 years but only aged twenty five. It applies to both forms, and also for things like mind control, disease, and even injury.
Theoretically, that might allow them to survive for over a hundred years, assuming they divide their time between forms efficiently.

Or something, it's an idea I've been toying with. Essentially, they can't die unless they both die. Ie, if they are people-shaped and get hit by a runaway oxcart and break multiple bones, they can transform and the injuries would be gone. However, once they transform back, those injuries are back. However, their dual-nature means that they can heal from almost any injury that doesn't affect both forms. A hand/foot that's chopped off will regrow eventually as long as their wolf-self doesn't lose the corresponding paw. Similarly, my vampires would function much the same, except they'd be taking other people's vitality/lifeforce instead.
Magic, and stuff. How does that sound to you?

I voted the 200-300 range, though I think that would only be the age at which a werewolf would pass on of natural causes. The werewolves I've been writing about remain healthy all throughout their lives, but none of them have made it beyond the age of seventy before getting killed, exposed, or just plain sick of life in general and need to disappear.

As such, the werewolves don't actually know how long it takes for a werewolf to grow old. Lycanthropic immortality doesn't guarantee that they'll live forever; only that their inevitable death will be anything but peaceful.

I voted for "Slightly Higher than Human lifespan (100-150 yrs)."

From my (outdated) werewolf definition:

For the most part, the werewolf lifespan is a good 15-20 years longer than that of humans.

Pretty good ideas so far. I really liked your idea, Wingman. Something about it just jumped out at me. Although, many would argue the details, including myself. But, I still like it.

Celestialwolf wrote:I voted for "Slightly Higher than Human lifespan (100-150 yrs)."

From my (outdated) werewolf definition:

For the most part, the werewolf lifespan is a good 15-20 years longer than that of humans.

I'd say this as well.

I'd say the werewolf's augmented healing and boosted immune system would give him a better lifespan than normal (much like modern medicine has done the same for mundane humans) - simply longevity through better health. I'd also say that (Should they remain active enough) they'd like remain pretty fit pretty far into old age.

But I can't really see any particularly long lived weres. No real reason for lycanthropy to make your telomeres longer unless "applies telemerase to telomeres" is included in the "fix your broken bits!" part of lycanthropy.

But I'm not big on that idea. Werewolves really don't strike me as eternal monster sorts. That's the domain of things like vampires and dragons - elaborate schemes spanning centuries. Werewolves are creatures of the here and now.

Aki wrote:But I can't really see any particularly long lived weres. No real reason for lycanthropy to make your telomeres longer unless "applies telemerase to telomeres" is included in the "fix your broken bits!" part of lycanthropy.

It would depend on how you interpreted aging, and whether or not you agreed that lycanthropes are regenerative. If you think of aging as just a gradual decay from overuse, then it could be reversed continually by lycanthropic regeneration. A werewolf may simply reach the age where they would start to grow old, then stop aging altogether.

The only thing lycanthropy couldn't do is keep the werewolf's mind sharp and current with the times. Which would increase a werewolf's chances of dying of unnatural causes as opposed to balancing out their aging.

The closest thing to "dying of old age" I think a werewolf would ever come to would be killing themselves once they decide for themselves that they've lived long enough. I put 200+ as my vote even though I could picture lycanthropic regeneration equating to immortality, but the reality is that I simply can't imagine anyone being able (or wanting) to live any longer than that.

If anything, I think 'real' werewolves would have a shorter lifespan then a human being. Regular wolves in the wild don't grow very old as well; the more 'wild' you live, the shorter the lifespan is usually the case with mammals, so I don't see why this shouldn't apply to werewolves.

Morkulv wrote:If anything, I think 'real' werewolves would have a shorter lifespan then a human being. Regular wolves in the wild don't grow very old as well; the more 'wild' you live, the shorter the lifespan is usually the case with mammals, so I don't see why this shouldn't apply to werewolves.

*nods* Animals don't grow old in the wild because once they even start to show signs of their age, they fall behind; the herbivores that can't outrun the carnivores get eaten, and the carnivores that can't run down the herbivores go hungry.

Most werewolves wouldn't live long enough to grow old for similar reasons, although the kind of problems a werewolf would probably thin out the werewolf population more at random. A newcomer in his twenties wouldn't necessarily have survival skills surpassing an elder veteran, nor would said elder veteran be completely immune to misjudgment and/or bad luck.

Even if a werewolf could live to be a thousand years old, the average lifespan would still be 50-60 on account of all the other werewolves that weren't nearly as lucky. Even the werewolves who have the lifestyle down to a science wouldn't be immune to bad luck.

Terastas wrote:*nods* Animals don't grow old in the wild because once they even start to show signs of their age, they fall behind; the herbivores that can't outrun the carnivores get eaten, and the carnivores that can't run down the herbivores go hungry.

The wild is also more cut-throat, though, with a comparative lack of regular food and medical intervention. A werewolf that only changes occassionally and has healing abilities would more or less negate those problems, though. A werewolf would have plenty of food as a human, automagically heal from some physical injuries, and still have access to doctors as a human.

But it still could be a problem depending on the details, I suppose. If changing into a werewolf saps enough from you that you need to eat a lot, for example, then it could still create a starvation problem (as humans and livestock are generally bad food sources due to being discovered, and stocking up on store-bought food before hand would seriously hurt your wallet). Plus if you couldn't see a doctor for risk of them finding out about your lycanthropy, and your healing abilities were limited, it could create similar conditions to what wild animals have to endure, thus shortening your life span.

Chris wrote:But it still could be a problem depending on the details, I suppose. If changing into a werewolf saps enough from you that you need to eat a lot, for example, then it could still create a starvation problem (as humans and livestock are generally bad food sources due to being discovered, and stocking up on store-bought food before hand would seriously hurt your wallet).

Oh no... are we STILL going by the rule that werewolves would die the minute they so much as lick cauliflowers?

kitetsu wrote:Oh no... are we STILL going by the rule that werewolves would die the minute they so much as lick cauliflowers?

Wouldn't really peg a werewolf as being an herbivore*, myself. But still, considering the amount of food it would be eating, going through gardens or crops would probably raise a similar amount of suspicion as livestock.

* Yeah, I know being an omnivore would work just as well, and humans are omnivores. Still, it's difficult to imagine going hogwild on plants, fruits, and veggies and getting the same amount of sustenance as the meat from animals.

Hmm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmuYTb6ynbg

It seems to me that in order to get a hefty plant-based diet going on, it requires a substantial amount of green and/or leafy things to equal, say, a steak. Better for you in the long run, but not very sustainable if you are eating like a starving man every month.
I've been trying to eat plant-foods recently, and it often doesn't work as desired. I'll munch on an apple, orange, banana, fistful of almonds, blueberries, strawberries, a stalk of celery, and a carrot or two, and by the time I was finished I was even hungrier than before. Granted, it was over the course of an hour and a half or so, but I still grabbed a burger on my way to the library, as there was no way I could last until I got home again.

That said, I think that if you are dealing with a hungry-man werewolf, him being a carnivore is almost as unsustainable as him being a herbivore. There are plenty of small animals in the world, but plants tend to replace themselves quicker.

As an offtopic, but related note, I have partaken of a few raids on backyard gardens. There were only four of us kids, but we went through that place like a swarm of locusts. Carrots, berries, and probably some grass and dandelions as well, nothing escaped unchewed. I imagine a werewolf would accomplish much the same by himself. I feel bad about it now, especially after I have gotten some experience in how much work goes into maintaining a garden. One hungry-hungry werewolf could likely destabilize the local ecosystem in short order, as he eats everything in sight faster than it can replenish itself.

Terastas wrote: It would depend on how you interpreted aging, and whether or not you agreed that lycanthropes are regenerative. If you think of aging as just a gradual decay from overuse, then it could be reversed continually by lycanthropic regeneration. A werewolf may simply reach the age where they would start to grow old, then stop aging altogether.

I don't think of aging as gradual decay from overuse - I subscribe the telomere theory as it makes the most sense. After all, why else should Dolly the Sheep die before her time? Because she was cloned from cells with the telomeres run down, of course. Because all the other cells that later grew from the clone ones (IE, the vast majority of her body) would have been fine and dandy if old age were simply 'gradual decay.'

The only thing lycanthropy couldn't do is keep the werewolf's mind sharp and current with the times. Which would increase a werewolf's chances of dying of unnatural causes as opposed to balancing out their aging.

If lycanthropy did prevent aging it'd keep one's mind sharp (as that lack of sharpness is due to aging) and so long as one remains immersed in culture I think they could keep up very well. There's no culture shock that way - no leaving and then coming back to find that suddenly everyone has a car or telephone or that there's this thing called the 'Internet' that's really big now.

The closest thing to "dying of old age" I think a werewolf would ever come to would be killing themselves once they decide for themselves that they've lived long enough. I put 200+ as my vote even though I could picture lycanthropic regeneration equating to immortality, but the reality is that I simply can't imagine anyone being able (or wanting) to live any longer than that.

I can see some people doing that, but not all. Living forever, I think, is just a matter of perspective. If you can set yourself in the right kind of perspective you wouldn't want to kill yourself.

Aki wrote:If lycanthropy did prevent aging it'd keep one's mind sharp (as that lack of sharpness is due to aging) and so long as one remains immersed in culture I think they could keep up very well. There's no culture shock that way - no leaving and then coming back to find that suddenly everyone has a car or telephone or that there's this thing called the 'Internet' that's really big now.

Only in the sense that it would prevent literal decay like Alzheimer's within the brain. It would not guarantee that the werewolf would remain interested or motivated in the changing times long enough to keep from falling behind.

Mind you that I'm not just referring to the technological aspects of life. The social, political, diplomatic, and economic world changes pretty rapidly too. You can't just restrict yourself to upgrading your compy once every five years, read the instruction manual and presto, you're current -- the rest of the world is changing with the tech too.

Example: Is Iraq an ally or an enemy of the U.S.? The answer has changed in the last ten years, so a lot of people would get this question wrong.

People express frustration and apathy towards the changing world all the time -- they turn off the news and crack open a beer, watch The Bachelorette or play another round of Guitar Hero. The world is changing, but they'd rather keep it continuous, even if that continuity is utter crap -- even if that continuity will lead to a change they won't be able to prevent.

And if you'll permit me to get philosophical, what exactly is the difference between being numb to change and 100% apathetic to the world around you and being dead?

Terastas wrote:

Aki wrote:If lycanthropy did prevent aging it'd keep one's mind sharp (as that lack of sharpness is due to aging) and so long as one remains immersed in culture I think they could keep up very well. There's no culture shock that way - no leaving and then coming back to find that suddenly everyone has a car or telephone or that there's this thing called the 'Internet' that's really big now.

Only in the sense that it would prevent literal decay like Alzheimer's within the brain. It would not guarantee that the werewolf would remain interested or motivated in the changing times long enough to keep from falling behind.

It wouldn't guarantee it, no. But it wouldn't be a guarantee that they would fall out of interest as well.

Mind you that I'm not just referring to the technological aspects of life. The social, political, diplomatic, and economic world changes pretty rapidly too. You can't just restrict yourself to upgrading your compy once every five years, read the instruction manual and presto, you're current -- the rest of the world is changing with the tech too.

Example: Is Iraq an ally or an enemy of the U.S.? The answer has changed in the last ten years, so a lot of people would get this question wrong.

That's why I said they'd have to remain immersed in culture like everyone else. Keep an ear to the ground and all that.

People express frustration and apathy towards the changing world all the time -- they turn off the news and crack open a beer, watch The Bachelorette or play another round of Guitar Hero. The world is changing, but they'd rather keep it continuous, even if that continuity is utter crap -- even if that continuity will lead to a change they won't be able to prevent.

Yes but that's because eventually everyone gets burnt out on reality and needs a bit of escapist fun before they return to reality. But that doesn't mean everyone wants to keep the world the same - lots of people want to change the world.

And if you'll permit me to get philosophical, what exactly is the difference between being numb to change and 100% apathetic to the world around you and being dead?

Because I never said numb, I simply said a different perspective. One can have the big picture in mind - the long timescales and eons of time in mind without being numb and apathetic to what goes on around them. Simply enjoying what you have for what it is and for when you have it rather than lamenting over what is lost and will be lost.

Live in the moment and all that.

...why is there no option for a shorter lifespan than an average human (assuming around 80 years in first world countries)

I would rather believe that they live much shorter lives than normal people. Sure, they can heal wounds faster, but we are talking about flesh wounds, not regrowing limbs or curing cancer or anything. Doesn't the stress of undergoing the shifts cause harm to the overall health after a while of being a werewolf? For me, the shifts, infrequently or otherwise, would be relative to a life of hard drinking, drug abuse, and partying. That kind of lifestyle causes people to "age like dogs."

Meh. I'm not sure that I really see the logic behind a shorter lifespan. If you're going to go with a purely logical interpretation of werewolf physiology, then the amount of cellular regeneration that would happen during shifting would likely wear out the teleometres (or however that's supposed to be spelled -- ask Scott) so fast that a werewolf's lifespan would be measured in shifts, not years. Moreover, a werewolf would probably wear out on a cellular level in a couple of shifts (while true that most of the cells in the body are fully shed every few months or so, that's not entirely true of all cells. and shifting means that you're screwing around with stuff like the skeletal system -- stuff that's supposed to remain fairly static). If on the other paw, you're envisioning a werewolf as a creature that can do these sorts of macro-systemic changes at will without causing significant cellular degredation, then I don't see why cellular degredation resulting from the wear and tear of normal cellular regeneration would affect a werewolf at all.

However it would make for a DARN fine "sci fi" werewolf-creation story. XD *giggles*

Typical werewolf attack:

GROOOOOOOWL!!! *Thump*

"What happened?"
"Um -- I think that was a werewolf, and I think it's dead!"
"You killed it?"
"No. It looks like it died of old age."

I was just wondering why there was no shorter lifespan choice

But, yeah, I see the problem with telomeres. A normal person has them long enough to last until old age, sixties or seventies, before things start slowing down. Even with that, people can live up to the record of 122 years old. By the way, 99% (or upper nineties) of cells are replaced annually, except for the memory cells and some other brain cells

Shifting shouldn't waste telomeres so drastically. It's only a problem if bones are changing, a tail grows, complete reworking of the ears, etc. Really, it's not too much of a problem if just fur and nails grow (which grow already at a pretty quick pace) and the mouth and ears change (ears being of malleable cartillage). The muscle tissue, other bones, fat cells, etc. should be staying the same. And it's still only about twleve shifts per year

But yes, if Scott has countering evidence, I would trust him. I'm just going off of my biology classes

The telomeres are only an issue if you're growing new cells. Cranking out mitosis at a rate of a few billion cells a minute is a bit above and beyond the genetic engineering capability of my plot machinery. Instead, material gets transferred from one cell to another, contractile fibers are stretched or pulled, and blood chemistry temporarily gets really, really screwy as bone calcium is dissolved and redeposited. Werewolves have physiological and histological elements that neither wolves nor genetic-standard humans (humans without lycanthropy or any other modifications) have.

That gets around the aging issue. Still, that also means there is a really, really tiny tail at the end of the coccyx in human form, with some really densely packed dormant cells. It's also one of the areas that's most easily regenerated because of its propensity for rapid and sudden reshaping. It initially annoyed those who were afflicted with lycanthropy accidentally, who would fight against their wolf form and in protest hack off their own tail, only to grow another one. However, it also made "kitsuining" popular in the 2030s--cutting off and regrowing tails several times and then wearing a belt or strap with a bunch of dead, hacked off tails along with one's live one.

I voted immortal since werewolves heal faster why wouldnt their bodies be constantly repairing itself of natural diseases and such ,but hay that's just a thought.